Western Region Carriage Formations/Workings (into/out of London) mid-late 1980s

[MarshLane]

Mike & Dougie,

Many thanks for that, thats really useful.  Dougie we mentioned the other day about the 1H8* books, I've found my old 1H86 book, but it wasn't the one I was thinking of.  This lists loco-hauled departures by origin, I'm sure I had a book (and will still have it somewhere) that split the workings by class and then the diagrams - can anyone enlighten me as to the name?  Im a bit of a loss searching for something that I don't know!!

Rich

[MarshLane]

Guys,

Kevin (commoner) has brought to light an aspect of early HST operation that I wasn't aware of, and is happy for me to share it on the thread.  

 

Loco-Hauled HST trailers

We were talking about the early HST introduction during the 1970s and 1980s, with the fact that all HSTs were 2+7 sets until May 1986, when 10 Laira sets were upgraded to 2+8 formation, complete with a TRUB (Restaurant/Buffet). Kevin added ... HST working did not always follow the booked pattern and there were frequent set swaps at Paddington most days.  The WR internal fleet was tightly diagrammed at that time with very little spare capacity.  It was fairly usual to be a set down at the start of the day's working due to being short of available power cars.  In such circumstances it was usual to find a set of HST trailers employed, loco-hauled with Generator Van (for train supply), and a BG or similar to allow coupling with MkIII stock, a method of operation that formed part of the Region's internal contingency plan.

 

 

This loco-hauled set of Mk3 trailers was generally, although not always, confined to the Bristol route, during the mid-1980s, as delays could be kept to a minimum on the shorter route, with the set being unable to keep to a complete HST diagram.  If there was a shortage of available sets at Old Oak, it usually worked the first down, Bristol, 06.35 or 06.40 from Padd.  Instead of coming back on the 08.45 BTM it would work the 09.20 service.  Sets would be stepped up at Paddington to cover, and the problems would often ease if there were no more failures, and the set booked to go ECS to OOC off the 12.38 arrival from Milford Haven (the 07.45 departure) would remain in service.  Another move, if there were problems in the evening peak, was to put it out on the 17.25 to Weston-S-M.   I believe in 1980/1981 specific trailers were utilised as a result of the late delivery of power cars creating a surplus of coaches, but after that period any spare set was used.

 

Can anyone add any more to this, or provide any examples where the trailers were seen loco-hauled?  Im specifically looking at the mid-1980s, but any point from the introduction of HSTs would allow us to build up a fuller picture. I seem to recall there were Mk2 coaches converted for loco-hauling HST vehicles, but were they just coupling translators? Were the Generator cars Mk1s - the HST trailers only had buckeye couplings of course, with no conventional buffers, and a different electrical system to the loco-hauled Mk3s used on the WCML.

 

The operational background to the Western Region in the 1980s, that is coming out in this thread really makes for interesting reading (well I think so!) and documents in the public domain aspects that might otherwise be little known - thanks to all of you for your continued contributions, hopefully we can get some others from the period to add their recollections or comments too!

 

Rich

Edited July 10, 2017 by MarshLane

[MarshLane]

As an addition to the above, searching around the net, produce a link to another thread on rmWeb about barrier vehicles for movements, which produced three photographs depicting the previously mentioned moves, with a converted BG and a BFK at Reading.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83483-br-ic125-barrier-coach-formations/?p=1383131

A superb example to attempt a conversion on!

 

On the same thread, Mike (The Stationmaster) mentions:

"Excellent stuff, it takes me back because on one occasion I travelled all the way from Temple Meads to Paddington in the generator van as part of a safety assessment!  The train normally had the generator van marshalled Bristol end, incidentally the BG had a B4 bogie at one end and a B5 at the other if memory serves me right." (Post #26)  Later in the thread is another comment (Post #30), which adds more info on the Generator vehicle: "It was not used for van space for several reasons - firstly the matter of security or someone interfering with the genset and secondly the question of fire risk.  Hence the vehicle on the other end had a van area and was for the Guard's use; the gangways to the generator BG were always locked and couldn't be opened without parting it from the train."

 

But as before, any other info on the vehicles, their use, sightings etc.. would be most welcome.

 

Rich

[MarshLane]

I've also found a reference to the sleepers, although no mention of any specific year, but the piece is talking about the mid-1980s - where by the six day coaches (BSO, TSO, TSO, TSO, TSOT, FO) off the overnight sleeper, on arrival at Penzance, would work a Penzance - Paddington - Manchester - Paddington - Penzance circuit.  Presumably that would have been a Saturday operation, as I doubt the set could have got back to Penzance in time to be cleaned, watered and attached to the sleepers again?  There being no sleepers on a Saturday night.

 

For anyone with an interest in carriage formations on the Western, especially in Devon and Cornwall, have a look at this thread

 

Rich

[Rivercider]

The 1986 Platform 5 book shows there were 10 class 08s at Old Oak Common, and 6 class 31s,

 

08480, 08523, 08634, 08651, 08818, 08821, 08936, 08944, 08947, 08948.

 

31401, 31402, 31465, 31466, 31467, 31468

 

Also 18 class 47s,  and 16 class 50s 50021-26 50030-40,

 

cheers

Edited July 10, 2017 by Rivercider

[eastwestdivide]

...

 

Class 33s

Observation received notes Class 33s Nos. 33008 and 33208 were seen at Paddington on 17th May 1984.  What would they have arrived/departed on?  No information on whether they were separate workings or double-headed.

On the subject of 33s at Paddington around then, there was a FO working up from Plymouth for a 33 and 5 Mk1s, discussed in this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93633-class-33s-plymouth-to-paddington/

[MarshLane]

On the subject of 33s at Paddington around then, there was a FO working up from Plymouth for a 33 and 5 Mk1s, discussed in this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93633-class-33s-plymouth-to-paddington/

Hi EWD,

Welcome to the discussion! There was a diagram I believe that brought a Laira 46 to Paddington on a Friday, before they were withdrawn in 1984. I wonder if this was the replacement?

 

Rich

[MarshLane]

The 1986 Platform 5 book shows there were 10 class 08s at Old Oak Common, and 6 class 31s,

 

08480, 08523, 08634, 08651, 08818, 08821, 08936, 08944, 08947, 08948.

 

31401, 31402, 31465, 31466, 31467, 31468

 

Also 18 class 47s, and 16 class 50s 50021-26 50030-40,

 

cheers

That's great. Do you happen to know which 47s were there? I've got an '84 and '87 P5 books, need to acquire an '85/'86 edition!

 

Presumably other 31s would turn up as well. Having worked in on trip freights or parcels.

 

Rich

[Flood]

Mike & Dougie,

Many thanks for that, thats really useful.  Dougie we mentioned the other day about the 1H8* books, I've found my old 1H86 book, but it wasn't the one I was thinking of.  This lists loco-hauled departures by origin, I'm sure I had a book (and will still have it somewhere) that split the workings by class and then the diagrams - can anyone enlighten me as to the name?  Im a bit of a loss searching for something that I don't know!!

Rich

Loco Hauled Travel, from 1989 called Diagram Diaries. 1979 and 1980 were "To The Last Drop".

Edited July 10, 2017 by Flood

[Banger Blue]

Mike & Dougie,

Many thanks for that, thats really useful.  Dougie we mentioned the other day about the 1H8* books, I've found my old 1H86 book, but it wasn't the one I was thinking of.  This lists loco-hauled departures by origin, I'm sure I had a book (and will still have it somewhere) that split the workings by class and then the diagrams - can anyone enlighten me as to the name?  Im a bit of a loss searching for something that I don't know!!

 

Rich

Rich

 

The other books I have, which have exactly what you describe are called "Loco-Hauled Travel 19xx-19xx"

It would appear up to 1984 they were published by 'Platform 5' and 84 onwards by 'Metro Publishing'

 

The 1H8x books were compiled by Ken Howard and published by 'Peter Watts Publishing' and the books mentioned above all written by Neil Webster.

 

[Banger Blue]

That's great. Do you happen to know which 47s were there? I've got an '84 and '87 P5 books, need to acquire an '85/'86 edition!

Presumably other 31s would turn up as well. Having worked in on trip freights or parcels.

Rich

From the P5 combined volume 1986:

 

OC 47's:

 

477, 484, 500, 501, 508, 509, 512, 513, 515, 549, 609, 611, 612, 613, 618, 620, 621, 622, 623, 624, 625, 626, 627 & 628.

[Rivercider]

That's great. Do you happen to know which 47s were there? I've got an '84 and '87 P5 books, need to acquire an '85/'86 edition!

 

Presumably other 31s would turn up as well. Having worked in on trip freights or parcels.

 

Rich

Bath Road 31s would somteimes work parcels to and from Paddington, by that date only 4 class 31/4s remained at BR, 31403, 31404, 31405, 31406,

 

cheers

[Rugd1022]

From the P5 combined volume 1986:

 

OC 47's:

 

477, 484, 500, 501, 508, 509, 512, 513, 515, 549, 609, 611, 612, 613, 618, 620, 621, 622, 623, 624, 625, 626, 627 & 628.

 

Happy memories amongst that lot.... IKB, Great Western, Great Britain, Albion, North Star, Colossus (think so anyway), G.J.Churchward... before it received its full sized brass plates the latter ran for a while with small white vinyl numbers under the Driver's side window... and this is how I like to remember dear old Padd, grime and no wires...

 

 

And if you'll forgive a moment of pure indulgence, I know this is twenty years before the timeframe of the thread but I can't resist posting this here, some things at Padd didn't change for decades, namely the comings and goings of loco hauled coaching stock, the general grime and ever present air of diesel fumes, amply illustrated by none other than D1000 'Western Enterprise' idling away furiously in Ben Darby Snr's photo from  1966, during its short period in maroon with its original alloy crests... note also the Hawksworth vehicle beyond... pure unadulterated Western Region nostalgia...!

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Rugd1022

[D1059]

 

Can anyone add any more to this, or provide any examples where the trailers were seen loco-hauled?  Im specifically looking at the mid-1980s, but any point from the introduction of HSTs would allow us to build up a fuller picture. I seem to recall there were Mk2 coaches converted for loco-hauling HST vehicles, but were they just coupling translators? Were the Generator cars Mk1s - the HST trailers only had buckeye couplings of course, with no conventional buffers, and a different electrical system to the loco-hauled Mk3s used on the WCML.

 

 

 

Rich

 

 

The MKIII trailers required a generator van as the ETH system wasn't compatible with locos

 

An example in the SW - generator van at the front, translator at the back. The generator van was a converted Mk1 BG

 

Rattery Thunder by Stephen Dance, on Flickr

Edited July 10, 2017 by D1059

[MarshLane]

Happy memories amongst that lot.... IKB, Great Western, Great Britain, Albion, North Star, Colossus (think so anyway), G.J.Churchward... before it received its full sized brass plates the latter ran for a while with small white vinyl numbers under the Driver's side window... and this is how I like to remember dear old Padd, grime and no wires...

 

 

 

As you say, some great names and memories!  Wasn't G.J. Churchward 47079?  Think 628 was Sir Daniel Gooch?

 

Thats four 47s that are a must for the new layout!!

 

Rich

[MarshLane]

Loco Hauled Travel, from 1989 called Diagram Diaries. 1979 and 1980 were "To The Last Drop".

 

 

Rich

 

The other books I have, which have exactly what you describe are called "Loco-Hauled Travel 19xx-19xx"

It would appear up to 1984 they were published by 'Platform 5' and 84 onwards by 'Metro Publishing'

 

The 1H8x books were compiled by Ken Howard and published by 'Peter Watts Publishing' and the books mentioned above all written by Neil Webster.

 

IMG_0906.JPG

 

Dougie/Flood,

Many thanks - yes Loco Hauled Travel, thats what I was thinking of.  Looking on eBay its the Winter 1985-1986 edition I have, when I can find it.  Shall have to keep my eyes open for the Summer editions either side of that!

 

Today what with websites and gen groups etc, we tend to forget there was info out there on the booked workings and the like if you looked for it, back in the day.  Now, whose had the incentive reading all this to build a time machine, somebody must have a spare Delorean somewhere we could use . Bags, the passenger seat ... oh and destination selector

 

Rich

[MarshLane]

 

 

The MKIII trailers required a generator van as the ETH system wasn't compatible with locos

 

An example in the SW - generator van at the front, translator at the back. The generator van was a converted Mk1 BG

 

Rattery Thunder by Stephen Dance, on Flickr

 

Stephen,

Lovely shot - great to see an example of the Gen Set actually working - for further reference, in case Flickr ever disappears, that was 50019 Ramilies on the 14.45 Paddington to Plymouth service on 23rd June 1983.

 

 

Was there just the one Generator Van converted from a BG then which was shared between depots as needed - or more?

 

Rich

[Rugd1022]

As you say, some great names and memories!  Wasn't G.J. Churchward 47079?  Think 628 was Sir Daniel Gooch?

 

Thats four 47s that are a must for the new layout!!

 

Rich

 

Sorry Rich, yes you're right 628 was Danny Gooch, how could I possibly have got it wrong, oh the shame..!

 

Something I don't think has been mentioned is the propelling of stock out of Padd as well as in, which occasionally happened if there was no other loco to pull the stock out to release a loco trapped on the blocks. We did this a few times late at night with two or three carriage shunters at points along the train calling us back with Bardic lamps, I remember doing it with 31 117 and straining to see their hand signals but we managed it, propelling the train all the way out to the sidings at Royal Oak then running round before taking the lot to Old Oak.

[MarshLane]

Bath Road 31s would somteimes work parcels to and from Paddington, by that date only 4 class 31/4s remained at BR, 31403, 31404, 31405, 31406,

 

cheers

 

 

I've yet to fully get my head around the Parcels traffic, as well as the TPO workings and formations, but presumably anything could have appeared on those from Canton 47s, Bath Road 47s/50s, Laira 47s/50s?  Did any Peaks ever put in an appearance on Parcels traffic?  Im assuming all postal workings were South Wales, or the South West from Paddington, anything for Birmingham/West Midlands would presumably have come out of Euston?

 

Rich

[MarshLane]

Sorry Rich, yes you're right 628 was Danny Gooch, how could I possibly have got it wrong, oh the shame..!

 

Something I don't think has been mentioned is the propelling of stock out of Padd as well as in, which occasionally happened if there was no other loco to pull the stock out to release a loco trapped on the blocks. We did this a few times late at night with two or three carriage shunters at points along the train calling us back with Bardic lamps, I remember doing it with 31 117 and straining to see their hand signals but we managed it, propelling the train all the way out to the sidings at Royal Oak then running round before taking the lot to Old Oak.

 

Oh as you posted such an atmospheric picture of the Western, we'll forgive you on this occasion Lol!

 

Im guessing propelling would have been more of the exception than the rule, Kevin (commoner) commented that he never saw it happen during his time at Paddington in the mid-1980s.

 

What was the purpose of Royal Oak Carriage Sidings, was it just a way of releasing stock to be hauled back in on relatively quick turn-arounds without going out to OC, or was it for parcels vehicles day time and overnight stabling of sets not needing maintenance?  I've acquired a 1988 Quail of the Western, and that's showing about four siding roads at Royal Oak?

 

Rich

[Rugd1022]

The Sidings up at Royal Oak were used to stable empty stock and locos awaiting a path into Padd, on the ECS jobs if you were released from one of the platforms light engine you might have to wait an hour or so for the next set of stock to arrive so you'd be sent up there to sit and watch the world go by for a while. Many's the time you'd fall asleep and wake up to see the signal off in front of you! In years gone by parcels vans would be stabled there for a while if platform 1a (the old parcels platform under the red canopy) was already occupied.

 

There were three numbered sidings plus the adjacent E&C line which was bi-directional...

 

 

I've got tons of photos around Padd and Old Oak, mostly pre-85 though, I'll have a root about and see what else I can find that's relative to the operations being discussed in this thread.

 

 

[MarshLane]

The Sidings up at Royal Oak were used to stable empty stock and locos awaiting a path into Padd, on the ECS jobs if you were released from one of the platforms light engine you might have to wait an hour or so for the next set of stock to arrive so you'd be sent up there to sit and watch the world go by for a while. Many's the time you'd fall asleep and wake up to see the signal off in front of you! In years gone by parcels vans would be stabled there for a while if platform 1a (the old parcels platform under the red canopy) was already occupied.

 

There were three numbered sidings plus the adjacent E&C line which was bi-directional...

 

I've got tons of photos around Padd and Old Oak, mostly pre-85 though, I'll have a root about and see what else I can find that's relative to the operations being discussed in this thread.

 

 

That would be great thanks.  The more images of the Paddington / Old Oak area 1983-1987 ish the better!

 

So am I right in thinking that the road to the left of the peg, just left of the middle 50, is the E&C line, with the left hand 50 sat on one of the Royal Oak Sidings?

 

Rich

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry Rich, yes you're right 628 was Danny Gooch, how could I possibly have got it wrong, oh the shame..!

 

Something I don't think has been mentioned is the propelling of stock out of Padd as well as in, which occasionally happened if there was no other loco to pull the stock out to release a loco trapped on the blocks. We did this a few times late at night with two or three carriage shunters at points along the train calling us back with Bardic lamps, I remember doing it with 31 117 and straining to see their hand signals but we managed it, propelling the train all the way out to the sidings at Royal Oak then running round before taking the lot to Old Oak.

 

Propelling in was much more interesting -  in a hair-raising sort of way

[The Stationmaster]

That would be great thanks.  The more images of the Paddington / Old Oak area 1983-1987 ish the better!

 

So am I right in thinking that the road to the left of the peg, just left of the middle 50, is the E&C line, with the left hand 50 sat on one of the Royal Oak Sidings?

 

Rich

Actually their official name was Paddington Sidings.  Royal Oak ceased to have any involvement at all with Paddington working, or indeed WR train working, from the 1967 resignalling.

[Rugd1022]

That would be great thanks.  The more images of the Paddington / Old Oak area 1983-1987 ish the better!

 

So am I right in thinking that the road to the left of the peg, just left of the middle 50, is the E&C line, with the left hand 50 sat on one of the Royal Oak Sidings?

 

Rich

 

Yes, looking at the pic with the three 50s, from left to right it's 3,2, and 1 sidings, Up E&C (bi-directional) Down Main, Up Main (which the middle 50 is on and hidden behind its train is the middle siding), then it's Down Relief, Up Relief and the two Down E&C lines which were also bi-directional, with the Hammersmith & City lines adjacent to them, which of course burrowed down under the GW and resurfaced on the downside before curving round into Westbourne Park station.

 

A handy book to find on ebay is John Vaughan's 'This Is Paddington' (Ian Allen softback, 1982) which has some great shots of the are plus track layouts as well.