Dear Hattons: Time for a "proper" Autocoach please.

[Legend]

Why rule out Hornby though. Their Colletts were superb, they may well be considering a non corridor range for GWR modellers , in the same way as they have non corridor ranges for LNER and LMS. an autocoach could be an extension of this . Critically , at a more reasonable price than most, except perhaps Oxford. I don't believe for one minute that it's a limited prototype that won't sell in volume.

[Clearwater]

If that were the case then, why produce 20 different variants of the warwell? I know that the warwells are popular, but I think it's now more of people seeing the buzz, liking how the prodcut turned out, and finding a way to make it work on their layout. I understand they are still in use, so there is a far more practical application for them.

 

 

Honestly, I wonder what kind of crowdfunding is required to start a commission for any stock in particular. That may in the end be the best approach.

On your first point, the marginal cost of changes in tooling is probably justified for the number of variants proposed. The changes can be built in during the design process. There will be a limited number in each production run but overall, as can be seen by the cost, a Warwell is simpler than a coach or loco. Given a choice will people buy the more correct item for their period? Some will; some won't. Trick for manufacturers is to balance those constituencies. We'll see in due course which items stock out first from Hattons. That'll tell us which was most popular.

 

Crowd funding - been discussed on a number of other threads. The quad art one is worth a read. Without a "name"/ trackrecord, who's going to commit their cash? If you need say £50k to get a model produced, that's an awful lot of £25-50 deposits...

[The Johnster]

It was the year of the Warwell, and the Carflat, and the Toad.  Everybody was doing them...

 

My two penn'orth, and that probably is a fair measure of it's value, is that a few people wishlisting on a web forum do not constitute a market, but they might indicate the possibility of one.  If warwells are selling well, I do not understand the market as they are a not an item that saw much generalised common ordinary use even in the post-war era they are restricted to, running in block trains on military traffic.  The carflat makes more sense, and taps into the toy car market as well, great play value for kids as Triang realised with it's double decker many years ago.  And toads with a decent specification are a no-brianer,  

 

How does this relate to auto trailers and B sets?  Well, what we seem to be doing here is trying to second guess the possible future intentions of commissioners and manufacturers, and bend them to our will (mwa ha ha ha ha), in the belief that they read the thread and take some notice of it.  No doubt they read such threads as part of general market research, but how much notice they take is a whole nother matter, as they have many other factors to consider besides listening to customer wishlists, not least that the market demographic represented here is to some increasing extent composed of elderly people on fixed incomes, at a time of increasing economic stringency, some of whom will be dead or past modelling by the time your product gets to market (it's being so cheerful as keeps a body going, you know).  I am not a marketeer, nor particularly business minded, so have little concept of what is involved in financing, researching, developing, producing, importing, distributing, and selling a model in order to produce a return on your investment and have enough left over to keep the shareholders off your back. I suspect there is more involved then we are mostly aware of, though.  Producing anything new is a gamble, even if you tart it up by calling it enterprise, and it is in recognition of this that we allow the makers to charge us more than it cost them to make the thing; they took a chance and could have come unstuck!

 

I would be interested in a crowd funding or similar project (this is not an offer to undertake, organise, or facilitate it) to have commissioned and produced an auto trailer of almost any type not previously available in 00 gauge rtr form, with a particular desire for a Diagram N.  I have hopes that Dapol may consider this in 4mm, as they are already producing a very good one in 7mm, which means the research and a good number of the developing and producing issues are translatable to the smaller scale and they would not be starting from scratch.  But almost any auto trailer will do, whether purpose built, converted from steam railmotor,, or originally designed to work with steam railmotors.  All of them were fairly widely spread geographically across the GW's territory (except perhaps the Plymouth area gangwayed 70 footers), and had long working lives (compared to Baccy's A38) that spanned into the 1950s, though few if any lasted long enough to carry 1958 lined maroon livery; some had afterlives as staff and tool vans, static messrooms, classrooms and such, as their steps made them very suitable for such use; this was the route that those in preservation mostly took.  This allows a good bit of scope for 'limited edition' versions with a variety of liveries and bogies.  An auto train could consist of up to four vehicles, so there is plenty of scope for repeat sales and sales to punters such as myself who already own several.  But the lack of suitable locomotives pre 1930s is a problem.

 

I would not be interested in such a project for a Collett bow-ended B set,  The poll results show how out of touch I am, but it's a market more limited to small branch lines than auto trailers which were often used on mailn line stoppers, and once you've bought one B set that's probably all you're gonna need.  Moreover, ownership of a B set is likely to dissuade you from buying other GW non-gangwayed stock.  The Airix/Dapol/Hornby whatever it is has already flooded the market; it's not a bad model and can be worked up, obviously nobody'd object to a better version, but H'll probably re-release theirs as soon as anyone tried to move in on their territory, and undercut 'em.  I might show some interest in a flat-ended version; these were not run as permanently coupled sets like the bowenders, and have a possibility of use as single vehicles, particularly if they were an item in a range of similar non-gangwayed compartment stock comparable to those now available for LMS and LNER modellers.  The Southern is better catered to than the Western in the form of non-gangwaye stock, though plenty of GW locos suitable to pull it are out there; imagine being able to say that 20 years ago!  

 

I think we'd be somewhat optimistic expecting any new rolling stock releases from Hornby for a while; they need to consolidate.  Bachmann have committed to the Hawkworth A38 and show no interest in GW non gangwayed stock beyond that.  I can't see Ox having access to the sort of finance that B and H have, and although non gangwayed stock would match the Dean Goods, I don't think they can do it until returns from that and other projects filter through, at teat another year before they start and several before the thing would be available, if they are even considering it; they may well be of the view that they are producing plenty of wagons for the Dean to pull.  The kit route is not in a good place at the moment, with questionable availability of all the appropriate items, nor do all of us have the skillsets or confidence to build and finish them to rtr standards.  if you are in the market for an auto trailer other than the rtr already available, your choice is very limited.  Kits, sadly, seem to be in a general decline these days, and look to be becoming a thing of the past very rapidly.  It is difficult to even find out what is actually currently available on some websites!

 

If someone wants to have a go, I'll stump up a deposit for anything used in South Wales during the BR period.

Edited July 19, 2017 by The Johnster

[Legend]

You are correct Hornby have to consolidate and produce models that will sell to the model railway enthusiast. While their range has contracted this year, it is I think now clear that UK model railways is still one of their best lines. I'd be developing that and I don't think you will see a curtailment of new detailed models. What you may see is some older models rested, less immediate second runs of things and some really old models that were in just to keep the range disappearing.

[Hattons Dave]

Hi all,

 

Thanks for all the suggestions and ideas. We're always on the lookout for future projects.

 

If you have any ideas or proposals then feel free to email them over to us using ideas@hattons.co.uk

 

I'm sure you appreciate that we can't really discuss any future projects until after they are announced but always enjoy hearing from people regardless.

 

Cheers,

Dave

[Ian Hargrave]

Why rule out Hornby though. Their Colletts were superb, they may well be considering a non corridor range for GWR modellers , in the same way as they have non corridor ranges for LNER and LMS. an autocoach could be an extension of this . Critically , at a more reasonable price than most, except perhaps Oxford. I don't believe for one minute that it's a limited prototype that won't sell in volume.

Problem with that is that two new releases of the existing tooling have just arrived and I can't see a new one on the horizon in all honesty.Yes,Of course Hornby would do an excellent job.Despite a degree of scepticism that I read on some of the above posts,I firmly believe that there is a market for a number of versions of the autocoach to current standards.To repeat Rails are doing it with the dynamometer car..taking a £50 deposit with balance of £75 on delivery.We have two auto fitted r-t-r tanks to high standards of accuracy.......yet some seem content to push or pull stock of Airfix or Dapol vintage with them.We undeniably need something a lot better please and there is surely a market for it......or do we keep paying out silly money on eBay for antiques ?

[Legend]

Problem with that is that two new releases of the existing tooling have just arrived and I can't see a new one on the horizon in all honesty.Yes,Of course Hornby would do an excellent job.Despite a degree of scepticism that I read on some of the above posts,I firmly believe that there is a market for a number of versions of the autocoach to current standards.To repeat Rails are doing it with the dynamometer car..taking a £50 deposit with balance of £75 on delivery.We have two auto fitted r-t-r tanks to high standards of accuracy.......yet some seem content to push or pull stock of Airfix or Dapol vintage with them.We undeniably need something a lot better please and there is surely a market for it......or do we keep paying out silly money on eBay for antiques ?

Why I'm keen on Hornby doing it , is that it will have a price closer to £50 , based on their Collet pricing , not the £125 required for the Rails Dynamometer car. There's got to be more people requiring an Autocoach than a Dynamometer (can't even say it) car.

 

I also have a fear that if enough people pay for these limited editions at these prices all we will do is drive cost up , because that will be become the norm for new coaches, regardless of the actual price of producing them

[tomparryharry]

Must be a difficult decision for a manufacturer. There's already  a fair few types of Airfix/Mainline knocking about. I'd guess, due to the lack of 'exclusivity' about the autocoach, once the announcement is made, everybody and their dog will jump in, and dilute the market. Because of this, any mainstream RTR maker would think twice before committing to releasing a model like this. 

 

My guess that it might be turned out unannounced, bit of a surprise package. Baccy don't appear interested: Hornby are turning out some first-class kit at the moment, so I'd like to see Hornby pull a blinder. My money, however, goes to either Oxford Rail, or DJ models. Oxford would no doubt like to turn out some excellent kit, and go a long way to redeem the Dean Goods (now gaining acceptance in the wider market), and DJM Models. Why? Well, I'd guess that Dave might, just might, put out a high fidelity model to compliment his 14xx autotank. I don't expect any change of £100-150 from a model of this quality, but I think, as a hobby, we're going this way. Given the views of some of my more learned modellers, that's about par for the course.

 

Then, there's crowdfunding. Perhaps we would need a solid indication, (with identifiable backing, of course).

 

Or, perhaps there might be someone in the wings....

 

Ian.

[The Johnster]

You are correct Hornby have to consolidate and produce models that will sell to the model railway enthusiast. While their range has contracted this year, it is I think now clear that UK model railways is still one of their best lines. I'd be developing that and I don't think you will see a curtailment of new detailed models. What you may see is some older models rested, less immediate second runs of things and some really old models that were in just to keep the range disappearing.

I hope you are right, but I don't agree.  I'm not going to try and second guess what H do next, but consolidation to me suggests not risking new models, but concentrating on proven sellers.  This might lead to re-toolings of the auto (maybe it'll decide if it's an A28 or an A30) and the B set, but we might have to wait a bit for my desired range of non-gangwayed Colletts.  I think you are right in that older models will be dropped, but H have a poor track record in this regard, and 2721s and even 1956 vintage 08s on Jinty chassis are still popping up in train sets.  They are cheap as chips to produce and assemble, and turn a profit.

[The Johnster]

Point of information: that old Airfix model is of the A28/A30.  The A27 is slightly shorter and apparently can be made from the A28/A30 but involves far more cutting and shutting than most of today's modellers would contemplate.  It would scare the bejasus out of me.

 

As it comes from the box the A28/A30 has the recessed driver's door of the A30 and the less than flush glazing of the A28.  Lazer glazing may be had for the A30 and the Dart Castings detailing kit is still available, containing among other useful parts a set of decently etched folding steps which would also enhance the Bachmann Hawksworth.  The old Airfix model will not suit the pre-1930s but it is considerably better than nothing.  I believe that kits are available for some older prototypes.  Don't be scared ...

 

Chris

I stand corrected.

[phil-b259]

Bachmann's Hawksworth Autocoach doesn't fit the bill?

 

Not if you wish to model the pre WW2 era.

 

While I know the late 1950s / 1960s 'Transition era' is supposed to be the most popular era amongst modellers at present that is no excuse to belittle a perfectly reasonable request. Whether Hattons or anyone else actually decides to take up the suggestion is of course a matter for them.

[coachmann]

My bet would be on the slightly earlier GWR A26 or A28 autocoach that could use Hornby's existing 7' plate bogies off of their Colletts. They still lasted almost to the end of autocoach working.  Despite the sales of thousands of auto-fitted 14XX and 64XX locos, is there a healthy market for  a 1930's autocoach? Hard to say when folk were dashing out to buy an old Airfix/Hornby while eschewing the Bachmann post-war coach on account of price. 

[PaulCheffus]

For some individuals more than others.  I imagine my follies into this would end with frustration and a model sitting in a trash can.

Hi

 

Its called learning by making mistakes. How many of the current modellers do you think never made a mistake and binned something?

 

You start with something simple to build your confidence and skills. Then select something harder for each subsequent model.

 

There is too much "I can't do that" these days and if you never try you'll never know what you can actually achieve.

 

To quote Eleanor Roosevelt - "Do one thing everyday that scares you".

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[grahame]

For some individuals more than others.  I imagine my follies into this would end with frustration and a model sitting in a trash can.

You could always commission someone to undertake the work for you or to build a kit of one. It would certainly be cheaper than commissioning a RTR version with the inherent heavy tooling costs.

 

Alternatively, with some practice (rather than dismissing the idea of undertaking a little constructional modelling) you will probably find less frustration and eventually will be able to turn out models, not just autocoaches, that are not available as RTR.

 

G

[The Johnster]

Is it not possible to detail and paint the Hornby one in to a more appropriate livery?

 

G.

AFAIK the livery is correct for most if not all versions of this model which have been produced over the last 40 years since Airfix introduced it.  It has been in almost continuous production throughout that time and is a proven seller. Mine is in 1949/56 BR blood and custard, absolutely correct and well enough applied for a 35 year old model.  It isn't up to modern standards, which shows alongside the Baccy A38, but it's not bad!  Painting into a more appropriate livery is quite feasible.  The main issue if you are modelling the A30, which the coach is numbered as, is that the windows are recessed to the correct depth for an A27; so what, you say, but an A27 was shorter and ran on different bogies.  The bogies it ran on are the 7' ones used under Hornby's Collett main line coaches, but mount on differently spaced pivots to the A30s correct 9' ones.  An A27 is not only shorter, but has a flush fitted driver's door, whereas the A30's is recessed.  I regard my auto trailer as an A30, as it is correct in all but window depth which I can live with.  Coupled next to the Baccy A38, it is not as crisply mouled, does not have the same fine printed details, is a bit basic under the floor, and the steps are nowhere near as good. Baccy provide separate lamp irons, but to compare a 1977 model with a 2017 one is bound to show up deficiencies.  I don't run them together, and they both look fine to me.

 

Back to liveries, A30s were introduced in the 30s, and carried 1920 livery on introduction, 30s shirtbutton related shortly after, 1942-7 lined brown austerity, 1947/8 Hawksworth double lined choc/cream, 1948/9 early BR choc/cream with several different numbering styles, 1949/56 crimson/cream until 1954 when Mr Riddles complained to Swindon about the use of an express passenger livery on an auto trailer, so 1954/6 plain crimson, 1956/8 plain maroon, and 1958 lined maroon until withdrawal.  Not all vehicles carried all liveries and some 'skipped' a livery between repaints, especially but by no means exclusively the 1954/6 and 1956/8 liveries.  The only rtr auto trailer I am aware of that carries a certifiably 'incorrect' livery is the Baccy A38 in GWR livery (they were not introduced until 1949 in crimson/cream) which is correct for a preserved example incorrectly painted in GWR livery.

[The Johnster]

Not if you wish to model the pre WW2 era.

 

While I know the late 1950s / 1960s 'Transition era' is supposed to be the most popular era amongst modellers at present that is no excuse to belittle a perfectly reasonable request. Whether Hattons or anyone else actually decides to take up the suggestion is of course a matter for them.

Or post war GWR.

[Ian Hargrave]

Not if you wish to model the pre WW2 era.

 

While I know the late 1950s / 1960s 'Transition era' is supposed to be the most popular era amongst modellers at present that is no excuse to belittle a perfectly reasonable request. Whether Hattons or anyone else actually decides to take up the suggestion is of course a matter for them.

 

Or post war GWR.

 

With a choice of several liveries...plain GWR "wartime" brown being a notable absentee from current r-t-r liveries. Shame there seems to be a lack of era awareness around

[The Johnster]

My bet would be on the slightly earlier GWR A26 or A28 autocoach that could use Hornby's existing 7' plate bogies off of their Colletts. They still lasted almost to the end of autocoach working.  Despite the sales of thousands of auto-fitted 14XX and 64XX locos, is there a healthy market for  a 1930's autocoach? Hard to say when folk were dashing out to buy an old Airfix/Hornby while eschewing the Bachmann post-war coach on account of price. 

I doubt Hornby would be interested in an A26; 70'long and a lot of overhang at the ends is not a good recipe for reliable running on train set curves... and an A28 is too close to the A30 they've already bot.  I think the market for 1930s and later trailers is pretty saturated, but there may be an opening for an A44 on the back of a range of non-gangwayed Collietts.

Edited July 19, 2017 by The Johnster

[Legend]

Well at leastDave from Hattons has acknowledged the thread. So you maybe onto something

[Clearwater]

Why I'm keen on Hornby doing it , is that it will have a price closer to £50 , based on their Collet pricing , not the £125 required for the Rails Dynamometer car. There's got to be more people requiring an Autocoach than a Dynamometer (can't even say it) car.

 

I also have a fear that if enough people pay for these limited editions at these prices all we will do is drive cost up , because that will be become the norm for new coaches, regardless of the actual price of producing them

A target price of £50 from Hornby may be wishful thinking. They'll have sold thousands of the bow Enders and those coaches share many common components. Whilst as coachmann points out, there will be some synergy with what they've recently designed, it will be the case that any producer of an autocoach will be recovering the cost over a smaller sales run so overall price will almost certainly be higher.

 

As has been discussed before, it's a free world. If you don't like the price, don't buy. It's an inherent feature of capitalism that any producer of goods will seek to maximise the price of them. iF they think the market clears at £65, that's what they will charge. If it doesn't, they can reduce their prices. Selling out at £50 when you could have sold the same number of £65 leaves money on the table. Better to start high and maybe end up discounting the last 10% to get an average price of £57.50 or whatever. We may not like that as consumers and of course we want things as cheap as possible but these are businesses who exist to make profit to pay their staff and owners.

 

Think you can do it cheaper? Nothing's stopping you doing the research, commissioning cads, contacting manufacturers, establishing a distribution model, marketing the models etc. If you can do it cheaper, then all power to your elbow and good luck!

[rue_d_etropal]

There is always 3D printing. For older coaches probably only alternative to scratchbuilding or kit building. I have already done the O, O1, P and R type steam railmotors, plan to do others, and have the drawings for the trailers. Which would be the most popular of the early trailers? The one preserved is one I am considering, but I am currently jumping around the railways to give some variety of choice(and I prefer to do something different). Once one design is done, it is relatively easy to do similar designs. Sometimes it is just a case of moving doors and windows.

I wouldn't hold out much hope for the r2r market, odd ones like the dynameter car are just that, odd ones which have the appeal. I don't know how much actual market reseach was done, but the first most people heard was the announcement this year, and ability to pre-order.

[coachmann]

There is or was a kit by BSL for the GWR A30 flush sided autotrailer with pressed inset doors to save some uncomfortable donkeywork. The kit was in aluminium with cast whitemetal ends and it could be assembled with Evostik. A cheapo Airfix autocoach could provide a neat interior, although the problem for many is the painting and lining.

[The Johnster]

There is or was a kit by BSL for the GWR A30 flush sided autotrailer with pressed inset doors to save some uncomfortable donkeywork. The kit was in aluminium with cast whitemetal ends and it could be assembled with Evostik. A cheapo Airfix autocoach could provide a neat interior, although the problem for many is the painting and lining.

 

Googling BSL takes you to Phoenix website, and a range of GWR coaches is listed.  However, I would not vouch for it's reliability as a guide to available kits as the site has not been updated since 2010.  This is fairly typical of the current situation with regard to kits, and I'm wary of sending money to concerns which, with the best will in the world, are likely to cease to exist at any time without notice.

 

KIts are not, in my view, a viable alternative to rtr in the current situation.

[Ozexpatriate]

I did suggest to the Cornish crowd (am I allowed to quote them on a Hattons thread???) that a useful addition might be a steam railmotor trailer which could then with a little tooling adjustment be changed into the autocoach they became. I also suggested that the steam railmotor could be adjusted to an autocoach. It was never confirmed but I don't think the proposed tooling allows this easily.

I think that just because the original was converted into something else, like a railmotor trailer -to- autocoach, doesn't automatically mean that model tooling can be likewise adapted.

 

It would mean less research was required and a lot of design data will be common, but in all likelihood the tools themselves may differ sufficiently enough to require new tooling.

[Miss Prism]

The bodywork 'cutting and shutting' when the SRMs were converted to autotrailers was often complex, and somewhat adhoc (which is why so many different autotrailer conversion diagrams existed).

Edited July 19, 2017 by Miss Prism