GWR & LNWR Pre-grouping 4mm locos workbench

[Brassey]

This thread records the progress on the building of the motive power for my layout on the North to West line.  This was LNWR/GWR joint and therefore I'm building stock for both. 

 

I thought I would start with Great Western Dean Goods.  These have been on my workbench for some time.  

 

First on the workbench is 2478 which was built in 1896 with an S4 boiler and did not receive a belpaire B4 until the grouping (5/1924).

 

It had the wide footplate and plain rods.  In 1912 it was shedded at Worcester.  

 

Based on the Mallard kit etches, this one has a High Level DG chassis in P4 with dummy valve gear.  As can be seen from the pic,  the centre splashers are slightly narrower and butt up against the inner splashers on the chassis.  (The Comet chassis had these too but did the real thing have inner splashers?) I'll fit the front splashers once I have sorted the smokebox as they butt up to this as can been seen from images of the preserved DG.

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Brassey
updated

[Edwardian]

This is a topic I look forward to seeing develop.  A very nice start.

[Colin parks]

There being much interest in the Great Western Dean Goods at the moment, I thought I would start my own workbench by posting my own take on these.  

 

Currently on the workbench is 2478 which was built in 1896 with an S4 boiler and did not receive a belpaire B4 until the grouping (5/1924).

 

It had the wide footplate and plain rods.  In 1912 it was shedded at Worcester.  

 

Based on the Mallard kit etches, this one has a High Level DG chassis in P4 with dummy valve gear.  As can be seen from the pic,  the centre splashers are slightly narrower and butt up against the inner splashers on the chassis.  (The Comet chassis had these too but did the real thing have inner splashers?) I'll fit the front splashers once I have sorted the smokebox as they butt up to this as can been seen from images of the preserved DG.

 

IMG_1586.jpg

That looks very nicely constructed Brassey.  For a moment I thought you werebuilding the loco in P4 and S4 - until I read the text more carefully!

All the best,

 

Colin

Edited July 19, 2017 by Colin parks

[Compound2632]

As can be seen from the pic,  the centre splashers are slightly narrower and butt up against the inner splashers on the chassis.  (The Comet chassis had these too but did the real thing have inner splashers?) 

 

By inner splashers, do you mean the part of the frame that projects up above footplate level over each axle? If so, I think that's perfectly usual - the frame has to hump up over the hornguide cut-out to have sufficient strength. Here's a sketch I made to convince myself once and for all that the current Hornby LMS 3F 0-6-0T chassis is unsuitable as the starting-point for a Midland 2441 Class 0-6-0T.  You can see the outline of the frame extending above the footplate:

 

 

Looking forward to the promised LNWR engines! (Which is not to say that I doubt that the GWR ones will be good models.)

[Mikkel]

This should be good, I look forward to seeing this one develop (or should that be plural, as you implied elsewhere...).

 

I'll be interested to see how you address the front splasher. I have still to find a prototype photo that shows a cut out in the front splasher as per the Finney kit (not that I'm complaining).

[Darwinian]

I will follow this with interest.

 

I built one of the Mallard kits about 30 years ago. It was my first etched brass loco kit but never ran very well. I replaced the chassis with a compensated perseverance one, small Mashima can motor and branchlines multibox at a later date and reworked the pick-ups a couple of years ago. It runs nicely now although doesn't have much pulling power despite lead crammed in where i could.

 

It probably has as many errors as the Oxford Diecast one but it looks like a Dean to me and I don't really need one for Cwmhir so it lives in the display cabinet most of the time.

 

 

 

I suppose I really should have put something across the ends of the brake pull rods rather than leaving them hanging in mid air like that.

 

And yes I'm afraid the dome really is wonky although the camera has accentuated it .

[Brassey]

By inner splashers, do you mean the part of the frame that projects up above footplate level over each axle? If so, I think that's perfectly usual - the frame has to hump up over the hornguide cut-out to have sufficient strength. Here's a sketch I made to convince myself once and for all that the current Hornby LMS 3F 0-6-0T chassis is unsuitable as the starting-point for a Midland 2441 Class 0-6-0T.  You can see the outline of the frame extending above the footplate:

 

Midland Railway 2441 Class 0-6-0T outline.jpg

 

Looking forward to the promised LNWR engines! (Which is not to say that I doubt that the GWR ones will be good models.)

 

Both the High Level and Comet DG chassis have projections that mimic the shape of the splashers above the frames.  You can see that in the High Level version, in P4, they extend beyond the wheels.

 

 

These make it hard to get hold of the wheels to remove them particularly in P4 with the knife edge flanges.  To remove some wheels they need a twist first.  I actually broke an Alan Gibson wheel trying to get it off the fixed back axle.  On the High Level version, all the wheels have hornblocks and all wheelsets can drop out; less of a problem.  The next Comet chassis I build I will make all wheels unfixed.

 

For this build, if the splashers are too narrow, then these "inner splashers" will be visible.  I don't think this will be a problem with the Finney DG which is also on my build list.

[Brassey]

 

I'll be interested to see how you address the front splasher. I have still to find a prototype photo that shows a cut out in the front splasher as per the Finney kit (not that I'm complaining).

 

 

Mikkel, herewith boiler assembly.  The Mallard smokebox wrapper has a cutout which I have filled with some scrap from the etch as it is not prototypical and they are in the wrong position for my purposes.  Doesn't look too pretty but will be hidden mainly by the sand boxes.

 

 

I will use cut-outs on the splasher tops (as per Finney) mainly because I need them to butt up against the smoke box and the "inner splashers" on the chassis and obscure these.  This is not prototypical as you state, I think these are straight at the front.  However, kits designed primarily for OO have deeper splasher tops and the splashers are positioned accordingly to clear the wheels. So as I am using the kit footplate there will have to be some compromise.  Scratchbuilding the whole thing is beyond my capability.  Will post more progress when these are fitted.

[Brassey]

I will follow this with interest.

 

I built one of the Mallard kits about 30 years ago. It was my first etched brass loco kit but never ran very well. I replaced the chassis with a compensated perseverance one, small Mashima can motor and branchlines multibox at a later date and reworked the pick-ups a couple of years ago. It runs nicely now although doesn't have much pulling power despite lead crammed in where i could.

 

It probably has as many errors as the Oxford Diecast one but it looks like a Dean to me and I don't really need one for Cwmhir so it lives in the display cabinet most of the time.

 

Dean Goods LHS (1).JPG

 

Dean Goods LHS (2).JPG

 

I suppose I really should have put something across the ends of the brake pull rods rather than leaving them hanging in mid air like that.

 

And yes I'm afraid the dome really is wonky although the camera has accentuated it .

 

Darwinian, this is splendid and shows what can be achieved from the kit and especially as your first build.  Shame it does not get much use.

 

I have a couple of the belpaire versions on the go too. One, a really early version (2306) with the narrow footplate and the other a much later one (2524) with fluted rods.  These use left overs from the Finney kit which I incidentally intend to build as another round top:  2439 received an S4 boiler in July 1912 which gives me an excuse to produce it in just outshopped condition with the post 1908 livery. 

[Mikkel]

I will use cut-outs on the splasher tops (as per Finney) mainly because I need them to butt up against the smoke box and the "inner splashers" on the chassis and obscure these. 

 

Thanks for that, I like the splasher cut out solution as it's not something that you really notice. And even if you do, it's hard to find a photo from the right angle to prove that it's wrong 

[Brassey]

 

This cruel closeup illustrates why the boiler wrapper cutout had to be filled as it did not line up with the splasher top.  To be fair to the Mallard kit, I acquired a number of etches many moons ago and don't know whether these were test etches or rejects so they may not be representative of the full kit.  Below is what remains of one of them.

 

 

When you are kit mingling including Finney in this case and cobbling together parts from various other sources including scratch, then there are bound to be times when the fit is less than perfect.  I acquired these etches to test out kit building before I let myself loose on more expensive options such as the LRM locos or Malcolm Mitchell 517; more of which later.

 

 

[coachmann]

Knowing Mallard kits, I doubt one would be able to tell the difference between a test ad production etch. They always required a good amount of builders input to make them into what they were supposed to represent. The sight of Darwinians Dean Goods this Sunday morning has made me want one more than ever now!  

[Brassey]

Here's one I made earlier.  In common with a number of etched kits, on the Mallard kit the splashers bend up from the lower footplate.  They may not be in precisely the correct position but as my P4 wheels clear them I was not going to the effort of moving them.  It's also narrow enough for the narrow footplate version of the Dean Goods.

 

 

Jumping about a bit but readers might find this interesting, this shows how the Martin Finney footplate overlay etch fits on the Mallard lower etch with minimal fettling.  It also shows how little room there is to get a motor in the MF version (the gap is just over 12mm and was designed to fit a Portescap).  This shows how I plan to get at least two locos out of the Finney DG kit, this one being a wide footplate with B4 boiler number 2524.

 

 

So back to the round top S4 , here are the front splashers fitted, complete with cutout.  Beginning to come together.

 

[Brassey]

Boilerbands, washout plugs and handrail knobs added.  Boiler yet to be secured as well as the fittings.  

 

 

Roof, handrail and sandboxes next.  Plus a lot of cleaning up...

[Miss Prism]

A Springsides chimney, if I'm not mistaken.

[Brassey]

A Springsides chimney, if I'm not mistaken.

 

Quite likely, though the source of this is long lost as it was in a plain plastic bag.  It was the only one I could find that I could just plonk on for purpose of the photo without drilling a hole.  The safety valve is PeterK.  I've been collecting this stuff for a while!

[Mikkel]

Very nice Brassey. I have some of the Peter K fittings too, worth keeping an eye out for when they turn up.

 

On an related note, I wonder if anyone has ever produced a separate 4mm brass kit for one of the old Armstrong tenders with outside springs. Nucast did one as part of their Armstrong Goods kit, which I had once, but that was whitemetal.

[drduncan]

I thought Peter K did one for their Ruver class 2-4-0, but it's nolonger listed on their website.

D

[Brassey]

Very nice Brassey. I have some of the Peter K fittings too, worth keeping an eye out for when they turn up.

 

On an related note, I wonder if anyone has ever produced a separate 4mm brass kit for one of the old Armstrong tenders with outside springs. Nucast did one as part of their Armstrong Goods kit, which I had once, but that was whitemetal.

 

 

I thought Peter K did one for their Ruver class 2-4-0, but it's nolonger listed on their website.

D

 

Thanks Mikkel. I did not know that Nucast did one so I will look out for that. And Duncan yes PeterK's was the only etched brass one with the River class that I know of.

 

I have an old Jidenco Armstrong Goods for which I have pinched the 2500 gal Dean tender for this Dean Goods.  The Broad Gauge Rover class has an older type of sandwich frame tender which I am planning convert and use on the Armstrong and should look like this:

 

 

And here's one behind a Dean Goods and I am tempted:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls817.htm

[Mikkel]

Thanks gents, ah yes I forgot that the Peter K River had one as well - I should know as I had one of those too (both that and the 388 are here, built by Dave Perkins and Chris Phillips respectively. They have since been sold on).

 

My reason for asking was exactly the same as what you say Brassey: It's tempting to do a Dean Goods with one of those tenders. I look forward to seeing your Armstrong Goods with one.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Mikkel

[wagonman]

Thanks gents, ah yes I forgot that the Peter K River had one as well - I should know as I had one of those too (both that and the 388 are here, built by Dave Perkins and Chris Phillips respectively. They have since been sold on).

 

My reason for asking was exactly the same as what you say Brassey: It's tempting to do a Dean Goods with one of those tenders. I look forward to seeing your Armstrong Goods with one.

 

 

The River class tender (Peter K) was a sandwich framed type whereas the Armstrong Goods tenders were plate framed. As far as i know nobody does one in 4mm scale – apart from the white metal version. Opportunity for someone here?

 

 

Richard

[Brassey]

I guess I should really start this thread at the very beginning, a very good place to start as the song goes.

 

But where is the beginning.  Well the first train through Berrington & Eye (the station I am building) in the Summer of 1912 was the 23:40 Ludlow to Hereford GWR Goods train passing Berrington & Eye just after midnight.  According to the Great Western working time table this was a “Stone Train”; pretty atypical and it arrived at Ludlow from Hereford less than an hour earlier so not necessarily the first train of the day but the last of the previous.  I have made a start on this train as the stone would have been from Clee Hill (well I’ve bought a wagon kit).

 

 

Thereafter followed a procession of mail trains and express freights all with specialist vehicles that would be again quite atypical and require the building of vehicles of limited use at this stage..

 

So the decision was to start with the first passenger train of the day which was the Leominster to Woofferton GWR circuit train which stopped at 06:47.  It then proceeded to Woofferton from whence it worked the Tenbury and Bewdley line until it returned at 20:59 terminating at Leominster at 21:05.  So that’s the beginning and where this thread is going back to.

 

Ludlow, Leominster, Kidderminster all had a number of 517’s tanks on shed in 1912 for this kind of local passenger work and, as these are amongst my favourite Great Western locos along with the Dean Goods, it was the excuse I needed to build a few.  The train also gives me the opportunity to build a rake of GWR 4 wheelers as these seem to make up the majority of stock used on that branch.

 

For the 517 I had hoarded away a vintage Mallard kit to use along with an M&L (now Gibson) whitemetal version too I’d built from equally as long ago.  However, I think it was Miss P of this Parish who pointed out that the Mallard kit was too wide and only suitable for a much later version.  The M&L version suffers from similar width problems.

 

Undeterred, I set about narrowing the Mallard footplate and the side tanks and shortening the length.  Again I have cheated as I have a Malcolm Mitchell 517 kit to use as a template.  As stated earlier above, I had also acquired some spare Mallard etches from way back and these included some from the 517 along with the DG and a Duke!  So these spare etches will be used as a basis to relaunch the M&L 517.  So that will make 3 x 517’s in total including the Mitchell version I am building.  

 

This first one will be the early enclosed cab version with the “armchair” bunker and longer wheelbase with outside axle boxes.  Here is the current state of play.

 

 

It features a modified High Level 14xx chassis and an old Sagami motor, which just fits, rescued from the now partly dismantled M&L model.  And it all seems to come together. 

 

 

I've tightened up the crankpin nut since.

 

[Brassey]

Here is the 517 boiler assembly complete with round top firebox.  The design of this owes much to Guy Williams' article on building a 517 in MRJ a long while ago.  Ignore the jaunty angle of the motor cutout, this will be hidden by the tank sides.  It is posed on the footplate and chassis for number 835.  There is method in this; it is so that I can assess how to fit a motor and High Level gearbox into that version which is using anything I can salvage from an old M&L 517 including the chassis.  More on that later.

 

 

There now follows an extensive period of testing for clearances etc. on the layout. This is a real chicken and egg situation as, in order to test stock you need a layout and in order to test a layout, you need stock.  Progress on the layout has ground to a halt whilst I build stock.  I have now gone back to bug fixing track.  Pic shows one of the Dean Goods currently under test.

 

[Brassey]

Well the High Level RoadRunner and Mashima 1224 fit.  This is the short wheelbase version 517 with inside bearings to the trailing axle.

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Brassey

[Brassey]

GWR 517 class No. 835 on trials on the layout this weekend:

 

 

This shows the salvaged parts from the M&L kit namely the smokebox, firebox, cab floor, splashers (and buffer beams).  The Wolverhampton style valance is superfluous to requirements in the Malcolm Mitchell kit as are the cab side sheets (cut down from the enclosed cab variant).  The tanks sides and footplate are Mallard.  No. 848 is at a similar stage of progress.  Need to scratch build two armchair style bunkers now for them.