Some RTR rolling stock for All Saints East

[Izzy]

I thought I might post about some of the RTR rolling stock I have altered and converted for the small P4 layout I have made. Originally this thread started as a description of a few modifications to a Hornby J15 which now occupies the start of the thread. Other rolling stock will be added as time permits.

 

- Hornby Railroad TTS class 31 

 

- Heljan class 15 mods 

 

- Hornby J15 sound install  

 

- Bachmann class 03 to P4 + sound install

 

  (sorry, there are no post numbers now to indicate where they start)

 

 

Some Hornby J15 modifications

 

 

When the Hornby J15 first arrived I thought that perhaps I would get one, but the issues of the horizontal boiler handrails and visible boiler/chassis joint rather put me off let alone the issue of whether it could be converted to P4 and the idea was shelved. Recently I popped into a model shop to get a couple of bottles of liquid glue and came out with a J15 as well. Quite how it happened I am still not sure, but the reduced price was a significant factor together with the fact it could be used alongside my early livery W&M railbus without jarring too badly as the actual loco, 65477, was a Cambridge allocated one.

 

There is no doubt that overall it's a very nice model which fully captures the look of the prototype and runs quite nicely too, but having got it I faced several problems. Not only how to sort the handrail & boiler/chassis joint issues since closer inspection confirmed they weren't aspects I found I could live with over the long term, but also convert it to P4, since those are the track standards I have long used in 4mm.

 

Actually handling the loco and then taking it to bits led me to consider that the overall design and construction of this little loco is quite something, with the tender being almost beyond reproach (a tarpaulin rail as an optional fitting would have put it in this category for me), and quite easy to convert to either EM or P4 as well

 

The loco however is a slightly different prospect. Very good and some might say exceptional in some respects, but rather sadly let down by the two very visible faults, those horizontal handrails with very prominent bases on the boiler, and the large joint along the lower boiler where the chassis slots into the body. In addition I also found the later raised roof cab moulding not sitting properly in place with a noticeable air gap visible in the front. That room for P4 wheels was tight under the metal footplate was just a bonus feature...........

 

I thought there might be some interest in how I managed to tackle these aspects, which although done in a piecemeal fashion at the same time I will describe separately since they can be done as individual tasks. Indeed it turned out that sorting the boiler joint issue was something very easily and quickly addressed. As such I'll deal with that first.

 

 

Boiler/chassis joint

 

There are many RTR locos that now have the lower half of the boiler integral with the chassis and this does pose problems with ensuring that when assembled the joint between the two halves isn't too visible. I was quite disappointed with the way the joint on the J15 showed so badly, almost as if the body wasn't sitting down properly on the chassis. Indeed looking closely at it the joint line didn't seem the same size all the way along, and investigating this as I took the loco apart revealed that my first thoughts were correct

 

The body 'hooks' onto the chassis at the rear using a rectangular square on the chassis and a corresponding slot in the body. A screw through the front of the chassis then holds the body firmly in place. So in a sense the body pivots on the rear chassis point and this pivot radius matched the boiler joint, the mismatch being larger at the front than at the rear. I don't know if this shows clearly in this shot.

 

 

Looking at the front of the chassis it seemed there were raised lips cast onto it along with the wire sand pipes (in one continuous piece), that together appeared to be preventing the body sitting down far enough onto the chassis. And so it proved.

 

 

 

 

Removing the sand pipes and making them two separate halves by removing the middle portion along with filing off the cast ridges allowed the body to sit down properly and the joint almost disappears. It's not perfect, but much better than before and probably as good as this kind of design will allow. The front buffers also then sit at the right height. You might notice that the wheels are now to P4 compatible standards. I am afraid the photos were taken piecemeal as work progressed, and when I thought about them, so you'll have to make allowance for this. My apologies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Later raised Cab joint

 

 

The later style of raised roof cab is a plastic moulding that fits down onto the cab front and sides with internal lips on the inner sides to hold it in place along with some glue. It seemed this was too tight a fit and had the effect of squeezing the curvature so the roof became raised away from the cab front at the centre, giving rise to a noticeable gap between the front plate and the additional roof line.

 

 

 

 

I managed to slide a scalpel blade between the roof lips and cab sides where it was glued, thus breaking the glue joint and allowing the roof to be removed. This was done with considerable care and not a little apprehension given the risk posed to damaging the roof moulding. I had visions of it cracking or breaking apart, but with luck it didn't.  The cab detail is nice, as is the glazed spectacles. You can see the filler in the boiler where the handrails are being attended to.

 

 

 

I filed the lips thinner and gently bent the roof moulding to a flatter profile so that it sat down in place correctly without any gap and then glued it back on. You have to be careful to get the front face correctly positioned, I nearly didn't.

 

Well, that's the two easy bits. There is a third, adding a tarpaulin rail for those locos having them, or rather their tenders.

 

 

Tarpaulin Rail

 

Working from photos can of course help here. I did find some that showed 65477 did have such a rail in BR days. I also found that at one stage it ran with a tender cab fitted tender. Not surprising perhaps given that it was Cambridge based and seen on the branches between there and Bury St Edmunds and Colchester. The rail was added using nickel-silver strip and brass wire.

 

 

 

 

 

I suppose a photo might help here. This is the nearly finished loco with altered handrails and to P4. It needs some real coal in the tender, crew, and some gentle weathering, nothing too much.

 

 

 

 

Worth the effort I feel.

 

Izzy

 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Izzy
restore images

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Interesting. My example was parallel, and had to be dropped half a millimetre front and rear to eliminate the visible step. Think we may be looking at a stack of parts and assembly variances which means what needs doing will vary. I have seen one new and unmodified example with the appearance the designer intended, no step visible at the join.

 

I had to make a replacement shorter drawbar to get loco and tender separation to scale, as the supplied drawbar fouled the wiring significantly if the closer coupling distance was used. Well worthwhile, because Hornby's representation of the timber built cab floor extension (so characteristic of Stratford works) is very well done indeed.

[Izzy]

Interesting. My example was parallel, and had to be dropped half a millimetre front and rear to eliminate the visible step. Think we may be looking at a stack of parts and assembly variances which means what needs doing will vary. I have seen one new and unmodified example with the appearance the designer intended, no step visible at the join.

 

I had to make a replacement shorter drawbar to get loco and tender separation to scale, as the supplied drawbar fouled the wiring significantly if the closer coupling distance was used. Well worthwhile, because Hornby's representation of the timber built cab floor extension (so characteristic of Stratford works) is very well done indeed.

 

Yes, the variance in what people find with different examples of RTR is down I think to the fact that in reality they are now factory assembled kits given the large number of parts involved.  I cheated with the drawbar, having found the same problem that the closer setting fouled the wiring plug on the tender, and just cut off the excess.

 

Izzy

[bertiedog]

My two have the big gap and out of parralel issues, plus the buffer height , and as said it is easy to cure if the assembly is done better than the Chinese workers manage. the hand rails have been left for the time being as it involves a re-paint. The cab on my 65475 fitted perfectly to the roof, so again Hornby not watching what the Chinese actually make on a day to day basis.

[Izzy]

Boiler Handrails

 

Perhaps the most noticeable fault with the J15 is the boiler handrails. It seems a crying shame given the quality and accuracy of most of the rest of the loco. Quite why they ended up as they are seems unclear. Several thoughts have been directed to how the boiler is cast as the reason, but a bigger question is how to correct them. It's not just that the stanchions are at the wrong angle but that in order that they fit the boiler large cast bases are present into which they plug.

 

I'm sorry but this is the only shot I have showing them as they were. It's an odd view because at the time I had lifted the body from the footplate to straighten it as it curved a bit, the casting being very slightly distorted. The front of the boiler/cab is glued to it, but screws hold it in place at the rear.

 

 

 

 

Anyway, it is here that it gets interesting in that the stanchions themselves are correct in shape and size as if they were produced to fit the boiler in the correct position as per the prototype. Indeed the actual handrail itself is correct in both position and shape.

 

So it becomes the question that if new holes in the right place are made in the boiler, then the stanchions can be fitted correctly but since the boiler is cast whitemetal this involves removing the original bases, and filling in any holes left behind. This is the tricky bit, making it all look better rather than worse once it has been altered.

 

Recently a way of achieving drilling the new holes using a jig was posted in a blog on RMweb. 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/186/entry-19411-work-on-a-Hornby-j15/

 

It's a nice and neat method and far superior to that I used, which was simply to take a pair of dividers, set them to a distance that was right between the top footplate surface and the underside of the handrail, and scribe light lines where the holes should be, a method I have always used when setting the distance on boilers.

 

Here is the state after drilling the holes, filing off the original bases using needle files, and then filling the resultant holes left over with Humbrol model filler. It needed several goes at this. Rubbing down, re-filling, left to harden, before it was satisfactory. These shots show an intermediate stage.

 

 

 

 

 

Although they were test fitted a few times the handrails weren't fitted properly until the several other jobs also going on were completed. As I have stated a lot was undertaken at the same time, different aspects, and the whole re-assembled together to try and make it easier and also prevent/reduce any paint/body damage that might occur.

 

Here are a couple before touching up the paint. This was done using my Iwata Neo coupled to a new little Expo compressor I have acquired recently. Humbrol 85 satin proved a good match to the original paint.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A couple more shots of the nearly finished loco.

 

 

 

Izzy

Edited August 15, 2022 by Izzy
restore images

[Talltim]

A very useful thread, I keep being tempted to buy one and backdate it, despite the fact that slightly larger than life Y14s never ran on the Guilford Rail System in the 1980s or even the Pennsylvanian RR in the 1910s!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... in reality they are now factory assembled kits ...

I think for anyone who once had to build kits or scratchbuild to get decently satisfying models for the layout, this is going to be the attitude. It's a rare production that cannot be significantly improved in some way with this understanding.

 

I'll pass on the handrail stanchions mod though, good though it clearly is: unless the optician can fix my variable astigmatism.

[Horsetan]

....

RMweb J15 03.jpg

 

....You might notice that the wheels are now to P4 compatible standards.I am afraid the photos were taken piecemeal as work progressed, and when I thought about them, so you'll have to make allowance for this. My apologies.....

Did you retain the Hornby wheels after reducing them on a lathe? Were the tyres removeable?

[Izzy]

Did you retain the Hornby wheels after reducing them on a lathe? Were the tyres removeable?

 

Hi Horsetan,

 

Yes, I re-used the Hornby wheels. It wasn't that difficult to do, much easier than I thought it would be actually, although the wheel standards I mostly use with P4 track at the present might not find favour with everybody if you know what I mean......     Finding space under the footplate was the bigger challenge, but it was all connected.    I am currently writing up the details which I will post next.

 

regards,

 

Izzy

[Horsetan]

....I re-used the Hornby wheels. It wasn't that difficult to do, much easier than I thought it would be actually....

 

I'd be interested to see how you did that. There are wheels for BR Standard Pacifics that may benefit from similar treatment.

[Izzy]

Hornby J15 to P4

 

Converting the J15 to P4 is a really mixed bag. Fairly simple and straightforward for the tender, but less so with the loco. To be thrown into the mix is the choice to be made about the wheels, which where it might be best to start, for this turned out to be more difficult than I originally thought it would be. The eventual path I took will not be available to most I would surmise, but the information might be of use none-the-less.

 

The J15's had 15 spoke 4'10" drivers with the crankpins in line with the spokes and 4'1" 10 spoke tender wheels. The Hornby J15 replicates these mounted on 2mm axles. For anybody wishing to convert the loco to EM I think just re-mounting the wheels onto new, longer axles, might work, although whether there is sufficient clearance under the loco footplate with the wheels set wider I am not sure. Alan Gibson Workshop does produce a conversion set for both EM and P4 using 2mm axles. Indeed there is a PDF they have produced detailing the EM conversion.

 

However there is a slight problem. The AGW loco wheels are 16 spoke while the tender wheels are 3'11". This is because they do not produce the exact size/type of wheel in either case. If this does not matter to you this is fair enough, but although the loco will sit at the right height the tender might not because the 3'11" wheels are 0.9mm diameter smaller than 4'1" ones, the Hornby originals size.

 

With a kit built tender chassis where the ride height can be adjusted to suit then this is not really much of an issue, but the Hornby design is such that it can't, well not that I could see anyway. We are talking here about a 0.45mm buffer height difference. Some would call it negligible, and it might prove that in practice, but I have been there in the past and got caught out with such differences which can stand out quite badly. More to the point I wonder about the loco/tender coupling heights and whether problems with close coupling of them could result if there is a height mis-match.  AGW do 4'1" tender wheels of course, but they are 12 spoke. The choice is yours........

 

Worse still though is that space under the footplate for P4 wheels is virtually non-existent. The measurement between the splashers is almost exactly 22mm, the normal nominal overall width of mounted P4 wheels being 21.7mm.  A further complication is that the splashers don't have enough internal clearance to allow the flanges of such wheels to clear them. And of course the footplate is whitemetal, so just allowing the wheels/flanges to rub up against it would cause shorts. Oh dear. Hmmm..........(this is why I query whether the Hornby wheels pulled out to EM would cause similar issues).

 

A lot of thought then went into considering what I could do. Nice though it is an altered J15 to OO gauge just sitting on a shelf would be of no use to me at all. I began to wonder if perhaps the loco wasn't the bargain I originally thought.

 

Eventually I decided to throw caution to the winds and machine the Hornby wheels in my little lathe to run through P4 trackwork, which would overcome the size/spoke issues, and doing this would allow me to reduce the drivers to the minimum width recommended for P4 wheels, 1.85mm against the normal 2mm width used. A total width reduction of 0.3mm might not sound much but it would double the sideways clearance and when push comes to shove, well.... what is there to lose? If this all went to pot then I could always get a set of AGW wheels and try again.

 

 

The Tender P4 conversion

 

I'll start by describing the tender conversion. Firstly because this is relatively easy and uncomplicated, and second it's what I did first. Trying the machining ideas on the tender wheels, not knowing what standards Hornby wheels were made to.

 

Here is the up-turned tender  - sans body - with the keeper plate removed. The axles run in small plastic clips/bearings with wiper pick-ups bearing on the backs. These are gentle enough not to prevent the wheels turning and held firmly in place by location spigots and the keeper plate The brakes and rigging are attached to the keeper plate and needed re-making to suit the wider gauge wheels.

 

 

 

 

These are the tender wheels removed from their axles. It turns out they are composed of a nickel plated brass tyre and injection moulded centre, moulded into the tyre and thus locked into it I concluded. This was most fortunate as I found I was able to machine the wheels to the standards needed without too much trouble or the wheel centres and rims parting company. You will see there is a large back to the rims upon which the wiper pickups make contact - the loco uses the same design - and a very thin rim at the front.

 

 

 

They were machined on the little lathe I use indoors on my portable workbench (a much modified Sieg 'baby' lathe).  I'm afraid I kept no details of the actual amount of machining carried out in respect of the total amount of material removed, just that the backs of the wheels were skimmed so the flange width was reduced to 0.4mm at the flange root. The rear central bore portion was left alone at full depth to give as much bore depth for good grip on the axles, but was obstructed by the tool holding the wheels in place anyway. Then reverse mounted and the fronts skimmed to give an overall wheel width of 2mm. The front centre bore portion was trimmed to the same depth after with a scalpel, easy being plastic, and the front of the spokes cleaned up with the scalpel and needle files.

 

The flange depth was also reduced in combination with the rear skimming to around the 0.5-0.6mm mark where needed (using needle files). I think, but can't remember clearly, that the original depth was around 1mm but this was of course reduced with the reduction in flange width. All my current P4 rolling stock - save a Bachmann 08 - use their original wheels (RTR locos) or Romford/Gibson re-machined with 0.4mm width flanges and 0.5-0.6mm depths and 2mm wide. In the case of wagons etc - nearly all Parkside - it saves messing with any compensation, they can be built simply as the kit was designed, and the included wheels used.

 

All the machining was carried out gently. No big cuts, just repeated small ones with a round nose tool to prevent any stress to the wheels or moulded centres. The wheels were loosely mounted on an arbour (in a collet chuck) so the plastic bores weren't damaged/altered/enlarged and held tight against a simple plasticard jig to ensure they were flat against the chuck and machined true. Absolute concentricity was not needed as the wheel tread and flange faces were not touched. There was no need and this preserves the nickel finish. This general procedure also applies to the other wheels I have machined and used.

 

 

 

And a shot after painting before final fitting

 

 

 

To alter the brakes and rigging the blocks and hangers were cut off the keeper plate, drilled to accept 0.7mm hard brass wire and then re-assembled with the aid of cryno. The same technique was adopted later for the loco's brakes and hangers. I find having them all attached to a removable keeper plate a nice system. That it all pivots on the hangers is useful for getting them set right. Close enough to the wheel rims but not touching.

 

 

 

Here are the wheels in the chassis. Axle spacers cut from K&S brass tube were fitted to keep side play to a minimum. and prevent the tender crabbing from excess play.

 

 

 

 

This with the keeper plate before painting the brake gear.

 

 

 

And after.

 

 

 

So, that was the easy bit.... now for the loco.......

 

Izzy

Edited August 15, 2022 by Izzy
restore images

[Horsetan]

This is all very very helpful. Can't wait to see how you tackled the drivers.

 

As I wrote, there is a conspicuous lack of a correct driving wheel for the BR Standard 6/7/8 (AGW's is actually a Std.5), so if the current Hornby one can be turned down it would go some way to giving a more correct face.

[Izzy]

I have a horrible feeling that when you see what I did to use the drivers, and that the finish is less than perfect (!) you may find that altering the Hornby wheels is no real advantage.Probably one of those suck and see situations. Anyway, when I can generate the copy I will post it. Might not be today. A lot more words/pictures to sort out. I don't find it either quick or easy, especially as the shots were only taken with a digicam kept on the workbench for reference and double-checking things as I proceed. There was no intention to post them or write about the conversion at the time so they all have to be run through photoshop to make them reasonable even where suitable ones exist.

 

Izzy

[Horsetan]

I have a horrible feeling that when you see what I did to use the drivers, and that the finish is less than perfect (!) you may find that altering the Hornby wheels is no real advantage.Probably one of those suck and see situations. Anyway, when I can generate the copy I will post it. Might not be today. ....

 

Doesn't matter - it's all useful and any extra practical ideas on achieving reasonably-correct P4 wheels (where aftermarket sources may not be able to meet requirements) are always welcome here.

 

There may be lessons here for converting HO models to P87 in similar fashion.

[Izzy]

Doesn't matter - it's all useful and any extra practical ideas on achieving reasonably-correct P4 wheels (where aftermarket sources may not be able to meet requirements) are always welcome here.

 

There may be lessons here for converting HO models to P87 in similar fashion.

 

It's the same basic method by which I and many others 'convert' N gauge wheels for running on 2FS standard trackwork, skim 0.2mm off the backs to take the flange down to the 0.3mm needed, the flange depth of 0.5mm being the same, (this is in regard to the RP25 profile wheels which are now pretty much standard in N with regard to newer stock production). How far the wheels are thinned to the 2FS 1.2mm width depends. 1.5mm is reasonable, but anything is better than the original, which can be between 2.1mm - 2.3mm wide.

 

As it seems there are wide variations in wheel standards and profiles in all scales it is often a case of adapting the actual machining needed to suit the track standards the wheels will run on as well as the actual construction of the wheels themselves. Differences in production methods often mean that no two makers wheels, or even wheels from the same maker, can be assumed to be similar let alone the same, as regards not only the rim material but the centres material too. An important factor is the root radius of wheel tread against the head profile radius of the code of rail used. Many times I have encountered wheels from one maker to different overall tread profiles, even recently on the same loco - a new version Graham Farish 4F. So how they are mounted in the lathe for machining is crucial to the process. The hardest wheels to machine and continue to get to run true are actually those using a metal wheel on a metal axle with a small insulating bush. These bushes can distort whether they are removed or left in place making true running wheels difficult to maintain.

 

It's all good fun though.........

 

Izzy

[Izzy]

The Loco conversion to P4

 

As I said previously this is where it gets interesting - depending on your viewpoint.  I started off by removing the keeper plate and dropping the wheels out, the intention being to take off the coupling rods, remove the wheels from the axles, and start machining the wheels in a similar manner to that of the tender wheels.

 

However, this is the view that meet me when the wheels dropped out. The driven axle/gear wheel absolutely covered in grease. Now a little grease smeared on to aid movement is no bad thing, but this level? Oh dear. More than likely to harden off after a time and seize up the drive.

 

 

 

 

Concerned about this I decided to look a bit further, took the worm assembly off, and found this.

 

 

 

Yet more grease. This prompted me to undertake a partial strip down of the chassis, since I could not leave this as it was. Asking for trouble in the future. There is a gearbox cover moulding on the right hand side which just plugs into place. Removing it revealed this.......ugh!

 

 

 

 

This helped explain why the loco appeared at odd times at slow speed to become a little 'sticky/jittery' even on DCC, it was! After removing the gears and giving it all a good clean this is how it looked upon being re-assembled

 

 

A little light oiling and it was good to go. When the loco was tested after re-wheeling the difference in slow speed control was noticeably better.

 

This is the worm housing, the shaft running in PB bearings.

 

 

 

 

And all tucked away with the worm and gearbox covers.

 

 

 

 

Just to complete the tour, here is the other side showing the wiring runs from the pickups and motor. These of course go via the plug connection to the tender.

 

 

 

Strangely the wiring cover is held in place with two screws by comparison with the gearbox side.

 

 

 

So, after that little detour it's back to the main menu - the wheels.

 

...................

 

 

These are the wheels removed from the axles. I tapped them off with a little drift through the centre of the wheel which is thin plastic which gets destroyed when you do this, as the axles don't come right to the outer face of the wheel hub. Apparently this is to allow the false plastic/cosmetic centre finish to the axle ends. Don't try and twist the wheels off the axles, they are splined to ensure the wheels don't rotate on them.  So the only way to get the wheels off means the wheel centres get destroyed............great. Sometimes you just couldn't make it up.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

The wheels were machined in exactly the same way as for the tender ones, except I ran the cutting tool up to the wheel hub on the front which took some of the front edges of the spokes off and thus left a flat square edge. This was necessary to get the overall wheel thickness down to the 1.85mm figure. I did not reduce the thickness of the hub itself. But I did remove the raised portion of crankpin housing so the hub was flat. This did mean the coupling rods would be closer to the wheel, but was needed to provide just enough clearance for them under the footplate. This was all part of the nip & tuck work required to get it all to come together and work.

 

A lot of work then commenced with profiling the spokes back to a reasonable state at the front and removing the moulded flange that existed at the back half of the wheel mouldings, at the rear portion of the spokes.

 

Perhaps this crop will show what I mean. I have coloured the thicker flange bit.

 

 

 

I have noticed this appears to be a common feature on many Hornby steam loco wheels. Perhaps it's to provide extra strength to the moulding but is visible in many cases. Removal was carried out using a small no 11 scalpel blade in a 3 handle. My main scalpel combination. At the rear it was cut back to the outer edge of the wheel rim, and attacked from the front with both scalpel and needle files.

 

This is a shot taken part way through to judge the progress. The plastic is difficult to clean up. Any cuts or filing seems to produce a rough, feathered finish which proved very difficult to get smooth. My first thoughts were that it might be a GRP (glass reinforced plastic) mix, but later considered that perhaps it was more nylon based, which does produce this kind of rough surface if filed.

 

 

 

 

I had mounted the wheels on axles to better judge the situation, which despite the amount of work wasn't that good as you can see, and look at how the clearance was in the chassis under the footplate. A lot more work ensued.

 

Eventually I got to a position where I felt it was as far as I was going to be able to get. These are the wheels mounted and painted prior to fitting. Even here more bits can be seen that needed further cleaning up - which was done, but seemed never ending.

 

 

 

 

However, this shot does remind me that I have forgotten one aspect. The wheels were mounted on new axles. Spare pin-point Romford ones with the ends filed flat to the length needed. These were plain shafted i.e. no splines. I did not find the wheels gripped any less, in fact they were quite tight, (they were a loose fit on Gibson plain end tender axles which I tried first), but the gear wheel wasn't. To ensure it stayed put I thus drilled through its centre boss and the axle and inserted a lock pin - some hard brass wire

 

 

 

 

As I had re-used the Hornby wheels it meant I could also use the coupling rods and crankpins. The rods are like many fitted to RTR locos these days, jointed ones which are held together and pivoted on a rivet. The problem is that in this case, as with so many, the pivot/rivet joint is loose and sloppy and so the rods don't keep a constant crankpin distance through a wheel revolution. This can lead to poor running at times, and especially when, as in this case, the drive is off an outer axle rather than a central one. Prototype rods are generally jointed in relation to the driven axle, working outwards in both directions ( in the case of 8/10 coupled ones) from the driven axle. When a model joints the rods as per the prototype, but then drives off a different axle.............

 

As I didn't need or want the loco to traverse anything much under A5 turnout radius - very roughly 36" - I did what I have tended to adopt in recent times in these situations. I made the rods solid, by tightening up the rivet joint  and when the rods were found to be correct in respect of crankpin distance and straightness, soldered them up at the joint. There is still enough slop of the rods on the crankpins to allow a modicum of up/down axle movement - there is some slop in the chassis as well in this aspect, enough to produce good electrical collection and track holding, which the deeper than normal for P4 flanges aid.

 

 

 

Alongside altering the wheels I made some modifications to the underside of the loco footplate, or rather the splashers, to provide the necessary clearance for the wheels. this was carried out using mainly burrs in a little mini drill, but also scalpels where needed. Care was required to ensure the burrs didn't slip and attack the other surfaces of the footplate and cause paint damage or worse. I had one or two close calls.

 

Generally the insides of the splashers were thin at the outer edges, and then there was a step ridge to greater thickness. It was this step that was found to be the main culprit to fouling the wheel flanges. This was all allied of course to the basic thickness of the footplate.

 

This is of the front splasher which should show what I mean.

 

 

 

The finished result. Quite a few hours work here. Before painting of course, a nice thick coat aiding electrical insulation against any unwanted shorts.

 

 

 

And that's about it. Oh, just one more thing. A couple of shots of the actual total clearance. The whole point of the exercise!

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure if it is clear to see, but that is because it is, as calculated at the beginning, only around about the 0.6mm - 0.7mm mark in total, so 0.3/0.4mm per side when the wheels are central. But this is enough that the loco can quite easily traverse an A5 crossover in either direction i.e. with the loco or tender leading. This is with the distance between the loco & tender set at the close drawbar setting Hornby provide. Just as an aside I will add that it runs under DCC, a Zimo MX600 being installed in the tender (my standard decoder of choice for my 4mm/P4 locos).

 

 

 

 

Now it's all done and dusted I am quite satisfied with the result, both in terms of looks and performance, and is all I could want. I make this statement with the experience of building quite a number of J15's from etched kits for others in the past, in both 4mm/P4 and 7mm/FS scales. While not perfect, and an etched kit might produce a bit more finesse in some areas, generally this is probably as good as any of them, indeed I doubt I could have bettered it overall with one made from a kit these days, so I am happy. Equally I hope this thread will help others.

 

regards,

Izzy

Edited August 15, 2022 by Izzy
restore images

[Dave John]

Many thanks for that comprehensive thread Izzy. 

 

I keep hoping that one day Hornby will do one of the varieties of a CR Jumbo. If they did then the the similarity of size to a J15 would probably mean that the construction would be along the same lines, so your work here would give me a head start in converting one to EM. 

 

Not that I'm holding my breath...... 

[Horsetan]

.....Equally I hope this thread will help others.

 

 

It has. It's excellent.

 

Thanks for showing us.   

[Izzy]

New Crankpins.

 

Just a small update with regard to the J15 crankpins.

 

The Hornby ones are 10ba hex head bolts with part of the head reduced to 2.3mm dia where they enter the coupling rod. They do the job, and are easy to fit/remove, but the hex heads look a bit big.

 

I did consider replacing the coupling rods once the loco was up and running and proven to be okay, but comparison with some spare Gibson rod etches I had to hand indicated that while they might  look slightly better there wouldn't be much in it, the Hornby ones not being too over scale. It would also mean bushing the wheels (fitted with 10ba brass inserts) to fit the finer Gibson crankpins.

 

So instead I made up some new crankpins with rounded heads. Trying to keep the machining simple I turned the heads in steel, tapped 10ba and then soldered to lengths of brass 10ba studding then cut to length afterwards.

 

 

 

 

It's just a small change but I think another slight improvement which adds to the general look.

 

 

 

 

Izzy

Edited August 15, 2022 by Izzy
restore images

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 Wow, Izzy's J15 got half a shift's worth of grease by the look of it. My example has the ideal barely detectable smears properly distributed to all bearings, just like I would have applied myself. This is a significant variable in assembly, and I suspect a factor in many complaints relating to RTR models 'as received' not running well in some respect.

 

... keep hoping that one day Hornby will do one of the varieties of a CR Jumbo... 

 Quietly optimistic of such a development. We now have a round half-dozen of small Edwardian or earlier origin, 3F or less power rating 0-6-0 designs as RTR models; and from three manufacturers. These have all arrived over the last five years or thereabouts, so hopefully this type is 'trending'. Just so many attractive subject possibilities - especially from long neglected railway companies operating in Northern parts - and typically classes that put in 60, 70 and more years of service, thus lasting into the final decade of steam operation in the UK. And I feel they make very attractive models, even before the sort of 'polishing' this thread illustrates.

[Izzy]

Hornby Railroad TTS class 31 modifications

 

 

Recently I bought one of these locos to see what sound was like on a small home layout of the shunting plank type. With an original style body using headcode discs finished in the plain green livery and sold at a bargain price for a sound fitted loco it seemed too good to resist.

 

I thought a few posts on how I changed it a bit here and there might be of help and use to anyone else wanting to do similar things, the basic idea being as usual to do this at minimal cost.

 

The model is fairly accurate being based around the exLima mouldings - there are some issues - but cannot represent the original 20 locos as built because the engine room doors have the grills fitted to later batches which were retro-fitted when they were re-engined. So for an early as-built version a number from the later batch ones also without headcode boxes needs to be chosen of which D5551 is one.

 

Unfortunately the TTS sound doesn't match up to the body for those that will know the difference (which I wouldn't), being of the later EE engines rather than the original Mirrlees and needing the exhaust ports at 90 degrees to those on the model. Since the loco livery represents a Mirrlees engined class 30 I have chosen to leave them alone.

 

I started by stripping the loco down and converting it to P4 as until this proved possible any other work wouldn't be undertaken. One aspect not mentioned so far is that compared to earlier models of class 31's this is quite accurate in respect of the bogie wheel arrangement, with the middle carry wheels being smaller than the outer ones, 12.5mm & 14.5mm respectively. Some past models have either had all the wheels the same size, or with some motor bogies no real carry wheels at all, just representations cast onto the bogie side frames.

 

Although this is an exLima loco in general respects to both the body and chassis mouldings, the newer design of Hornby Railroad motor bogie is now used instead of the older Lima pancake type, with the metal weights fitted into the fuel tank area of the plastic chassis to provide some weight to the model and aid traction. Two of the power bogie driving wheels - one on each axle - are also fitted with traction tyres. Electrical pickup is to all wheels on both bogies, powered and non-powered, even those with traction tyres.

 

 

 

Both bogies plug into the chassis and pivot on these plugs. They cannot be removed completely without un-soldering the wires to the pickups and motor. However, the wheels can be taken out by removing the keeper plate on the non-driven bogie, and the combined side-frames/keeper plate on the motor one. Both clip into place but neither remove particularly easily, the motor one having clips on the insides which are difficult to access, and the non-driven one moulded wedges on the inside ends which make it a very tight fit. I nearly gave up in despair at one stage trying to remove it and trimmed these wedges back with a scalpel for easier fitting and removal in future times.

 

 

 

 

My first thoughts were to simply replace the wheels with standard P4 coach and wagon types of 3'7" and 3'1" size. However, I then discovered that the wheels use 2.5mm diameter axles rather than the normal 2mm, with one wheel being all-metal, the other having a centre plastic insulating bush, so it was a case of machining the wheels to suit P4 track as I normally do, using the little lathe I have, and bearing in mind the use of traction tyres.

 

 

 

It did proved possible, but with one slight problem. The Hornby wheels have narrow but very deep flanges - about 1.1mm - and I reduced this to the standard 0.5mm depth I use. However, I had not allowed for the traction tyres, which tend to sit above the tread level in order to grip the rail. In practice this meant that at times the loco derailed, the wheels being lifted above the flange depth. Oh dear.

 

 

 

 

The traction tyres were thus ditched and rings of flat brass made which sat into the tyre grove. These were subsequently soldered into the wheel, the treads cleaned up, and all is now okay. Replacement wheels without traction tyres for the non-driven bogie are available as spares and getting a set and replacing the traction tyre wheels, these being the same as the powered ones save for the lack of gears, may be an option for anyone wanting to rid themselves of the traction tyre wheels whatever gauge they use.

 

You will see from the two shots of the wheels back in the non-powered bogie that there is nothing fancy about the construction, the axles just running in the plastic mouldings, no bearings etc. The PB current collectors bend easily to press on the wheel backs and pick up power and it all works fine.

 

 

This applies to the powered bogie as well. The motor is very powerful but with the rather low 16-1 gearing slow speed performance isn't perhaps all it could be, especially for a shunting plank, but you can't always have everything can you ?

 

 

 

 

 

Having got it running on the layout the fun could begin......

 

Izzy

Edited August 15, 2022 by Izzy
restore images

[Izzy]

Hornby Railroad TTS class 31

 

Chassis modifications

 

Having got the loco running on the layout and enjoying playing with the sound I sorted out what needed doing with it to bring it up to the general detail level of my other rolling stock, for it has to be accepted that railroad stuff is basic in nature. As such the loco is just one moulding fitted with three separate glazing units clipped/glued into place, with some plastic cab handrails and buffers.  Nothing else, so there is quite a bit that needs/can be done according to taste.

 

 

 

 

 

Looking at the list I made, headcode discs, bufferbeam cowling & hoses, separate metal handrails, flush glazing of the windows etc it became clear that in order to fit cab interiors, another item on the list, a re-jigging of the chassis to move the decoder, 8-pin socket and speaker would be needed. I therefore tackled first what chassis changes were required for moving things around along with a couple of other alterations. These were adding the bufferbeam cowlings and narrowing the fuel tanks a bit, which are too wide.

 

There are it appears three basic discrepancies with the loco compared to the drawing I have. The body is 3mm short, the bogie wheelbases are 54mm instead of 56mm - probably done so Lima could use the same motor unit in both the class 37 and 31 and keep production costs down - and the fuel tanks are too wide, 32mm instead of 30. I believe these aspects were corrected on what I have seen referred to as the Hornby 'full fat' 31 produced in recent years.

 

While nothing can be done about the first two and luckily they don't stand out as being wrong, narrowing the fuel tanks so they sit under the body a bit more can because as luck would have it the smaller metal weights in the lower part of the fuel tanks don't reach right to the inside edges. It's just 1mm a side, but I have found that often bits like this can make a big difference looks wise as part of an overall detail improvement, and this was one aspect that didn't look quite right when I was making comparison of the model with prototype photos. I did have to strip down the chassis to do this, remove everything by un-screwing and un-soldering where necessary, but this would be needed to re-jig it anyway and helped with other work to the bogies as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is how it looks now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Both the 8-pin socket and speaker screw into place. I cut off the posts for the socket screws and moved them as close to the central metal weights as I could, then made new posts out of stacked squares of plasticard for the speaker. This is the net result.

 

 

 

 

And with the decoder re-fitted, tucked down in front of the weights. I cut the sleeve protection about and remade it as a bag with electrical tape so all the wires come out one way.

 

 

 

The white plastic square above the pivot plug is a new addition to stop the bogie moving back and forth, the plug being a loose fit in its hole.

 

With the bogies away from the chassis I made a few alterations to them. The cut-outs were filed in the middle tops, the brake rods opened out at the sandboxes, and wire fitted for the sandpipes. I also made up and added the bogie fitted guard irons from scrap nickel-silver etch bent and soldered to shape. These I pinned as well as gluing them to the bogies to ensure they didn't come adrift. The pockets for the NEM couplings had of course been removed at this stage, not being needed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

One result of removing the NEM coupling moulding from the bogies was that the un-powered one could rotate completely around. I didn't realise this at first until I put the chassis on the track to check something and kept getting shorts! It took a while to discover the problem and then work out a simple solution to stop it happening.

 

This uses a 10ba bolt in the bogie which sits in a slot made in the floor of the chassis, allowing a degree of rotation but preventing the bogie turning right around.

 

 

 

 

 

Izzy

Edited August 15, 2022 by Izzy
restore images

[John Tomlinson]

Thanks for the gen about your work on the 31, the J15 item is also very interesting.

 

John.

[Izzy]

Hornby Railroad class 31

 

The bufferbeams

 

Perhaps one of the biggest letdowns with this particular model is that the cowlings surrounding the bufferbeams until their later lives are not part of the moulding. 

 

How to make and fit some took me a while to work out. At first I thought of making the sides and centre as separate sections joined together but test pieces just wouldn't work together because of the curves and angles involved. Eventually I managed to generate a composite shape in Photoshop from the loco drawing and cut this out of 10thou plasticard four times over. Each shape was bent in the corners and then they were sandwiched as pairs to give a basically correct shape in a decent thickness of material. As the centre portion dips in the middle leaving a gap to the bottom of the beams another 10thou layer was glued behind.

 

 

 

 

 

Although far from perfect and not totally correct they look reasonably okay, especially with a coat of paint to hide the worst of the imperfections.

 

Regarding paint and touching up the added bits I have to say I was very lucky here in that I found an old tin of Humbrol enamel railway colour - HR104 - good as the day I first bought it, (far longer ago than I could begin to remember), and probably as close a match for the base colour as I could get.

 

I did consider changing the buffers, Hornby sprung ones from the full fat 31 are available as spares, and I may well still do so at some stage in the future, but left it at thinning the face of the plastic buffers with needle files, not being quite sure how I would replace them easily and without causing damage, and just adding a scrap of plastic on the tops of the housing. All the hose's were made out of various thickness of hard brass wire, 0.33/0.45/0.7 etc, some wound with fine florists wire others just with blobs of solder on the ends (very crude), and Smiths screw couplings complete the line-up. These aren't perhaps quite as fine and scale looking as others, but suit my now less than perfect eyesight as does the rest of the detail.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Izzy

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Izzy
restore images

[Izzy]

Hornby Railroad class 31

 

Body Details

 

As I mentioned in an earlier post the body is a simple one piece moulding just fitted with glazing and plastic handrails. The quality of the detail is quite high with a good degree of finesse in many areas, but moulded or plastic handrails always look well, moulded and plastic, so these were prime candidates for removal and replacement with wire ones. I also felt the glazing fell down a bit with the cab windows - the inset bits looking like they have shrunk in the openings - so decided to make replacements.

 

 

 

These were cut and filed up from flat off-cuts of acrylic sheet saved from the clear packaging which many products are bought in these days. I now have a range of thicknesses and colours to choose from - some are clear while others have a slight bluish tint. These were glued into place by running a very small amount of Plastic weld glue around the edges applied with a fine brush.

 

 

 

None of this was particularly quick to do, for example there are 9 windows for each cab, all different sizes, as well as 3 down each side, 24 in total, so all of this was slow and time-consuming work. They are far from perfect as I am sure are clear from the photos but I feel worth the effort in the long run. But first, the roof fan.

 

It is possible to get replacement etches for the fan and from what I have seen they look nice and detailed, but as this detail doesn't really seem to show much past close inspection I decided to stick with what was there after trying a bit of painting to bring out the fan detail present in the moulding.

 

Firstly I gave it all a coat of bufferbeam red, and then when fully dry, a dry brush coat of matt black. This seemed to give enough of a 3D effect to suit my needs. Perhaps I am easily satisfied, but if fell in with my low cost needs.

 

 

 

I then cut off all the roof handrail mouldings, drilled a few 0.3mm holes, and fitted 0.33mm brass wire replacements bent up with some small snipe nose pliers. Say it quickly and it doesn't seem so bad...... there's 27 of them..........a bit of MEK-PAK fixed them in place. It's surprising how noticeable they are at many angles, so worth the time taken in the end.

 

 

 

Removing the plastic cab handrails  - I cut them off with a scalpel - revealed that they were glued into biggish holes in the body, around 0.7mm. So my basic idea to just bend up some fine N/S wire to shape and poke them in the holes vacated by the plastic ones became a non-starter, handrails that thick being no better than the plastic ones in terms of looks.

 

 

 

So I plugged the holes with short lengths of Albion Alloy's 0.8mmOD/0.4mmID brass tubing and then soldered some fine N/S wire into them  after bending to the required shapes. Because I had to make the tube lengths a bit longer than the thickness of the sides - the handrail locations are recessed into the body sides and the moulding only 0.5mm thick here, I had to file clearance slots in the chassis so the body would slide down into place over it, the tubes being about 1.0mm long, the shortest length that I found would glue into the holes and stay put and thus stick out a bit on the inside.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As the boiler hatch access recessed steps/rungs were shallow and moulded I cut them out, put a 10thou strip at the rear, and fitted hard brass wire rungs. These were pushed into the opening and secured with a wash of MEK. The top rung on the roof I managed to open out with a scalpel by removing the plastic behind.  All looks a bit crude in this shot, but better once painted.

 

 

 

Apart from the bufferbeam cowlings it is perhaps the lack of much/any front details that stands out with this loco, given that it represents one of those fitted with headcode discs. Once again what is present is moulded on, so it all came off, to be replaced with wire handrails, lamp irons, and metal headcode discs, all homebrew efforts. I also made up some wipers, again from wire, a mix of 0.33mm for the blades and 0.45mm for the arms. Not very refined, etched ones would be far better, but cheap!

 

 

 

 

The lamp irons used some small N/S strip bent to shape with a cross arm from the 045mm wire soldered in, the idea being that these could be fitted/glued into drilled holes, past experiences showing that lamp irons just surface glued on tend to come off.

 

 

 

The headcode discs are from thin shim brass sheet. Again etched ones are produced and most probably markedly superior, but where's the fun in that...........and they are slightly better I think than the moulded plastic ones that come with most RTR locos these days.

 

 

 

 

I was going to say that was pretty much the job finished, but the shots of the cabs have reminded me of a couple of other bits. Firstly the bars along the engine room windows. These are N/S wire soldered up and glued in place with more MEK.

 

 

 

And this shot also highlights another quite important addition, the cab interiors. These were made up out of plasticard to fit between the chassis insides but fixed with D/S tape to the body. This allows for removal if needed. I found I had to reduce the height of the front of the chassis to allow them to sit down into it. Plastic strips were fixed to the body to locate the cabs. There is a gap between the cab interiors and the body sides into which the chassis sides slide. I did not wish to trim the chassis side down too much in case this weakened the chassis moulding  and caused the bufferbeams etc to sag.  A couple of Bachmann engine crew were used after some orthopaedic surgery to get them to fit the space.

 

 

 

 

 

I do think that is all now.  This is another shot of the loco on All Saints East. Like most of the other stock I have built for it, a bit of weathering needs doing sometime. Nothing too much, just some gentle in-service wear and tear.

 

 

 

Anyway, I hope this helps give others ideas about what can be done with this loco, probably better than I have managed, although I am quite pleased with the end result.

 

Just thought I would add another shot, this one showing the overhead warning flashes. Wasn't really sure if they were fitted during the period of the livery, before yellow warning panels started to appear, but found a couple that showed they were.

 

 

Izzy

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Izzy
restore images