Should GUV, Parcels/Mail or Newspaper coach stock have lights?

[40034_Nick]

Hi All,

 

Should GUV, Parcels/Mail or Newspaper coach stock have lights or be partially lit ?

I assume no but am not sure and can't remember from back in the day.

I am sure (and seem to remember) mail trains would be a yes as staff were sorting but the other i am unsure.. 

 

Thanks

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The full brake (BG) types I rode home in from KX in the wee small hours sitting on the newspapers were lit, but not that brightly! Don't forget the fug of baccy smoke, all railway staff seemingly smoked. The 'old railway', where service to the passenger with a ticket but no passenger train available for a while yet could still be left to the train guard's discretion...

[Fat Controller]

Newspaper vans would have been lit, as would postal stock. Unlikely that GUVs would be lit whilst moving, unless someone had left the lights on, as there wouldn't have been anyone on board. They would probably have the lights on during loading and unloading, so that station staff and posties could read the labels on bags and parcels.

[40034_Nick]

Cheers guys.. :-)

[Rivercider]

I would agree with the above, I do remember that Bristol Temple Meads in the small hours could be a hive of industry at times.

My recollection of lighting at night from mk1 stock, and old style loco headcodes, was that they glowed rather than shone brightly.

 

 

Here is a night shot at Newcastle in 1984 with lights showing from some GUVs.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/30843245@N00/32748624356/in/photolist-cACVff-bQtTFn-rggGKZ-e9sgdd-63jY6L-dXhESw-RTTg5q-9BD5Qt-p76Bdx-bfK3mK-efWXsK-qNhCyT-7E1cFV-dTtJSx-r6JU2u-5oJTJz-oS7Uza-cDFhuw-THqXxw-bBR29d-aDVu5a-r9brbx-e33QA9-r6KMDQ-dNKdgP-a9Mjfm-dQn1aP-cZ9wZA-f23jY4-dN6H8g-sou546-apY3WA-633TMw-rr2hJL-jR1eJa-7yRVNd-khSFVM-9TrCP2-df9QhJ-d7xWto-ptrZJZ-dhB1X2-bDi7xg-9itkYp-qu4dXZ-ejNsQA-5ZZSwv-dsyJFs-rm2jmy-pvi78p 

 

Lights lit in BGs at York in 1985

https://www.flickr.com/photos/yorkshires-finest/4064181315/in/photolist-7c8ZvD-dTjR9p-6yzJeg-bsH6LR-6yF4DA-fJrGdZ-dfokVp-dTPCsf-ra6sdy-RBTgbn-DbqAUt-paq6me-Q97kab-BZ7GBN-HaECSW-Kc362w-Bi7wLg-UYhFdZ-WadaCj-9k6eXQ-SNXkEk-e4zDXy-W4NiQ8-SCVx4x-i5zyxo-QCQjZm-7K2xJX-SPhwaZ-U4oKej-dP224s-UAPdXu-eiufst-5YLpi8-jihguK-Wad84G-amMhsc-63XFR9-hF6VXa-atgmFA-9mHayx-pZHeuP-hsdJ9M-qNnmPH-qCkimK-TPYpqj-sJMkc5-azTLcr-kZSzJ3-RQ5NwJ-emqck3

 

cheers

[40034_Nick]

I would agree with the above, I do remember that Bristol Temple Meads in the small hours could be a hive of industry at times.

My recollection of lighting at night from mk1 stock, and old style loco headcodes, was that they glowed rather than shone brightly.

 

 

Here is a night shot at Newcastle in 1984 with lights showing from some GUVs.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/30843245@N00/32748624356/in/photolist-cACVff-bQtTFn-rggGKZ-e9sgdd-63jY6L-dXhESw-RTTg5q-9BD5Qt-p76Bdx-bfK3mK-efWXsK-qNhCyT-7E1cFV-dTtJSx-r6JU2u-5oJTJz-oS7Uza-cDFhuw-THqXxw-bBR29d-aDVu5a-r9brbx-e33QA9-r6KMDQ-dNKdgP-a9Mjfm-dQn1aP-cZ9wZA-f23jY4-dN6H8g-sou546-apY3WA-633TMw-rr2hJL-jR1eJa-7yRVNd-khSFVM-9TrCP2-df9QhJ-d7xWto-ptrZJZ-dhB1X2-bDi7xg-9itkYp-qu4dXZ-ejNsQA-5ZZSwv-dsyJFs-rm2jmy-pvi78p 

 

Lights lit in BGs at York in 1985

https://www.flickr.com/photos/yorkshires-finest/4064181315/in/photolist-7c8ZvD-dTjR9p-6yzJeg-bsH6LR-6yF4DA-fJrGdZ-dfokVp-dTPCsf-ra6sdy-RBTgbn-DbqAUt-paq6me-Q97kab-BZ7GBN-HaECSW-Kc362w-Bi7wLg-UYhFdZ-WadaCj-9k6eXQ-SNXkEk-e4zDXy-W4NiQ8-SCVx4x-i5zyxo-QCQjZm-7K2xJX-SPhwaZ-U4oKej-dP224s-UAPdXu-eiufst-5YLpi8-jihguK-Wad84G-amMhsc-63XFR9-hF6VXa-atgmFA-9mHayx-pZHeuP-hsdJ9M-qNnmPH-qCkimK-TPYpqj-sJMkc5-azTLcr-kZSzJ3-RQ5NwJ-emqck3

 

cheers

 

Cool Thanks. I was just about to say Warm white light but then viewed the second photo. Seems very bright.. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by 40034_Nick

[Joseph_Pestell]

Cool Thanks. I was just about to say Warm white light but then viewed the second photo. Seems very bright.. 

Difficulties of night photography, especially if  using slow slide film.

 

To the naked eye, they would have seemed much dimmer.

[The Johnster]

Ok, Guard's compartments, TPO vehicles, and Newspaper Sorting Vans would have been well lit, in as far as that term can be applied to stock lit with low wattage bulbs by a 12volt (IIRC) battery charged by a dynamo belt driven from an axle (these are represented on more or less all rtr mk1 stock going back to the days of Hornby Dublo and Triang Railways).  The lighting system was controlled by switches that could be operated by the guard in his compartment or by station/postal staff on the end bulkheads of the vans, but for NPCCS apart from the above, which were rarely cleaned and indifferently maintained, dirt, dirty windows, ineffective batteries, faulty switches, and failed bulbs presented a much less predictable and uniform appearance.  To an observer on a platform where loading or unloading was being carried out, some vehicles would be reasonably well lit, some to a greater or lesser extent dimly lit with dark areas where bulbs had popped/been nicked to light another van, and some would have been in darkness.  To an observer watching a train pass out in the country at night, the guard's compartment would be fairly bright, and the rest of the train in darkness except for a few vehicles where the lights could not be turned off due to faulty switches, which would glow a feeble brown colour through filthy windows.  

 

Even when passenger carrying mk1s had mostly been refurbished with strip lighting and were suppled by loco hotel current, which made them much brighter, parcels stock retained the old system until it's final demise. Railway or postal staff working at stations were supposed to switch the lights on when they entered the vehicle, which they couldn't always because of the unreliable (though dirt and lack of maintenance) switches, and switch them off when they'd finished, which they couldn't always for the same reason.  Bulbs would pop, or be smashed by rough handling of parcels or mail bags, and not be replaced, or nicked to illuminate part of another van.  Overnight trains, especially in summer, would arrive at their final destinations with vans with the lights on, but with outside daylight making it impossible to see that they were on, so they would be stabled 'overday' with the battery being drained; this meant that on the following and subsequent nights'  runs such lighting as was available was what could be picked up directly through the dynamo, so the van was lit while lt was in motion and nobody was working in it and unlit when it was stopped at a station and work was being carried out in it.  This is one of the reasons that it was important to load trains with parcels or mails according to the Loading Plan for that station, which the foreman had copies of to refer to, so that staff unloading it at it's prescribed location could just unload 'that pile over there' without having to try to read the labels in the dark.

 

The big difference with TPO, or Newpaper Sorting stock was that lighting faults affected the work on the train, in both cases being carried out against the clock and with a requirement for accuracy, so it was reported and dealt with at the carriage depot at the end of the journey.  Such stock was stored inside or close to the charging and maintenance facilities as were passenger trains; parcels rakes would be stabled out the back out of the way somewhere, their faults unreported, sometimes unrealised, and left to fester.  These were, of course, the very locations from which batteries were most likely to go walkabout...

 

For modelling purposes, an overnight parcel train should have a comparatively well lit guard's compartment (pre 1969), by which I mean not bright but brighter than anything else on the train, a majority of unlit vehicles, and one or two dimly lit ones; all lights to be 'warm'.  if you get the weathering right on the dirty windows, you will achieve the correct shade of dirty brown feeble backlit glow.  Almost every model railway I have ever seen that incorporates lighting of any sort has it much, much too bright, and modern technology tends to encourage people to have it much, much too cool as well.  You are looking for a feeble glow in steam days and not much more than that for modern image; if you can see it with the room lights on, it's too bright!

Edited July 20, 2017 by The Johnster

[Il Grifone]

IIRC the coach bulbs were 24V with their own type of socket to discourage theft. The glow was definitely on the yellow side from what I remember (under run to prolong life?).

If anyone saw the lamp bulb that allegedly has been glowing for over 100 years on the news the other day, you could see that it was decidedly on the dim side, as you would expect. It just shows what ideal conditions will do - low load and not switched on and off.

 

I won't comment on the conspiracy theory that lamp bulbs were deliberately designed for a life of 1000 hours....

[The Johnster]

24V then.  Discouraging theft did not take into account 70s football oogians, who took them out of their sockets just to have something to throw at each other...

[45125]

IIRC the coach bulbs were 24V with their own type of socket to discourage theft. The glow was definitely on the yellow side from what I remember (under run to prolong life?).

If anyone saw the lamp bulb that allegedly has been glowing for over 100 years on the news the other day, you could see that it was decidedly on the dim side, as you would expect. It just shows what ideal conditions will do - low load and not switched on and off.

 

I won't comment on the conspiracy theory that lamp bulbs were deliberately designed for a life of 1000 hours....

 

The lamps were standard bayonet fittings................. And the voltage for most lamps was 28/32volts. Not 24v, the full charged voltage of the batteries would be 27v and the dynamo would give out 28v there or there about. That is one of the reason you can see  the lights glow brighter on mk1s as the speed picks up when the regulator changes from battery to dynamo supply.

 

Al Taylor

[Porcy Mane]

That is one of the reason you can see  the lights glow brighter on mk1s as the speed picks up when the regulator changes from battery to dynamo supply.

 Not if, compartment blinds down, you had unscrewed them to get some shut eye on an weekend overnight Newcastle/Penzance. Most times the guard would just ask you to make sure you replace them. You always needed a hankie to unscrew the hot b*ggers.

[meld]

I used to run with the Guards compartment light off when I worked the Paper Trains out of W/Loo.

 

Paper vans and GUV's had light switches internally by the doors.

 

Very dim and dingy inside and that was with the lights on ( except the Fluorescent tube lit Paper BG's and GUV's ), never helped by the always dirty in service windows on most parcels stock.

 

MC

[The Johnster]

 Not if, compartment blinds down, you had unscrewed them to get some shut eye on an weekend overnight Newcastle/Penzance. Most times the guard would just ask you to make sure you replace them. You always needed a hankie to unscrew the hot b*ggers.

 

Now that brings back memories!

[40034_Nick]

Great information guys... Thanks