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CCT Motorail 4w in passenger tra marshalling formmation BY




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#1 scottystitch

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 08:18

I have read here:

 

http://myweb.tiscali...ps/fo-motor.htm

 

that "After 1959 four and six wheeled stock was banned from passenger trains".

 

Yet I have a 1964 Train Marshalling document that states the Glasgow - Newhaven boat train used 12 CCTs for carriage of motor vehicles. A similar number are listed for the York - Inverness sleeper/motorail I am assuming that the former used BR CCT stock, whilst I am aware that the York - Inverness service using LNER CCTs. at least initially, due to weight restrictions north of Perth.

 

I've also seen a number of photographs from the 1980's showing a single CCT in a Fort William sleeper service.

 

So, I suppose the question is: is the statement above completely incorrect, or is it correct but with some kind of caveat?

 

Best regards

 

Scott

 


Edited by scottystitch, 21 July 2017 - 08:09 .




#2 Dunsignalling

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 08:30

It may be a case of regional terminology.

 

BR policy appears to have been to designate vehicles with end-loading provision as GUV (General Utility Van) if bogie-mounted and CCT (Covered Combination Truck) if 4-wheeled but the Eastern and North Eastern regions (plus, presumably, the ECML side of the Scottish region) operated bogie vehicles that were designated as CCTs (with various other letters as suffixes to denote particular types).

 

Your notice, therefore, may refer to bogie vehicles.

 

John


Edited by Dunsignalling, 20 July 2017 - 15:28 .


#3 scottystitch

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 08:44

It may be a case of regional terminology.

 

BR policy appears to have been to designate vehicles with end-loading provision as GUV (General Utility Van) if bogie-mounted and CCT (Covered Combination Truck) if 4-wheeled but the Eastern and North Eastern regions (plus, presumably, the ECML side of the Scottish region) operated bogie vehicles that were designated as CCTs (with various other letters as suffixes to denote particular types.

 

Your notice, therefore, may refer to bogie vehicles.

 

John

That was my initial thought, however the LNER CCTs were only ever of the 4W type.

 

And then there are these:

 

https://www.flickr.c...m-dTuYeN-wvDWtd - 2nd vehicle looks like a 4W CCT

 

https://www.flickr.c...-dTuYeN-wvDWtd/   -  This looks like a mixed train with passenger accomadation towards the rear adjacent the platform

 

https://www.flickr.c...r-oe1d6P-x9Bd8R  -  First vehicle is a SR CCT

 

https://www.flickr.c...r-oe1d6P-x9Bd8R  -  First vehicle is a BR CCT

 

 

So the 1959 appears to be incorrect. Should it be with the caveat of "unless of BR MK1 design" ?



#4 Fat Controller

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 09:12

That was my initial thought, however the LNER CCTs were only ever of the 4W type.

 

And then there are these:

 

https://www.flickr.c...m-dTuYeN-wvDWtd - 2nd vehicle looks like a 4W CCT

 

https://www.flickr.c...-dTuYeN-wvDWtd/   -  This looks like a mixed train with passenger accomadation towards the rear adjacent the platform

 

https://www.flickr.c...r-oe1d6P-x9Bd8R  -  First vehicle is a SR CCT

 

https://www.flickr.c...r-oe1d6P-x9Bd8R  -  First vehicle is a BR CCT

 

 

So the 1959 appears to be incorrect. Should it be with the caveat of "unless of BR MK1 design" ?

There were several types of bogie CCT of LNER/BR (E) origin:-

The CCT (E) vehicles based on underframes from passenger stock that had been displaced by the Shenfield- Southend electrification. These were withdrawn by the mid-1960s

The NER-designed purpose-built CCT(E), built in batches from the 1920s until BR days. Examples remained into the 1970s

The first type were used on Motorail services on the ER ( some branded 'Anglo-Scottish Car Carrier in large script), and also on some SR services.

I commend the trilogy of David Larkin books dedicated to non-passenger carrying coaching stock, which feature a wide selection of obscure types.



#5 cheesysmith

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 09:29

I wonder if the wording was to mean 4 or 6 wheeled passinger carrying stock? But then how do you explain the pacers?
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#6 anroar53

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 09:35

That was my initial thought, however the LNER CCTs were only ever of the 4W type.

 

And then there are these:

 

https://www.flickr.c...m-dTuYeN-wvDWtd - 2nd vehicle looks like a 4W CCT

 

https://www.flickr.c...-dTuYeN-wvDWtd/   -  This looks like a mixed train with passenger accomadation towards the rear adjacent the platform

 

https://www.flickr.c...r-oe1d6P-x9Bd8R  -  First vehicle is a SR CCT

 

https://www.flickr.c...r-oe1d6P-x9Bd8R  -  First vehicle is a BR CCT

 

 

So the 1959 appears to be incorrect. Should it be with the caveat of "unless of BR MK1 design" ?

Looking at BR Working Timetables can give a clue. In the early-mid 1960s a 'spade' symbol started to appear at the top of the train column. This meant 'Not to convey 4-wheel vehicles with a wheelbase of less than 15 feet'. Howevever this changed at the beginning of the 1970s when the 'spade' symbol was amended to 'Not to convey 4-wheel vehicles with a wheelbase of less than 18 feet'. At the same time a 'double spade' symbol appeared which stated 'Not to convey 4 or 6 wheel vehicles'. In the mid 1970s 4 wheel vehicles continued to be allowed in passenger formations as long as they fell into the 'single spade' category. One famous example being the Aberystwyth to York working. There are a number of other examples but would take to long to list.


Edited by anroar53, 20 July 2017 - 13:03 .

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#7 scottystitch

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 09:36

There were several types of bogie CCT of LNER/BR (E) origin:-

 

I sit corrected, FC, thanks for that. 

 

I have Volumes 2 and 3 of that Larkin series. Volume 1 on order.


Edited by scottystitch, 20 July 2017 - 09:36 .


#8 scottystitch

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 09:45

Looking at BR Working Timetables can give a clue. In the early-mid 1960s a 'spade' symbol started to appear at the top of the train column. This meant 'Not to convey 4-wheel vehicles with a wheelbase of less than 15 feet. Howevever this changed at the beginning of the 1970s when the 'spade' symbol was amended to 'Not to convey 4-wheel vehicles with a wheelbase of less than 18 feet'. At the same time a 'double spade' symbol appeared which stated 'Not to convey 4 or 6 wheel vehicles'. In the mid 1970s 4 wheel vehicles continued to be allowed in passenger formations as long as they fell into the 'single spade' category. One famous example being the Aberystwyth to York working. There are a number of other examples but would take to long to list.

Okay anroar, that is interesting and could solve the (my) problem.

 

I don't think I have a WTT for either of those trains, but I will have a look.

 

I'm trying to assemble my trains as accurately as possible, within reason, budget and skillset. Ergo, I don't want to rush out and buy 12 MK1 CCTs to find out they weren't on the train. I am struggling to find an image of the Glasgow/Newhaven train from 1964 (my time period)



#9 anroar53

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 10:05

Okay anroar, that is interesting and could solve the (my) problem.

 

I don't think I have a WTT for either of those trains, but I will have a look.

 

I'm trying to assemble my trains as accurately as possible, within reason, budget and skillset. Ergo, I don't want to rush out and buy 12 MK1 CCTs to find out they weren't on the train. I am struggling to find an image of the Glasgow/Newhaven train from 1964 (my time period)

 

Okay anroar, that is interesting and could solve the (my) problem.

 

I don't think I have a WTT for either of those trains, but I will have a look.

 

I'm trying to assemble my trains as accurately as possible, within reason, budget and skillset. Ergo, I don't want to rush out and buy 12 MK1 CCTs to find out they weren't on the train. I am struggling to find an image of the Glasgow/Newhaven train from 1964 (my time period)

Unfortunately I couldn't find that working, but in one of my Midland Line timetables of 1967 (earliest I have) is a 1O81 2010 Stirling to Newhaven Harbour  Motorail service which has the 'single spade' symbol in it. That would make the Mark 1 CCT eligible for inclusion at that time. I have seen a black and white photo of this working at Lewes with a '45' on the front, but the consist was not clear enough

to make out. 


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#10 scottystitch

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 10:25

Unfortunately I couldn't find that working, but in one of my Midland Line timetables of 1967 (earliest I have) is a 1O81 2010 Stirling to Newhaven Harbour  Motorail service which has the 'single spade' symbol in it. That would make the Mark 1 CCT eligible for inclusion at that time. I have seen a black and white photo of this working at Lewes with a '45' on the front, but the consist was not clear enough

to make out. 

That is the same/similar working, as the start/end point of that train did change over the years, between Glasgow, Newcastle and then, by 1967, Stirling. Originally it served Eastbourne but in 1964 it changed to Newhaven to serve the channel ferry.

 

Regardless, your information is probably good enough for me, certainly as a start. What route would that have taken, according to your timetables?



#11 CloggyDog

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 10:26

I wonder if the wording was to mean 4 or 6 wheeled passinger carrying stock? But then how do you explain the pacers?

 

That was my understanding of the '1959 ruling', that the restriction on 4 or 6 wheel stock applied ONLY to passenger-carrying stock.

 

4 or 6 wheel Parcel stock COULD continue in unchanged use after this date - the final Mk1 CCTs were withdrawn late-80s, IIRC.


Edited by CloggyDog, 20 July 2017 - 10:39 .

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#12 Fat Controller

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 10:28

To return to the original post; long-wheelbase 4-wheeled vehicles were to be seen in passenger trains long after the quoted date. Examples that spring immediately to mind are:-

pre-Nationalisation and BR CCTs, and pre-nationalisation PMVs as tail traffic on DMMU workings from West Wales to Swansea. (ran until the end of DMMU services)

Fruit D vans on Barnstaple- Exeter workings into the mid-1970s.

six-wheel milk tanks as tail traffic on a 'bubble-car' from Saltash to Plymouth.

One of the odder workings was in a photo I saw of a passenger train leaving Milford Haven with a 12t Pipe open wagon on the rear; presumably something urgent for one of the MoD establishments in the area.


Edited by Fat Controller, 20 July 2017 - 10:30 .


#13 anroar53

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 13:00

That is the same/similar working, as the start/end point of that train did change over the years, between Glasgow, Newcastle and then, by 1967, Stirling. Originally it served Eastbourne but in 1964 it changed to Newhaven to serve the channel ferry.

 

Regardless, your information is probably good enough for me, certainly as a start. What route would that have taken, according to your timetables?

The timetables I have only go back as far as Sheffield/Leeds, going south of there it ran via Derby, Leicester, Bedford, Hendon, Acton Wells, Clapham Junction, East Croydon and Lewes.

It would only be a guess that on the first bit of its journey it ran via Mossend, Lockerbie, Carlisle and over the Settle & Carlisle to Leeds? That's just a guess mind you. I'm still looking for that picture taken at Southerham Junction Lewes to see if I can make anything out of the consist of the train, haven't found it yet!

 

Andy.


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#14 scottystitch

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 13:04

Thanks Andy. That might tie in, because I'm sure the Glasgow terminus was St Enoch (although I could be wrong). I'd need to check when I get home. That being the case, it is very likely that it traversed the GSWR route through Kilmarnock and Dumfries and thence onto the Settle & Carlisle. 

 

That said, by the time it was starting from Stirling, it would make sense for it to take the route you suggest,  Mossend, Carstairs and thence the WCML over Beattock.



#15 AberdeenBill

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 15:34

Hi all,

 

I've posted this before, but it's a good one: a Thompson 6-wheel BZ in an express passenger train in 1967: https://www.flickr.c...57629213629810/  

 

Nigel Kendall's excellent Flickr site https://www.flickr.c...157629213629810 has numerous photos of four-wheel vans (Fruit Ds, SR, BR and LMS CCTs...) as parts of express passenger trains in the late 1960s on the Southern Region.  

 

Thanks,

Bill



#16 imt

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 16:21

IIf it is of any use 6 May 68 WTT shows 1A67 Dundee - Caledonian Road Car sleeper as a "spade" with "4 wheeled vehicles of less than 15' may not be conveyed". To my recollection our family car was carried to Inverness/Perth similarly on CCTs into the seventies.



#17 stovepipe

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 19:36

deleted


Edited by stovepipe, 21 July 2017 - 09:47 .


#18 scottystitch

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 20:15

The 1964 ScR carriage working book shows Glasgow St Enoch - Newhaven and return with N.F.W references - which means 'must not convey four-wheeled vehicles with a wheel-base of less than 15 feet.' So I reckon you should be ok with Mk1 CCTs....all 12 of 'em.

 

There are several photos of the train in 1969 at Kensington Olympia on Rail Online, and they certainly look like Mk1 CCTs by that stage.

Yes, that's the one. 

 

Good stuff, thanks gents for all the information and confirmation. 

 

Now I just need to decide what 4W brake van would have been tagged on to the end of the train........As long as it's wheelbase exceeds 15ft I guess.



#19 Fat Controller

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 21:15

Yes, that's the one. 

 

Good stuff, thanks gents for all the information and confirmation. 

 

Now I just need to decide what 4W brake van would have been tagged on to the end of the train........As long as it's wheelbase exceeds 15ft I guess.

You could probably use a BR Standard or LMS 50' full brake. I would suggest, however, that it should be on the end of the passenger carrying section train, rather than on the outer end of the car-carriers. This would allow the guard to deal with any problems with the passengers, and have access to such amenities as toilets; it would also mean the car-carrying portion could be unloaded without having to move the brake van out of the way. 



#20 Flood

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 21:18

Just for clarification. LNER and SR CCTs had a wheelbase of 21 ft and LMS CCTs had a wheelbase of 19ft so were all well over the 15ft wheelbase cut-off. Seeing as the LMS and LNER CCTs lasted until 1978 and the SR ones until about 1983 I can see no reason why these types could not have been used as opposed to solely BR built CCTs.


Edited by Flood, 20 July 2017 - 21:25 .

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#21 The Johnster

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 22:28

The speed restriction for 4 wheeled CCT, BY, PMV, and 6 wheeled BZ in the 70s was 75mph, and the timings of many of the passenger trains that conveyed them, some of which are mentioned above, were delineated accordingly.  Sub-18 foot wheebased NPCCS such as Insulfish were restricted to 60mph running, and XP rated goods vehicles to whatever speed they were allowed, 45mph for a vanfit.  The train was restricted to the speed of the lowest restricted vehicle, and the spade markings in the WTT indicated which trains were not to carry speed restricted vehicles.  Bogie stock was allowed to run at 90mph.  

 

As to formation, the guard rode in the rearmost van that was corridor connected to the passenger portion of the train, and up to 10 passenger carrying or 20 non passenger carrying vehicles could be marshalled behind the van; 20 bogie vehicles was the length limit determined by space in passing loops on most routes.  So, you might have a motorail with the guard's compartment in the vehicle next to the locomotive, 10 passenger carrying vehicles behind that, and a another 10 CCT's behind those.  A brake test had to be carried out before the train left the carriage sidings which showed that the brakes were working on the last 4 axles of the train, that is, the bogies of the last vehicle if it was a bogie vehicle, and the last two vehicle if they were 4 wheelers.  The guard had to be accessible to the passengers and in a heated vehicle during the steam heat season.


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#22 scottystitch

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:07

You could probably use a BR Standard or LMS 50' full brake. I would suggest, however, that it should be on the end of the passenger carrying section train, rather than on the outer end of the car-carriers. This would allow the guard to deal with any problems with the passengers, and have access to such amenities as toilets; it would also mean the car-carrying portion could be unloaded without having to move the brake van out of the way. 

There is already a BSK in the formation: BSK, SLS, SLS, SLS, CCT, CCT, CCT, CCT, CCT, CCT, CCT, CCT, CCT, CCT, CCT, CCT, BY

 

The schedule specifically states BY which, from what I can find out,  is specifically 4 wheeled. 

 

With that in mind, I wonder if it was one of the Southern Region 4W passenger brakes? With Newhaven being the destination, I'm guessing that the train was a Southern Region one? There are a couple illustrated in one of Larkin's volumes. In the absence of a suitable model, or a kit, I'd have to find something else. Possibly a SR PMV.

 

I agree, it would make sense for the BY to be between the SLS and the CCT....unless the CCT/BY portion detached at Newhaven and was shunted so that the Forward end, rather than the AFT end, discharged the vehicles.



#23 The Johnster

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:34

AFAIK no sleeping cars were ever allocated to the Southern Region, although the BY is very likely an SR one as modelled by Hornby.  It's presence may be explained by the need to provide heating for a guard riding in it; CCTs were not fitted with steam heating or through pipes for it and the BY has a stove in it.  If this is the case a LMS or LNER 6 wheeled BZ would have done just as well.


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#24 stovepipe

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:36

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Edited by stovepipe, 21 July 2017 - 09:46 .


#25 Fat Controller

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:56

There were some LNER-designed 'BY' brakes, sometimes referred to as 'Pigeon Vans'- Chivers Finelines do/did a nice kit. I wonder why the BY is stuck on the end like that; the guard would be in splendid isolation? I wonder if there was a shunting move where the train, or at least the car-carrying portion, was propelled for some distance?














Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: CCT, Motorail, 4w in passenger tra, marshalling, formmation, BY