IEP bi mode Changeover from Electric to Diesel

[pete_mcfarlane]

They've been doing that for years haven't they? Skipton was an issue but that's been rectified IIRC.

 

I was a regular user of the Yorkshire Pullman (17:33 ex-KGX) in 1997/8 when it ran to Bradford, and it was always an IC225. 

[The Stationmaster]

I was referring to changes between power sources, rather than between caternary systems shown here.

 

 

All of our designers have been out with drivers on various journeys to help understand the problems that they face, I try to talk to Drivers as often as I can to help understand the task of drivers and their environment, we all sit in on Signal Sighting Committees so we get to hear how trains are driven. When I talk to drivers (both current and former), they say they want as little distractions as possible in the cab.

 

Simon

 

The changeover from ET 25kv to BR (Railtrack) 750dc took place at 100 mph - generally with no problems although there were a couple of pan strikes (mind you at least one pan strike also occurred on the much lower speed West London Line so speed isn't really the only factor involved).  Don't forget that at the same time the single switch also changed the signalling system, altered the radio channel, and operated on-train safety equipment to/from Tunnel requirements.  Equally on the LGV neutral sections require the Driver - not ATP magnets as in the BR system - to do the work including lowering and raising the pans, at 186mph.

 

In my view, and experience of SPAD risk assessment, it is critical to have a proper risk assessment of the changeover process including its relationship to lineside/cab signals (as we did for all the changeover locations on CTRL/HS 1 in relation to SPAD risk assessment) and that process must include experienced Drivers or Traction Inspectors as Driver workload can be a critical element.

 

Automation clearly offers perceived advantages but in my view it can also offer disadvantages as it will rely entirely on equipment and that equipment will have a potential failure rate which will at times require a manual changeover, however rare.  Thus manual changeover has to be designed into the system in any case and it has to be properly risk assessed for every changeover location in both directions and obviously static changeover is going to be totally unacceptable because of the considerable trained in.  There then is the very simple - but often overlooked - matter of maintaining Driver competence, which might not be so easy if automatic changeovers are normally used.  

 

Equally as far as Driver workload is concerned any changeover will surely involve the Driver in checking that it has actually happened and that engines are running or pans have raised/lowered at the appropriate times?  All of that will have to take place alongside the requirement to observe signals/cab signalling and restrictions of speed and adding the operation of a switch to that process is hardly an onerous task.  In fact if the changeover requires more than the operation of a single switch there is something seriously amiss in the design of what is supposed (alleged?) to be a proper bi-mode train.

[Christopher125]

Would it be correct to assume that an all electric IEP will be able to work in multiple with a bi-mode IEP and work in multiple with one unit running on diesel and the other on electric..

 

Also two bi-modes in multiple one working on diesel the other on electric.

 

It may sound hypothetical but on the EC it could be the case that you might want to do it somewhere like approaching Newark, if one set is to be detached for Lincoln, running on diesel, with the other set continuing north on electric.

 

A pair of bi-modes working together in diesel and electric can be seen at the beginning of this video:

 

[D854_Tiger]

A pair of bi-modes working together in diesel and electric can be seen at the beginning of this video:

 

 

Presumably, the diesel running using its friction brakes and the electric running with rheostatic braking.

[royaloak]

Presumably, the diesel running using its friction brakes and the electric running with rheostatic braking.

Yes, the 800s only use the rheostatic brakes when on electric mode and the train goes through a neutral section (about 5 seconds maximum usage), the 802s also use the rheostatic brakes as the main brake when in diesel mode greatly reducing the wear on the discs and pads.

 

Just another omission on the DaFT specced fleet.

 

I am sure the Hitachi lawyers have been in contact with GWR/DaFT about the increased brake pad and disc wear (and so maintenance costs) as a result of the curtailment of the GWR electrification.

 

With the <large> charges imposed when it was decided the GWR 801s would be fitted with more engines and be delivered as proper bi-modes and now this change Hitachi will be laughing all the way to the bank, but hey whats the problem, the great British tax payer wont mind paying for their ineptitude for the next 27.5 years will we, and I am sure the (un)civil servants in charge of this mess will still be handsomely rewarded!

Edited August 17, 2017 by royaloak

[Dava]

Yes, the 800s only use the rheostatic brakes when on electric mode and the train goes through a neutral section (about 5 seconds maximum usage), the 802s also use the rheostatic brakes as the main brake when in diesel mode greatly reducing the wear on the discs and pads.

 

Just another omission on the DaFT specced fleet.

 

I am sure the Hitachi lawyers have been in contact with GWR/DaFT about the increased brake pad and disc wear (and so maintenance costs) as a result of the curtailment of the GWR electrification.

 

With the <large> charges imposed when it was decided the GWR 801s would be fitted with more engines and be delivered as proper bi-modes and now this change Hitachi will be laughing all the way to the bank, but hey whats the problem, the great British tax payer wont mind paying for their ineptitude for the next 27.5 years will we, and I am sure the (un)civil servants in charge of this mess will still be handsomely rewarded!

We do mind. We really do mind in the East Midlands as a result of the aborted electrification project which gets wires to Corby [really!!] and leaves the important East Midlands cities of Leicester, Nottingham and Derby [and Sheffield] reliant on these noddy trains which will be more costly, slower, give poorer environmental performance and be more failure prone than simple electrification. We see this in the 3.6% fare increase for no better service. And a major factor is the completely botched GWML electrification project which was scandalously mismanaged and scooped the pool of the available funding. HS2 anybody? Not in my working lifetime.

 

Dava

[pete_mcfarlane]

Yes, the 800s only use the rheostatic brakes when on electric mode and the train goes through a neutral section (about 5 seconds maximum usage), the 802s also use the rheostatic brakes as the main brake when in diesel mode greatly reducing the wear on the discs and pads.

 

Just another omission on the DaFT specced fleet.

 

On the other hand the 802s were ordered several years after the 800/801s, and version 2 of something often has features that weren't in version 1.  

[royaloak]

On the other hand the 802s were ordered several years after the 800/801s, and version 2 of something often has features that weren't in version 1.

But before any version 1s had been built, version 2 was always going to be better because the people who specced it knew what they wanted it to do and how to specify it.

 

Version 1 isnt even allowed along the seawall at Dawlish when its a bit breezy despite the rheo grids not being used on diesel power, why is that because I cant get anyone to answer the question.

Edited August 17, 2017 by royaloak

[D854_Tiger]

Version 1 isnt even allowed along the seawall at Dawlish when its a bit breezy despite the rheo grids not being used on diesel power, why is that because I cant get anyone to answer the question.

 

And a major factor is the completely botched GWML electrification project which was scandalously mismanaged and scooped the pool of the available funding. HS2 anybody? Not in my working lifetime.

 

I believe the class 800 is allowed that way, and over the Devon banks, but having only the de-rated version of the diesels most trains will be formed of 802s, even when the class 800s are temporarily uprated.

 

I am not familiar with the reasons for delay to GW electrification but would guess they are the same as the reasons for the delay and cost escalation of the WCML upgrade.

 

Namely, the unforeseen difficulties in upgrading what is still essentially a Victorian railway, whilst trying to maintain a near normal service over it.

 

A fairer comparison for HS2 is HS1 or Crossrail, both of which were (are being) delivered on time and on budget, the only unforeseen difficulties with HS2 are the planning process, when every man and their dog gets a chance to say why they don't want it to be built, even though virtually everything they have to say will be ignored in the end by that well known process of keeping them quiet through the payment of Danegeld.

[jim.snowdon]

A great deal of the WCML upgrade had to do with matters other than electrification, and whilst changes were made to the OLE, far the greater part of it is still held up by the structures that BR put there in the 1960s. The GW electrification is necessarily new, but there seems little doubt that its structures are heavily over-engineered, and the much hyped High Output installation train, at least as far as getting masts planted, has come in a distant second to the steam hauled electrification trains of the 1960s that contained machinery to bore the foundation holes, plant the poles in them and mix the concrete that was then placed round them, frequently with trains passing on the adjacent line. Now, we have armies of Road:Rail machines with pile driving attachments banging steel tube piles into the ground at a remarkably slow rate.

 

It isn't on the GWML, but the recently published report from the RAIB into how a tubular pile came to be still parked in the four-foot of a running line after the line was handed back to traffic makes interesting reading, not just for the events in question, but as an illustration of just how few piles got planted in that night's possession. The number planned wasn't exactly high, and the number actually planted was a fraction of that.

 

Jim