When TT3 was the next Big Thing

[Pacific231G]

Mine is loosely based around Mike Bryant's layout from Model Railway Constructor March 1958. I don't know if his was based on a Peco design or whether Peco based one around his. Mine has a couple of extra sidings, one on the lower level for a station and another on the upper level along with a loop line for exit to somewhere else. I used to have the Peco plan books but not seen them for a long time.

 

Garry

Hi Gary

I've got the articles on Mike Bryant's "Pint Pot" layout in a bound volume of MRC for 1958 and it still looks like a very attractive little layout. In fact I really rather wish I'd known about it when trying to  build a TT-3 layout as a youngster as I think it was a layout I could have managed. I do look forward to seeing your interpretation of it.

 

I did, and now do once again, have a copy of Mike Bryant's book Modelling in TT-3, from where this photo of Pint Pot appeared, Unfortunately there is no actual description or plan of the layout in the book. As a 10 or 11 years old, not knowing about the MRC articles, I remember finding this very frustrating.

 

Cyril Freezer's similar "Small and Simple" was a 5ft3ins by 3ft plan that didn't appear in Railway Modeller until March 1964 and was also published in Peco's Track Plans booklet the same year. It does frankly look like a bit of a steal from Pint Pot six years later. The main difference was that Pint Pot was a single scene making good use of the different levels of track whereas Small and Simple was divided into two scenes by a double sided backscene behind the high level terminus. There was a layout featured in RM a couple or so years later that used the Small and Simple plan but it did seem rather cramped compared with Pint Pot.

 

I also can't help thinking that, because the reverse curve makes a single solid baseboard almost inevitable, it would be a bit too much of a lump in 00.In TT-3 Mike Bryant's 4x2 layout was portable and I think his design is also rather more elegan than Cyril Freezer'st. Are you also using a 4x2 plan.

.  

Edited December 2, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi Gary

I've got the articles on Mike Bryant's "Pint Pot" layout in a bound volume of MRC for 1958 and it still looks like a very attractive little layout. In fact I really rather wish I'd known about it when trying to build a TT-3 layout as a youngster as I think it was a layout I could have managed. I do look forward to seeing your interpretation of it.

Modelling in TT3 frontspiece.jpg

 

I did have a copy of Mike Bryant's book Modelling in TT-3, from where this photo of Pint Pot appeared, but there was no actual description or plan of the layout which, not knowing about the MRC articles, found as an 11 year old very frustrating.

 

Cyril Freezer's similar "Small and Simple" was a 5ft3ins by 3ft plan that didn't appear in Railway Modeller until March 1964 and was also published in Peco's Track Plans booklet the same year. It does frankly look like a bit of a steal from Pint Pot six years later. The main difference was that Pint Pot was a single scene making good use of the different levels of track whereas Small and Simple was divided into two scenes by a double sided backscene behind the high level terminus. There was a layout featured in RM a couple or so years later using the Small and Simple plan but it seems a bit cramped compared with Pint Pot.

 

I also can't help thinking that, because the reverse curve makes a single solid baseboard almost inevitable, it would be a bit too much of a lump in 00.In TT-3 Mike Bryant's 4x2 layout was portable and I think his design is also rather more elegan than Cyril Freezer'st. Are you also using a 4x2 plan.

.

To give a little more flexibility, and due to using Tri-ang track, mine is 4'9" x 2'6". That did not seem much bigger when planning and making the board but as time has gone on and more track work done it seems considerably larger. I did think the incline was steep but it is less than if using Tri-ang's piers, that took 4 track lengths and mine is 5. I have the same book and also a magazine with his track plan in. My upper level will be a little more fun for operational purposes I think. This layout will at times be used by two operators at shows. There are exits at either end to use the layout else where if needed.

 

I don't know much about Mike Bryant's scenery but mine will have more than in the photos. I have decided to put a short platform on the main line alongside the incline start as I am looking at letting some children play with it at school events etc and it will be something for them to start and stop from. I am hoping to fit a level crossing on the incline curve instead of MB's bridge and tunnel and also other little differences. On mine there will be scenery on the far side of the incline too, only about 1" wide but this why I wanted a slightly larger baseboard as I hope to have it as fully scenic as possible.

 

Garry

Edited December 3, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[Pacific231G]

To give a little more flexibility, and due to using Tri-ang track, mine is 4'9" x 2'6". That did not seem much bigger when planning and making the board but as time has gone on and more track work done it seems considerably larger. I did think the incline was steep but it is less than if using Tri-ang's piers, that took 4 track lengths and mine is 5. I have the same book and also a magazine with his track plan in. My upper level will be a little more fun for operational purposes I think. This layout will at times be used by two operators at shows. There are exits at either end to use the layout else where if needed.

 

I don't know much about Mike Bryant's scenery but mine will have more than in the photos. I have decided to put a short platform on the main line alongside the incline start as I am looking at letting some children play with it at school events etc and it will be something for them to start and stop from. I am hoping to fit a level crossing on the incline curve instead of MB's bridge and tunnel and also other little differences. On mine there will be scenery on the far side of the incline too, only about 1" wide but this why I wanted a slightly larger baseboard as I hope to have it as fully scenic as possible.

 

Garry

Thanks Gary.

I definitely look forward to seeing it. Pint Pot is a plan I've always had a bit of a soft spot for and I do like the idea of early "proprietary" products, especially the Tri-ang TT-3 I had in my youth, being used to build a "proper" layout that can be operated rather than just a series of circuits.

 

Looking through his first article again; although Mike Bryant managed to get Pint Pot's trackwork onto a 4ft x 2ft Weyroc board using Gem track, the 2x1 framing was outside that and flush with the main board so added 2 inches to each dimension. His plan for it using Tri-ang track (presumably type A that early) also required a slightly larger baseboard of 4ft 4ins x 2ft 3ins but with the same outside framing that would have been 4'6" x 2'5" so not much smaller than yours. 

The track I had in about 1960 was type B with hand operated points but I think the overall geometry was the same

Edited December 3, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Il Grifone]

TRACK ISSUES

 

One photo shows what I mentioned earlier about the different rail profiles used and you can clearly see how much rounder/thinner one is to the other.

 

The other photos show why I have found a couple of locos "jumping" on a corner.  The curve in question has a gauge of only 11.41 at the end, in the middle it is 11.96 and at its other end 12.05mm.  The vernier is not at an angle as the photo makes out but if it was then placed more squarely the gauge would be narrower still.

 

The locos in question so far are both open spoked wheels which on measuring are 10.16 and 10.2 back to back as opposed to 10.00 on the solid wheel sets, so the wider wheel and narrower gauge are giving a hic-cup.  I will see if I have another to replace it with which I should have somewhere.

 

Garry

 

Hi Garry,

 

This is the standard problem with proprietary track (Dublo suffers from it too), where the extreme ends of the rail have not been curved and the last centimetre or so is still straight. The result is a dog-leg and the gauge can easily tighten by half a millimetre or so. Careful bending with pliers and possibly tightening of the rail joiner will cure it. A good tip I read years ago is that, if you can feel a bump at the rail joint, it's not good enough.

 

David

[NCB]

Interesting how small and simple layouts can linger in the memory for a long, long time. When TT3 first came out one of the magazines (RM?) built a rather nice compact scenic layout on a solid baseboard to show the possibilities. Interesting thing was that you viewed the baseboard end-on, i.e. a short side was nearest the viewer. This meant that you had good views of both long sides as well as the short side. The line at the far end was in a tunnel. Think it was partially double track and had two small but different stations. Probably only had a couple of Jinties to operate. I've yet to track down the magazine.

 

Nigel

[Golden Fleece 30]

Thanks Gary.

I definitely look forward to seeing it. Pint Pot is a plan I've always had a bit of a soft spot for and I do like the idea of early "proprietary" products, especially the Tri-ang TT-3 I had in my youth, being used to build a "proper" layout that can be operated rather than just a series of circuits.

 

Looking through his first article again; although Mike Bryant managed to get Pint Pot's trackwork onto a 4ft x 2ft Weyroc board using Gem track, the 2x1 framing was outside that and flush with the main board so added 2 inches to each dimension. His plan for it using Tri-ang track (presumably type A that early) also required a slightly larger baseboard of 4ft 4ins x 2ft 3ins but with the same outside framing that would have been 4'6" x 2'5" so not much smaller than yours. 

The track I had in about 1960 was type B with hand operated points but I think the overall geometry was the same

That is very interesting about the baseboards, I always thought 2' was very tight to have the loop, incline, and be clear of being on the edges.  I was never keen on the more realistic Type B which is why I am doing the layout in Type A (as you say that was the only one available when he built his), dimension wise the straights were different with the Type a full length at 9 1/16" and type B at 9 3/16" with half straights points etc adjusted to match.

 

David,

 

I have found a couple of curves so will replace the one in question and keep the poor one to cut up if I need a short curve again.

 

Garry

Edited December 3, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[Golden Fleece 30]

Interesting how small and simple layouts can linger in the memory for a long, long time. When TT3 first came out one of the magazines (RM?) built a rather nice compact scenic layout on a solid baseboard to show the possibilities. Interesting thing was that you viewed the baseboard end-on, i.e. a short side was nearest the viewer. This meant that you had good views of both long sides as well as the short side. The line at the far end was in a tunnel. Think it was partially double track and had two small but different stations. Probably only had a couple of Jinties to operate. I've yet to track down the magazine.

 

Nigel

Hope you find it Nigel, it will be interesting to see.

 

Garry

[Golden Fleece 30]

The main track is all down and in the process of testing, the goods siding needs a 3/4 straight then a couple of buffer stops.  A few teaks done and possibly a couple more before I can start on the high level.  What I have noticed is that the points do not like having the track either side of them screwed down fully.  I guess due to the thin aluminium sheet underneath.  I did have it removed on a few points only to find it supports the blade switch from dropping out of mesh with the pin.  All fun and games.  Working reasonably well so far so hopefully a couple of days should see this part complete. As you can see there are two points at each end of the loop which are for storage/extensions etc. These will most likely have the Wrenn adapter tracks used as other boards will be Peco/Gem track.

 

After last nights hic-cup a new curve has been fitted and the jobs a "gud un" as we say here.

 

Just need a few Hornby Dublo black and green switches (at the right price) for the sidings and reverse loop.  I use two green ones as a DPDT and maybe add a black one as a centre off style switch.  Dublo switches are the best in my opinion.

 

Garry

Edited December 3, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[NCB]

Hope you find it Nigel, it will be interesting to see.

 

Garry

 

Had a look through my somewhat depleted collection of RMs for that era; no sign of it. Think March 1956 RM, of which the cover has the banner "TT3 is here" might be a good bet, or the immediately following months.

 

Ed: correction; should be 1957 not 1956

Edited December 4, 2017 by NCB

[Golden Fleece 30]

The loco body arrived today with quite a few other bits in it. 

 

1)  Some wheels look like Romford's but with black centres in two different diameters - these will be useful.  

2)  Some wheels (Keen/Maygib?) most still in sealed packets - these I do not want as they look too fine and have round axles IF ANY ONE HAS ANY ROMFORDS (or Tri-ang Britannia open spoke wheels)  AND WANT TO SWAP PLEASE SAY SO.

3)  A few wheels I have no idea of origin but all round axle types and have either been manufactured like this or modified with a centre bush - again these I do not want and have round axles, IF ANY ONE HAS ANY ROMFORDS (or Tri-ang Britannia wheels) AND WANT TO SWAP PLEASE SAY SO.

4)  A lot of bogie wheels, XT60 motor a pair of open spoke Tri-ang wheels etc - these will be useful.

5)  A few castings, 2 are 6  wheel tanks and will be useful, others are coach bogies and willing to swap for Tri-ang bogies.

6)  Superquick station building - really useful for my layout and the first time I have ever had one.  Recently two of these kits sold for more than I paid for all these items put together.

7)  The loco body - really useful but no roof as someone asked about earlier.  Its chassis has already gone in the bin.

8)  HAA hopper van - not really for me and is possibly going to someone who has already expressed an interest in it.

9)  Quite a few transfers and tarpaulins.

 

Garry

[5050]

Are the 'round axle wheels' the ones sold by the 3mm Society?

[Pacific231G]

Interesting how small and simple layouts can linger in the memory for a long, long time. When TT3 first came out one of the magazines (RM?) built a rather nice compact scenic layout on a solid baseboard to show the possibilities. Interesting thing was that you viewed the baseboard end-on, i.e. a short side was nearest the viewer. This meant that you had good views of both long sides as well as the short side. The line at the far end was in a tunnel. Think it was partially double track and had two small but different stations. Probably only had a couple of Jinties to operate. I've yet to track down the magazine.

 

Nigel

Hi Nigel

I've been through my bound volumes of RM for 1957-(update)1962 and found nothing that meets your description. In any case layouts built "in house" were never really RM's style and their featured layouts were almost invariably built by contributors.

It may have been in MRN but are you sure it wasn't Pint Pot from MRC in 1958?. This is the layout plan that Gary (Golden Fleece 30) has developed his layout from. The pictures illustrating the five articles about the original 4ft x 2ft layout tended to be taken from the end rather than the side.

 

 

This is the sole photograph illustrating pt 4. The five articles by Mike Bryant were a blow by blow "how to build it" feature.

 

The only really good full view of the layout from the side was the one in Mike Bryant's small book "Modelling in TT-3" that I attached to post  #376 a couple of days ago.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Pacific231G

[TT3]

I do like the TT superquick station kit, was looking everywhere for that at one stage.

 

Re the Brit bodies, the conversion I always liked was the rebuilt bulleid complete with MN drivers, brit valve gear and a neat cut/shut body.

[whart57]

Are the 'round axle wheels' the ones sold by the 3mm Society?

 

The round axle wheels were sold by the 3mm Society. The "KM" prefix indicates they are Keen-Maygib wheels which were sold by the Society back in the 1980s. Production ceased around 1990. About eight years ago the Society invested a lot of money in recreating the range that KM and Romford had filled in the 70s and 80s and these are the ones with square axle holes and axles to match.

 

There are plastic centred wheels with round axle holes sold by the Society today, but they have a finer tyre profile and are intended for 14.2mm gauge finescale.

[Golden Fleece 30]

I do like the TT superquick station kit, was looking everywhere for that at one stage.

 

Re the Brit bodies, the conversion I always liked was the rebuilt bulleid complete with MN drivers, brit valve gear and a neat cut/shut body.

I have been looking for the Superquick TT station and I think I have seen three on Ebay, all going for near £30 which I was not going to pay so really pleased this was included in the box of parts.

 

I did try the M/N conversion about 35 years ago which never worked out so last year when I got back into TT I glued the boiler section to the cab again to use as the 9F.

 

The round axle wheels were sold by the 3mm Society. The "KM" prefix indicates they are Keen-Maygib wheels which were sold by the Society back in the 1980s. Production ceased around 1990. About eight years ago the Society invested a lot of money in recreating the range that KM and Romford had filled in the 70s and 80s and these are the ones with square axle holes and axles to match.

 

There are plastic centred wheels with round axle holes sold by the Society today, but they have a finer tyre profile and are intended for 14.2mm gauge finescale.

 

Whart57, I assume you are only talking about the KM round axles?  Any ideas on the other round axled wheels with a centre bush like Tri-ang/Dublo locos?

 

Pacific231G

 

Lovely photo showing the majority of the layout, it actually looks quite small to mine but looks can be deceiving.  I will try to create a similar view later although my upper station is/will be a bit different.

 

Garry

[whart57]

 

Whart57, I assume you are only talking about the KM round axles?  Any ideas on the other round axled wheels with a centre bush like Tri-ang/Dublo locos?

 

 

They may be the early Chris Hardy wheels. Those were all metal and assembled - so I am told, you need to be a member of 1970s vintage to have been able to buy them - using a threaded axle, nuts and Araldite. Some lurid tales are told of Chris' production methods where the description "hazardous" is probably the most neutral. One reason why no-one took over the production when Chris retired.

[5050]

They may be the early Chris Hardy wheels. Those were all metal and assembled - so I am told, you need to be a member of 1970s vintage to have been able to buy them - using a threaded axle, nuts and Araldite. Some lurid tales are told of Chris' production methods where the description "hazardous" is probably the most neutral. One reason why no-one took over the production when Chris retired.

I saw some at Manchester over the weekend being used for 14.2 finescale 3mm work, very nice profile for the tyres and fine cast whitemetal spokes and fitting on 2mm axles I believe. Regarding the 'hazardous' comment, I was told that the walls of the workshop had a fair bit of whitemetal  from the centrifugal casting method decorating them!

[Golden Fleece 30]

I had thought of moving on the "Chris Hardy?" wheels but just noticed 3 extended axles in the box.  How these could ever be used for a steam loco i will never know as the nut would prevent the coupling rods revolving, but, having just put a couple of sets together there is a possibility I could use six of them for an 08 and solder return cranks on the axles.  No idea when as plenty of other things on the go but will keep them in the roundtuit box.

 

I have now fixed the 4 Dublo section and 2 reverse loop switches on the lower level and wiring is complete.  I have had a bit of play with it today and tweaked another couple of hic-cups but it seems to work well.  Due to commitments it will be Friday (weather permitting) before I can take a video but for now I can concentrate on finalising the upper level.  There is a piece of plasticard stretching across the track width in two places on the reverse loop which is for insulation purposes.  It was fitted oversize, glued in, and then filed level with the rail tops and inside edges for a smooth wheel transition.

 

Garry

ps  The hopper wagon and the KM wheels have all been spoken for.

[NCB]

The TT Superquick station kit is a nice one. Don't think they did a version of this kit in OO. According to Wikepedia they also did a TT signal box and goods shed, but don't think I've ever seen these.

 

Nigel

[NCB]

Hi Nigel

I've been through my bound volumes of RM for 1957-(update)1962 and found nothing that meets your description. In any case layouts built "in house" were never really RM's style and their featured layouts were almost invariably built by contributors.pint pot pt 4 MRC May 58.jpg

 

Are you sure it wasn't Pint Pot from MRC in 1958?. This is the layout plan that Gary (Golden Fleece 30) has developed his layout from. The pictures illustrating the five articles about the original 4ft x 2ft layout tended to be taken from the end rather than the side.

 

pint pot pt 4 MRC May 58.jpg

 

This is the sole photograph illustrating pt 4. The five articles by Mike Bryant were a blow by blow "how to build it" feature.

 

The only really good full view of the layout from the side was the one in Mike Bryant's small book "Modelling in TT-3" that I attached to post  #376 a couple of days ago.

 

Definitely not Pint Pot. Thanks for looking. If it's not RM then it must be MRN or MRC. The track itself was all on one level.

 

Nigel

[Golden Fleece 30]

The TT Superquick station kit is a nice one. Don't think they did a version of this kit in OO. According to Wikepedia they also did a TT signal box and goods shed, but don't think I've ever seen these.

 

Nigel

I have not seen them either Nigel but would have liked the goods shed to go with the station building although that might be too big for this layout.  If the signal box was based on the 00 version then no.

 

Garry

[NCB]

Definitely not Pint Pot. Thanks for looking. If it's not RM then it must be MRN or MRC. The track itself was all on one level.

 

Nigel

Found MRN indexes for 1957 and nothing there. Found a few MRC indexes for 1957 and there is some TT stuff, at least one by Edward Beal,

[Pacific231G]

Definitely not Pint Pot. Thanks for looking. If it's not RM then it must be MRN or MRC. The track itself was all on one level.

 

Nigel

Hi Nigel

I'd be interested to see it then.

There was a railway of the month in the March 1959 RM "First Steps in TT-3" by P.B.Murton. This was a double track oval hidden by a tunnel at one end with plenty of scenery but that was based on a fairly conventional through station and relatively large for TT-3 at 8ft by 4ft. Although the layout was a solid rectange it was actually buit on five portable baseboards joined by pin hinges. It also had its controls along the front eight foot side. I think I've got some more MRCs and MRNs from that period so when I have a chance I'll look through them.

[whart57]

I had thought of moving on the "Chris Hardy?" wheels but just noticed 3 extended axles in the box.  How these could ever be used for a steam loco i will never know as the nut would prevent the coupling rods revolving, but, having just put a couple of sets together there is a possibility I could use six of them for an 08 and solder return cranks on the axles.  No idea when as plenty of other things on the go but will keep them in the roundtuit box.

 

 

The nuts were just to hold the wheels while the Araldite set. If you have access to the 3mm Society's Yahoo discussion group there is a scan of Chris Hardy's original assembly instructions on file there.

Edited December 6, 2017 by whart57

[locomad]

Hi Nigel

I'd be interested to see it then.

There was a railway of the month in the March 1959 RM "First Steps in TT-3" by P.B.Murton. This was a double track oval hidden by a tunnel at one end with plenty of scenery but that was based on a fairly conventional through station and relatively large for TT-3 at 8ft by 4ft. Although the layout was a solid rectange it was actually buit on five portable baseboards joined by pin hinges. It also had its controls along the front eight foot side. I think I've got some more MRCs and MRNs from that period so when I have a chance I'll look through them.

y

 

Interesting

 

Same month

 

Standards ?