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G'day all,

 

I'm looking to convert one of the newer Hornby Castles into Pendennis Castle as she was when in Australia between 1977 - 2000. I was wondering which of the newer tooling Castles would be best to use, obviously it would have to be a GWR liveried one, that much I know!

 

Thanks all and much appreciated.

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Caerphilly Castle is the only Hornby release that is almost right apart from the small tender an rear sand boxes are in the lower position on 4079 but caerphilly has them in the original position. I'm converting caerphilly in to pendennis at the moment

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She is definitely the latter version as see at Didcot yesterday, her current boiler we were told start life on a Star.  :senile:  :locomotive:

Edited by 81C
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Hi All,

 

Pendennis Castle has the early 'Star style' frames with the joggled front end and narrow inside cylinder block that were made a foot or so longer to accommodate the later Collett style cab. The boiler is 1937 vintage and was first fitted to Viscount Horne which was a Star conversion but it was worn when it was a Castle. Stars have the No. 1 boiler and Castles the No. 8.

 

The version of 4079 I have made is a combination of two castles. The loco is the Caerphilly Castle release and the tender is from Tintagel Castle as the No. 4073 release has a 3,500 gallon tender which is right for that loco in preservation. The good news is that Tintagel spent a brief period pulling a 3,500 gallon tender so it's correct for that engine too!

 

The build of little No. 4079 is on my little Didcot thread somewhere - link below.

 

I hope this helps!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

Edited by Castle
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She is definitely the latter version as see at Didcot yesterday, her current boiler we were told start life on a Star.  :senile:  :locomotive:

 

That cannot be right.  Stars were fitted with the Churchward designed Swindon standard no1 boiler, in common with Saints, 28xx, Halls, and Granges; Castles were fitted with various versions of the Collett designed no7, a larger, 'fatter', and heavier boiler used on that class only.  It is more likely on a Castle that the frames originated on Stars, as some Castles were rebuilt from Star to Castle specification.

 

Then again, we all started life under the stars...

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That cannot be right. Stars were fitted with the Churchward designed Swindon standard no1 boiler, in common with Saints, 28xx, Halls, and Granges; Castles were fitted with various versions of the Collett designed no7, a larger, 'fatter', and heavier boiler used on that class only. It is more likely on a Castle that the frames originated on Stars, as some Castles were rebuilt from Star to Castle specification.

 

Then again, we all started life under the stars...

Hi Johnster,

 

See above - it did start life on a Star, shortly after its conversion to a Castle! Viscount Horne being the exact loco... So you are both right, from a certain point of view...* The No. 7 boiler was for the 47XXs, the Castle boiler was the No. 8.

 

I hope this helps!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

 

*With apologies to Obi Wan Kenobi.

Edited by Castle
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No.8 nor n.7 then; I stand duly corrected.  Quite a few Castles had Star frames, which were very similar, I believe, as well as of course Stars actually rebuilt into Castles, and of course The Great Bear was rebuilt as a Castle with very little visual indication of it's origin.  But the boiler was definitely very different, as were the larger cylinders.  We may be running into the 'all GW engines look the same' syndrome a little here...

 

The numbering sequence indicates how Collett and the design team viewed them perhaps, behind and out of sight of all the Wembley 'most powerful locomotive in Britain' hype from the publicity department, as they were simply a continuation of the Star number sequence 4072-4073, 4073 becoming the class designation in the same way as 5205, 2884, 4575, 6959, or 5101, a matter of detail differences and development of an earlier class rather than a brand new bottom up re-think everything design.  They were continually tweaked throughout their lives with different superheater and draughting arrangements, as were many other steam loco classes.

Edited by The Johnster
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Hi Johnster,

 

I don't think you took the comment by 81C in the spirit it was intended... The boiler that is on No. 4079 in preservation is No. 6672 HD that is an HD series (there were several different types within the No. 8 design) Swindon Standard No. 8 boiler that was built in 1937. This unit was first fitted to Viscount Horne immediately on its conversion from a Star to a Castle. I agree that no Castle had a No. 1 boiler because that would mean it was a Star with big cylinders and a Collett cab and that didn't happen... The point being made by 81C was that the first locomotive that No. 6672HD was fitted to was a loco that was being converted from a Star to a Castle hence 81C's tongue in cheek comment about it being first fitted to a 'Star'. We on the Pendennis Castle restoration team can claim that to a certain degree that it is the largest surviving component of a Star to Castle conversion that survives. From a certain point of view that is...*

 

Of course Castle boilers, like other standard types, were pooled at Swindon and when a used example was removed from the frames of the loco then the next overhauled example was lifted in during the locomotive's overhaul. To claim that No. 6672 HD is a part of a Star conversion is fairly arbitrary but it is an interesting fact! As I am sure you know, Collett's original intention had been to enlarge the Star by fitting the Standard No. 7 or 47XX boiler to the 40XX frames but this proved to be too heavy on paper so he redesigned the No. 7 to be lighter and that became the No. 8. This may be part of your confusion of the two types.

 

All the early Castles (4073 - 4092) had 'Star style' frames that were a foot longer than the Stars (the original works drawings of the Castles is reputed to have been the Star ones altered in red pencil to show the differences between the two designs) and the Star conversions (4009 (later 100 A1), 4000, 4016, 4032, 4037, 5083-5092) had an extra foot of metal added to the end of the frames to accommodate the larger Collett cab of the Castle design. It is thought possible that No. 111 had mostly new frames when converted from a Pacific to a Castle. The cylinders on the late Stars and the early Castles look externally very similar. They both had a narrow inside cylinder block casting that was encased by joggled frames that narrow the front of the loco in order to allow the front bogie wheels to turn. The rear bogie wheels move through a semi-circular cut out near the outside cylinders. The smokebox saddle was enlarged as well from the Star to the Castle to accommodate the larger diameter smokebox.

 

The later Castles (4092-4099, 5000-5082, 5093-5099, 7000-7037) differed by having a wider middle cylinder block casting which necessitated the change in the front end from the joggled Star design to the straight through design with small dished sections to allow the bogie wheels to turn. The Kings (6000-6029) also had a similar design. All part of the evolution of GWR locomotives that you refer to.

 

Not all GWR locos look the same - in fact, if you know what you are looking at, a really interesting story of evolution can be told. Perhaps we could discuss the De Glehn influence in the bogie and inside big ends of the GWR 4 cylinders machines or the amount of American practice that Churchward was so influenced by. The Swindon standard No. 3 style superheater development from the earlier commercially available systems is also an interesting tale as is the heroic efforts of Sam Ell and his team when re-engineering the Kings and Castles with such things as double chimneys and 4 row super heaters in the last decade of BR(W) steam. Read O. S. Nock's Stars, Castles and Kings for a good primer on the story on a lot of this although take the chapter on the mythical Hawksworth Pacific with a pinch of salt...

 

If you would like any more information about Pendennis Castle then please visit myself and my restoration team at Didcot and we will show you our project locomotive, No. 5051 Earl Bathurst and No. 6023 King Edward II and you can literally see in metal how this incredible design evolved from Churchward's elegant Edwardian masterpiece, the Star, to become arguably the most successful express passenger steam locomotive type the UK ever produced** and branch off to become one of the most powerful as well.

 

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

 

*Sorry again Obi Wan Kenobi!

**This will definitely set someone off but I'm biased! This is certainly true in terms of numbers built I think with well over 200 locos to essentially the same design, enlarged or otherwise as Stars, Castles and Kings built in batches between 1906/7 (dependant upon whether you count No. 40 / No. 4000 North Star - quite different from the production 40XX machines in several areas - as the start or No. 4001 Dog Star as the first production 40XX) and 1950, to the same basic design, that HAS to count for something!

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I was involved in the original dismantling of Pendennis Castle back in 2000/1 & just hope the current team are coping with my arachnid scrawl on all the parts I labelled. It would be a treat to see it again. Perhaps I could include Didcot during my next UK visit even though with my now reduced mobility I would find the walk from the car park to the shed itself a bit daunting. All said good luck with the project

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Thank you Castle for your very complete and informative response, which clears up matters very considerably.  I was, to be honest, more mistaken than confused about the difference between a number 7 and a number 8 boiler; of course I was aware that the 47xx boiler was unique to that class, and that Castles underwent a continuous development over the many years that they were in production, as you'd expect, but you have illustrated many of the details for me.

 

You are preaching to the choir here as far 'arguably the most successful express passenger steam locomotive type the UK ever produced', it was certainly by any standard the most successful 4-6-0 express passenger loco in my view.  Rebuilt Royal Scots or Patriots may have been close for power, but were notoriously bad riders.  

 

Earl Bathurst is an old friend, and I would love to visit; in fact it is a very long time since I've been to Didcot, and I should call in again soon!  

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A quick question. The last batch stars were all rebuilt into castles. Did they keep their joggle or was that taken out in the rebuild? If the latter, and the rebuilds got a new cylinder block, why weren't the original castles "upgraded" as and when they went through Swindon?

 

David

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Hi Peter,

 

Good to hear from you! Yes - where the labels have survived, they are very useful - thanks! Where they haven't, the stump of card or little bit of string is a bit frustrating - it's sort of like the part saying "I know what I am but I'm not telling you!"

 

When you are next in the UK please PM me and we will sort out a time for you to come and meet the team and see the locomotive again. I am really sorry to hear that you are struggling with your health. The railway centre has arrangements in place to help out with visitors with reduced mobility as the GWR were not thinking of such things when they built the shed... Again, send a PM and things can be arranged to make your visit as smooth and enjoyable as possible.

 

All the best,

 

Castle

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A quick question. The last batch stars were all rebuilt into castles. Did they keep their joggle or was that taken out in the rebuild? If the latter, and the rebuilds got a new cylinder block, why weren't the original castles "upgraded" as and when they went through Swindon?

David

Hi Clearwater,

 

The last Stars did keep their joggled frames. I guess the earlier Castles didn't get upgraded cylinders because the updates were to do with the production methods used to build the locomotive and make it easier and more efficient. It didn't improve the performance of the locomotive. Swindon had the patterns to make the centre cylinder block in both sizes and to a certain degree - how more or less difficult was it to cast one or the other to replace a worn item? They had the patterns after all and the with the Swindon factory system it was easily made. No. 4079 is on her third set of cylinders...

 

I hope this helps!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

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Hello all,

 

at least one of the Star re-builds had both types of front end.

 

5088 1954 with joggled frames,

post-8920-0-12927500-1501842172_thumb.jpg

 

5088 1963 with straight frames.

post-8920-0-94666500-1501842152_thumb.jpg

 

There may be more but I don't have any photos showing them.

 

The photos are copyright and are only used to illustrate a point.

 

OzzyO.

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Hi All,

 

Ozzyo is of course quite right but the question was upon rebuilding from Star to Castle which as we can see above reused the Star style front end. I perhaps wasn't quite clear in that I didn't mean to imply that no Castle got updated frames, it was just that many didn't - No. 4079 included - despite having thier inside cylinders replaced. Thanks for the clarification to Ozzyo as this definitely is a bit misleading of me - cheers!

 

I think I'm right in saying that none of the early Star conversions got updated frames. Some of the early 'Star style framed' Castles did eventually get the update and a few of the Abbeys did too. The conversions are not easy to spot as when locos such as No. 4074 Caldicott Castle got 4 row superheat / double chimney, they also got a narrow version of the box type inside cylinder valve cover under the smokebox. So, updated boiler and draughting but joggled frames to the end. The Abbeys also had the narrow box covers too. This means you have to be a bit careful and rely on looking at the patterns of rivets and so on at the front end. See Ozzyo's post above as it is a great example of the narrow and wide box covers.

 

I suspect that the reasons such joggled to straight frame conversions were done was due to the cracking of frames and if you needed to replace large chunks of frames, then I guess you go for the later, easier to make arrangement. These conversions seem to have been a later in life job and numerous engines had it done No. 4078 Pembroke Castle being an interesting one as it had the later inside cylinder block and straight frames, got a three row superheater boiler and mechanical lubricator (as per the later Castles) but never had a 4 row superheater / double chimney arrangement - which answers Miss Prism's point to a degree...

 

As with any standard GWR designed locomotive - they were all different and as a result, model it from a photograph!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

Edited by Castle
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  • 3 weeks later...

G'day all,

 

Wow! Go offline for a while (life and workplace incidents) and come back to a wealth of information! In the time since I've started the thread my chosen Castle has arrived (5011 Tintagel Castle (I'm searching for a Caerphilly body to replace it)) with much of the work beginning in earnest. New name and number plates were ordered from Fox Transfers and placed over the originals. A cast brass Stones type headlight has been affixed to the smokebox door and the frames painted Indian red.

 

post-23921-0-38211000-1503352832_thumb.jpg

 

post-23921-0-66039200-1503352734_thumb.jpg

 

The shunters pole and step have been added since the two attached photos were taken. The Hammersley Iron decals have been drawn up and sent to Fox in the hopes they'll be able to do a small run of them.

 

post-23921-0-77478800-1503353071.jpg

 

When finished my loco will be much the same condition as the attached photo. The FS cars will be relatively easy to do as they'll just be straight repaints of RTR models available nowadays and the gin will need further research into its origins to see if I can do a kit bash or if I'll have to resort to scratchbuilding it.

 

Regards,

 

Aaron

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  • 4 years later...

It's been a while since I last contributed here, so I guess this calls an update!

 

The project was never forgotten about over the last couple of years. A mix of work, developing my NSWGR modelling and other normal "life stuff" meant the loco was pushed to the side and seldom worked on. I have working to have all 8 preserved Castles in model form (6 of which are more or less done and ready to go) meaning it was the right time to get stuck into Pendennis once again. My first attempt at the loco used Tintagel Castle as the base model meaning the valve cover for the inside cylinders was of the incorrect type meaning Caerphilly Castle made a worthy sacrifice to ensure accuracy in this regard. The decals and etched plates are the ones purchased from Fox Transfers all those years ago, although the nameplates are better mounted thanks to the original Hornby brass plate being cut down to let the etched plate sit flush. 

 

The buffers on both the loco & tender were painted black and the bufferbeams were detailed as necessary. 

 

IMG-4137.jpg.f7065bac038f8ec0c6c06359d5c942a7.jpg

 

IMG-4589.jpg.f3883e1a76fd760b2cb87b317d0d1608.jpg

 

Something I only learnt recently was that tender at some point carried a sealed twin-beam headlight mounted to the top lamp iron so  naturally this made its way onto my model. 

 

IMG-4582.PNG.3687ef45e5a5ba556c61b4c427e28cde.PNG

 

IMG-4585.JPG.88f937411780d1f83ba0b6dd387cbf74.JPG

 

 

All in all the project is now at a stage where I'm happy to call it finished, however I still would like the Hammersley Iron decals to go on the loco as without that company the loco would never have made its way to Australia.

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