Help needed in signalling a new layout

[Smileyjon]

I am totally lost with the principles of model railway signalling so I'm asking for help and guidance . . . please !

 

It's a west country theme, set in the 1950's and the plan is a little diagrammatic. 

 

I'd like a few simple signals and would like to be able to make them move . . . advice on makes / kits etc would be most welcome, together with the addition of any ground signals

 

I thank you in anticipation.

 

Jon

[Stephen Freeman]

No doubt the experts will be along shortly but they will need to know:

 

For prototype advce - is it SR or WR ?

 

For advice on kits etc - Scale of Model? but in general terms it's mainly either Ratio (Plastic) or Wizard (Model Signal Engineering - Metal)

[RailWest]

As already asked, is it ex-SR or ex-GWR - or even something else?

 

You say 1950s, but when does your 'imaginary history' suggest that the line was actually built? That will influence the original signalling (if any) and hence any subsequent changes which you might expect to see by the 1950s.

 

Is the 'bay' at the station intended as a passenger line?

[Smileyjon]

Thanks for the heads up on the details Guys.

 

It's eastern borders of Great Western . . .  so primarily GWR and the layout is as it was in around 1957-1959 so (being a greenhorn) I assume it was an old GWR line and station of unknown construction date.

 

Not very helpful I'm afraid.

 

I see Ratio produce single signals or a pack of GWR ones (466) for about £11 . . . thoughts please.

 

Thanks again

 

Jon

[imt]

I don't know your level of knowledge and experience in railway modelling - so I hope this isn't too basic.

 

Please may I make some suggestions on your layout plan?  To signal it in a prototypical way you need to think about making it look like the prototype.  Your plan looks nice - will give play value but may have a few problems in execution:

 

1) is the station intended to be on top of the tunnels?  If so have you thought how you are going to put in the climb up from the main loop?  Since the plan is dimensionless I cannot tell how much space you have for it.  If you're not putting one on top of the other how are you going to build a station between two mounds?

 

2) the idea of a reversing loop to get trains back to the station is good.  How about the size of the curve?  It needs to be at least 2nd radius if you are using Setrack (Hornby/Peco).  The geometry could be a problem with the space you have.  Why not use a design package like Scarm or Anyrail to see what fits?

 

3) you really should not have a point just outside a tunnel like in the middle of your layout, how are you to shunt the siding - the loco is in the tunnel!  Maybe think of running that line from the yard upwards across the return loop?

 

4) your sidings in the middle are a good idea, and you have a run-round to allow the engine to pull out the train for shunting.  But - in order to shunt you will have to go onto the main line and block it.

 

How big do you want your trains to be?  3 coaches, 4? For 3 coaches and a loco you need at least 3'6" of platform length.  Your crossover between the platforms is prototypical but will only work if the platforms are long enough for the engine to run round the stock in use.

 

PLEASE don't think that I am just being negative for the sake of it.  There is nothing worse than having a scheme that works in your head and finding it is impractical. 

 

If this is under 8 feet by 5 feet I don't think it will work in reality, and boards that big are very difficult to put up and take down.

 

You may find it helpful to look at example plans in books to get a better idea of what is achievable in the space you have available.

Edited July 29, 2017 by imt

[Smileyjon]

Thank you for replying to my plea for help.  So:

 

The layout is around 17 feet long and around 4.5 feet deep, and yes the station does sit above the tunnels (this was done to reduce baseboard depth as the station area is 1.5 feet wide and 8 feet long and the board it sits on is over 9 feet long and the non scenic bit of 7 feet long

Not sure of the set track radii but the minimum here is around 2.25 feet and the grades are better than 1 in 65 and the platforms are close to 6 feet in length

There should be photos on the earlier pages.

All your comments are on board and I will look closely at these suggestions

Thank you

Jon

[Smileyjon]

The most recent photo's are on another forum page but wondered if it would help if I posted them here:

 

 

[28XX]

Ratio kit 466 has been in production for over 40 years. It is a little bit old school but can still be the basis for good models with a bit of care. The signal arms themselves are perhaps the worst bit as the large glazed areas in the spectacle frames are just represented by opaque plastic. Better substitute with etched brass arms.

[imt]

The most recent photo's are on another forum page but wondered if it would help if I posted them here:

 

Thank you.  I of course recognise the layout now.  I'm sorry I bothered you - but the sketch seemed full of potential disasters and I just hate it when people fall flat on their faces having spent a pile of money.  The radii are not a problem since you have laid everything out in reality - since the board is only 4' wide they must be well under 2' radius so I hope you have checked your stock goes round it?.  However there does seem to be a problem where the return loop meets the main - or is that just my eyesight?   I haven't looked back - I presume you did check out the gradient as well?

[Chimer]

I'm no expert, but suspect it will be impossible to signal the lower level satisfactorily because what you've got there is two parallel bi-directional lines which look like a normal double track main line (with a facing crossover).  So if you signal what you've actually got, it will just look wrong, and if you signal it the way a double track line would be signalled, trains will be running the wrong way past signals etc ......

 

I guess you could signal the branch correctly from the terminus to a junction signal controlling the point which determines whether a departing train is going to go clockwise or anti-clockwise round the reversing loop, but it will probably only look right from the point where the branch clearly diverges from the continuous circuit, presumably where it starts to climb.

 

Don't know how much if anything is changeable now, but if the two tracks leaving the tunnel at the far end (the one tunnelled through white expanded polystyrene in one of the photos) diverged immediately after the crossovers, which looks possible in that photo if the continuous run followed the baseboard edge, you would have a much better chance of making things look right (and getting the real signalling experts to contribute).

 

Sorry that's a bit of a stream-of-consciousness ramble, but hope it helps - I think you've used the available space brilliantly and have got great operational potential.

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[Smileyjon]

Fully understand Chris.  Thank you.

Yes the terminus is the only 'slightly real' section whereas the remainder is more for messing with trains and watching them run and stuff  . . . . 

 

So minimum or no signals here but what of the station area ?

Do I place ground stop signals where the goods shed line joins the branch line and to I have stop signals at the ends of each of the 3 platforms and if so are they double sided.
Showing my really limited knowledge here.

 

Thanks again 

 

Jon

[Chimer]

Now that's where you need the proper experts.  Starter for each platform and something (3 arm bracket signal or some clever variant) to approve arrival and indicate which platform is my limit.  Anything to do with ground signals would be a complete guess.

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[Nick Holliday]

I'm no expert, but suspect it will be impossible to signal the lower level satisfactorily because what you've got there is two parallel bi-directional lines which look like a normal double track main line (with a facing crossover).  So if you signal what you've actually got, it will just look wrong, and if you signal it the way a double track line would be signalled, trains will be running the wrong way past signals etc....

 

Cheers

 

Chris

There are a number of places in the UK where two single line branches have run parallel from the junction to the point of divergence. The section between Ryde to Smallbrook on the IOW in particular comes to mind, and the northern junction of the Meon Valley line was another.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm no expert, but suspect it will be impossible to signal the lower level satisfactorily because what you've got there is two parallel bi-directional lines which look like a normal double track main line (with a facing crossover).  So if you signal what you've actually got, it will just look wrong, and if you signal it the way a double track line would be signalled, trains will be running the wrong way past signals etc ......

 

I guess you could signal the branch correctly from the terminus to a junction signal controlling the point which determines whether a departing train is going to go clockwise or anti-clockwise round the reversing loop, but it will probably only look right from the point where the branch clearly diverges from the continuous circuit, presumably where it starts to climb.

 

Don't know how much if anything is changeable now, but if the two tracks leaving the tunnel at the far end (the one tunnelled through white expanded polystyrene in one of the photos) diverged immediately after the crossovers, which looks possible in that photo if the continuous run followed the baseboard edge, you would have a much better chance of making things look right (and getting the real signalling experts to contribute).

 

Sorry that's a bit of a stream-of-consciousness ramble, but hope it helps - I think you've used the available space brilliantly and have got great operational potential.

 

Cheers

 

Chris

 

 

I tend very much to agree with the spirit of the above comment - although probably far too awkward to change the layout now and certainly no room for moving various crossovers judging by the photos.  However while you could readily signal the lower level as two parallel single lines you are going to finish up with a forest of signals which are likely to be damaged as you reach over to the 'real' branch terminus on the higher level.

 

So I think this is probably the best approach -

Fully understand Chris.  Thank you.

Yes the terminus is the only 'slightly real' section whereas the remainder is more for messing with trains and watching them run and stuff  . . . . 

 

So minimum or no signals here but what of the station area ?

Do I place ground stop signals where the goods shed line joins the branch line and to I have stop signals at the ends of each of the 3 platforms and if so are they double sided.

Showing my really limited knowledge here.

 

Thanks again 

 

Jon

 

Which leaves us with a fairly straightforward 'branch terminus' style of layout albeit lacking a couple of trap points on what appear to be freight sidings (although one of them might also serve as a bay platform perhaps?).   So you need a Home Signal on the approach to your station - most likely with a typically GWR 'cash register' route indicator and only a single stop arm although possibly a splitting signal with three dolls and an arm on each (one for each of the three lines it gives access to) would be used - the choice is yours.

 

You will need a ground disc signal reading out of the siding you have labelled 'goods' and each platform will need a Starting Signal with the one on the platform which connects to the 'goods' siding either having a bracketed arm to read to that siding or a co-located ground disc for that purpose.

 

And that - quite literally - is all you will need to signal to the sort of era and location you describe.  What I have called Home and Starting Signals area ctually stop signals - the term Home and starting relate to a particular function.  Havea read of this thread for more information -

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/48504-gwr-signals-and-where-they-go/page-1

[Dave John]

Kelvinbridge ( Caledonian Railway ) on the Glasgow low level lines had 6 mineral sidings and a goods shed, but no headshunt. The diverging point from the to the yard was only about 10 yards from the tunnel mouth, trains had to use a main line tunnel as a headshunt. There wasn't even room for a separate trap, so a twin trap was built into the goods shed point. 

 

In this picture the photographer is on Eldon street bridge, with the tunnel mouth immediately behind him; 

 

 

So , might be an interesting model control challenge, using a main line in a tunnel as a head shunt. 

 

And of course, to control it all, tunnel signals. 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/2091/entry-19153-a-tunnel-signal/

 

I'm sure the GWR modellers on here could point to something similar down there. 

 

 

[RailWest]

I tend very much to agree with the spirit of the above comment - although probably far too awkward to change the layout now and certainly no room for moving various crossovers judging by the photos.  However while you could readily signal the lower level as two parallel single lines you are going to finish up with a forest of signals which are likely to be damaged as you reach over to the 'real' branch terminus on the higher level.

 

So I think this is probably the best approach -

 

Which leaves us with a fairly straightforward 'branch terminus' style of layout albeit lacking a couple of trap points on what appear to be freight sidings (although one of them might also serve as a bay platform perhaps?).   So you need a Home Signal on the approach to your station - most likely with a typically GWR 'cash register' route indicator and only a single stop arm although possibly a splitting signal with three dolls and an arm on each (one for each of the three lines it gives access to) would be used - the choice is yours.

 

You will need a ground disc signal reading out of the siding you have labelled 'goods' and each platform will need a Starting Signal with the one on the platform which connects to the 'goods' siding either having a bracketed arm to read to that siding or a co-located ground disc for that purpose.

 

And that - quite literally - is all you will need to signal to the sort of era and location you describe.  What I have called Home and Starting Signals area ctually stop signals - the term Home and starting relate to a particular function.  Havea read of this thread for more information -

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/48504-gwr-signals-and-where-they-go/page-1

What about discs for the release crossover? Possibly even a 'yellow' one ??? :-)

[The Stationmaster]

What about discs for the release crossover? Possibly even a 'yellow' one ??? :-)

 

Definitely not a yellow one!!.   Could be a disc on one end (the end which is trailing for an arriving train, they were rarer on the facing end, especially in platforms) but equally it could be ground frame operated with no ground discs at all.