Dear Hattons; time for something new in 1:148 scale

[grahame]

N gauge is a large and growing market segment of model railway. So how about commissioning an all new N gauge scale model?

 

I'd like to see a slam door BR(S) EMU but would be happy to see a wagon as a start.

 

G

[woodenhead]

Not another Dear Hattons thread!!

 

This is just wishnlisting under a different name

[cctransuk]

Not another Dear Hattons thread!!

 

This is just wishnlisting under a different name

 

Agreed - all I seem to find on RMweb at the moment is 'why can't I / we have ..............', and frothing about far-fetched analysis of intentionally vague hints by manufacturers.

 

If a fraction of the time spent on anticipating unlikely RTR products was spent on learning modelling skills, the frothers and puzzle-solvers could have their preferred subjects a lot sooner.

 

Let's face it - getting into some of the complex RTR packaging is nearly as hard as scratch-building!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[grahame]

This is just wishnlisting under a different name

 

You're right. But it's what people seem to like.

 

Agreed - all I seem to find on RMweb at the moment is 'why can't I / we have ..............', and frothing about far-fetched analysis of intentionally vague hints by manufacturers.

 

 

Maybe, but I suppose you could always take your own advice as recently posted: "If you are cynical about the thread and the motives for it being created - ignore it."

 

​G

[woodenhead]

Anyway Grahame in your position within the N gauge society surely you have access to commissioning models, if they are in demand enough for Hattons then surely they are good enough for the N gauge society to offer as their own model.

[cctransuk]

You're right. But it's what people seem to like.

 

 

Maybe, but I suppose you could always take your own advice as recently posted: "If you are cynical about the thread and the motives for it being created - ignore it."

 

​G

 

I can and will - but we have an annual wishlist poll; that should be enough for wishlisters to state their preference.

 

The danger is that, with all this hypothetical 'noise', the manufacturers will get fed up with RMweb as a source of quantitative information.

 

It only bothers me insofar as I have to wade through all these pointless threads - even to find out that they are of little or no interest to me; if I want a subject that is not produced RTR, I make it myself.

 

What we need is two sub-fora / forums within RMweb - Box-openers and Modellers !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Les1952]

I would put it this way

 

" Dear Hattons

 

When deciding what to do as your next commission why not look at the gaps in the N-gauge market, and see if there is something there that takes your fancy"

 

Rather than making a wishlist, it becomes an exhortation to think about scales other than OO.....

 

Just a thought

Les

[rob D2]

It's not a big market - it was supposedly 10% the last time I saw statistics from a survey.

 

Model rail stated they wouldn't do any more ltd Ed in N , as it doesn't sell .

 

Flogging a recently deceased Nag I think

[Revolution Mike]

It's not a big market - it was supposedly 10% the last time I saw statistics from a survey.

 

Model rail stated they wouldn't do any more ltd Ed in N , as it doesn't sell .

 

Or MR picked the wrong Ltd Edition to do...just copying what sells in OO is not the solution.

 

Bachmann have regularly quoted 20%.

 

Rather than making a wishlist, it becomes an exhortation to think about scales other than OO.....

 

I think this is the main thrust of Grahame's post - Hattons have done OO and now O.  It would be good to see some thought put into N.

 

Anyway Grahame in your position within the N gauge society surely you have access to commissioning models, if they are in demand enough for Hattons then surely they are good enough for the N gauge society to offer as their own model.

 

Hattons have a reach that is not necessarily the same as the NGS. The NGS has limited capacity to commission which is not the same as models not being worth commissioning.

 

If a fraction of the time spent on anticipating unlikely RTR products was spent on learning modelling skills, the frothers and puzzle-solvers could have their preferred subjects a lot sooner.

 

Something (modelling, scratch building etc) which Grahame has demonstrated on here time and again...just because one models doesn't mean that we wouldn't like to see something RTR.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Flying Pig]

 

I'd like to see a slam door BR(S) EMU but would be happy to see a wagon as a start.

 

G

So that's a warwell in N, then

[Hilux5972]

Perfect item for 1:148 in my opinion would be a magnifying glass.

[Stevelewis]

N gauge is a large and growing market segment of model railway. So how about commissioning an all new N gauge scale model?

 

I'd like to see a slam door BR(S) EMU but would be happy to see a wagon as a start.

 

G

 

N  Gauge  is  not  really  a  large  segment  of  the UK Model Railway  market,  A  pointer  for  my  statement  is  Hattons  themselves,  if  you  receive  Hattons  regular    Seasonal  Best  sellers  Brochure,  which  they  distribute  to   online  order   customers  and occasionally in  magazines,  It  would be  noted  that   the  average  number  of  pages  is  30-32,  and  for  example  the  current  edition  has  but 3 pages   devoted  to  N  Gauge,  3  pages  devoted  to 'other  scales   such as  009, 0  and control  equipment etc and  the  remaining 25 pages feature 00 gauge.

 

I would  add  that  as  an  N  gauge Modeller  since  the  late  60s  I would  like  to  see  the  sector  grow, but  I believe  that  a  major  concept  that  potential newcomers to the sector  have is  that  it  is   simply  too fiddly  and  expensive. 

 

If  they  were  to  do  a  couple  of  years modelling  Z  Gauge  they  would not  dismiss N so easily

 

personally  I  would  like  a few  more  SR  EMUs in  N

 

Having  said    all this  the  Garden  Railway  calls  me!!

Edited August 23, 2017 by Stevelewis

[woodenhead]

There was a potential for N when Dapol entered the market, it shook it up, improved the finesse of the bodies and it really looked like it was N gauge's moment.

 

The internet then intervened with reports of ongoing split gear issues on the new Chinese Farish plus the circuit board QC on Dapol and this I think has scared people off despite the Tubby Duffs, mazak rot and all manner of problems with 4mm models that means N gauge is probably no worse or better than 00 when it comes to quality.

 

What did it for me was attending an N gauge society AGM, looking at the age of the attendees, listening to Bachmann describe the market and realising that OO gauge limited editions from Kernow et al meant those models were highly unlikely to ever be seen RTR in N.

 

But despite all that you look at the N gauge Castle with sound and you know there must be a future for the scale.

 

I still haven't sold my N gauge stuff, I just can't bring myself to do it.

[Revolution Mike]

N  Gauge  is  not  really  a  large  segment  of  the UK Model Railway  market,  A  pointer  for  my  statement  is  Hattons  themselves,  if  you  receive  Hattons  regular    Seasonal  Best  sellers  Brochure,  which  they  distribute  to   online  order   customers  and occasionally in  magazines,  It  would be  noted  that   the  average  number  of  pages  is  30-32,  and  for  example  the  current  edition  has  but 3 pages   devoted  to  N  Gauge,  3  pages  devoted  to 'other  scales   such as  009, 0  and control  equipment etc and  the  remaining 25 pages feature 00 gauge.

 

I think all the Hattons brochures demonstrate is Hattons interests (in terms of what they produce or what they sell).  They don't have so much N gauge to offer so they don't advertise it as much as other shops.  It is a bit like saying that because BHE only supply N gauge then the market is largely or completely N gauge - I know, I know it is a hyperbolic example but you get the point!

 

What did it for me was attending an N gauge society AGM, looking at the age of the attendees, listening to Bachmann describe the market and realising that OO gauge limited editions from Kernow et al meant those models were highly unlikely to ever be seen RTR in N.

 

I find it really sad that this influenced you. There are still models being produced in N that are nowhere near forthcoming in OO (319, 321 for starters and I'm sure there are others). 

 

Cheers, Mike

[grahame]

  I believe  that  a  major  concept  that  potential newcomers to the sector  have is  that  it  is   simply  too fiddly  and  expensive. 

 

 

That may be an impression some people have but it really is a myth and needs busting.

 

On a like for like, loco for loco basis, OO is actually more expensive than N and if you factor in O gauge then the comparison becomes . . . well

 

Also the 'fiddly' excuse doesn't really hold up when looked at. The smallest parts in a NGauge kit are no smaller than those in an OO or O gauge kit - it's just that in those larger scales there's a lot more of those small parts. And in the RTR market most things come complete (locos, buildings, stock, etc) so no fiddly bits.

 

What people tend to dwell on are negative connotations ( even though they don't hold water) and rarely do we see the positives accentuated, which is a shame.

 

G

[grahame]

What did it for me was attending an N gauge society AGM, looking at the age of the attendees, listening to Bachmann describe the market and realising that OO gauge limited editions from Kernow et al meant those models were highly unlikely to ever be seen RTR in N

I'm not sure I understand the connection between the ages of NGS members at their AGM and the assertion that limited editions in OO will never get produced.

 

Aren't OO enthusiasts generally of a similar age (that's my impression and the aging of all model railway enthusiasts is a common concern regardless of the scale they choose) and wouldn't the propensity for both N and OO enthusiasts to purchase new models be the same? I'd have thought the comparative size of the markets was more of a reason. But then as Mike says N offers a different choice of products and a different set of benefits.

 

G

[rob D2]

My dad was a massive N gauge fan, and that was what I was weaned on.

I enjoyed fitting a small layout in a small area with some scenery to boot.

 

However I reentered the hobby with OO, I dabbled with N again in 2000 and 2007 but I've come to the conclusion that the availability is not as great as OO and I want very specific things that I may be able to alter in OO but would be too fiddly for me in N.

 

For instance I have a Hornby 31 patiently waiting to become a 31/4 from a /1. I'm quite happy to paint a white stripe on it and add some ETH detailing bits in OO because they are just big enough for me to do it, I certainly couldn't in N.

[woodenhead]

I'm not sure I understand the connection between the ages of NGS members at their AGM and the assertion that limited editions in OO will never get produced.

Aren't OO enthusiasts generally of a similar age (that's my impression and the aging of all model railway enthusiasts is a common concern regardless of the scale they choose) and wouldn't the propensity for both N and OO enthusiasts to purchase new models be the same? I'd have thought the comparative size of the markets was more of a reason. But then as Mike says N offers a different choice of products and a different set of benefits.

G

The AGM I went to a couple of years back shocked me is all I am saying, it wasn't what I was expecting.

[Tricky-CRS]

The size of N Gauge market is putting Hattons off, rubbish O gauge is smaller market share yet they are doing wagons in that scale. When I asked in the OO & O gauge Warwell thread about doing N Gauge as well I never even got the courtesy of a reply. Hattons are happy taking money off n gauge modelers but don't want to make any effort for it. This probably because the profit margins is smaller than in OO & O gauge (guessing).

[woodenhead]

 

I find it really sad that this influenced you. There are still models being produced in N that are nowhere near forthcoming in OO (319, 321 for starters and I'm sure there are others). 

 

Cheers, Mike

It saddened me too having been in N many years Poole Farish and post 2000.

 

Actually I think you've had an impact there, RevolutioN have done the same as Dapol in the early days and forced a refocus and game upping with the 319 being an example of bringing something to market that will sell because the Pendolino is coming.

 

Even the Castle I think is aimed at the modern image modeller who is more likely to have sound fitted locos and will want a heritage special running.

 

I might be in 00 again now and the head says sell sell sell on the N gauge but the heart has only let me offload older mk1 coaches and my Dapol Gresleys that had no place on my layouts other than I enjoyed watching them going around.

[rob D2]

The size of N Gauge market is putting Hattons off, rubbish O gauge is smaller market share yet they are doing wagons in that scale. When I asked in the OO & O gauge Warwell thread about doing N Gauge as well I never even got the courtesy of a reply. Hattons are happy taking money off n gauge modelers but don't want to make any effort for it. This probably because the profit margins is smaller than in OO & O gauge (guessing).

 

Well that's rather cynical.

I have no idea what the share is that O gauge has, but it appears to be up and coming at present as Heljan have potentially reinvigorated the market with their RTR diesels.

 

Is N gauge getting more share or has it stagnated ?

[grahame]

Well that's rather cynical.

I have no idea what the share is that O gauge has, but it appears to be up and coming at present as Heljan have potentially reinvigorated the market with their RTR diesels.

 

Is N gauge getting more share or has it stagnated ?

 

The O gauge share of the market is tiny (usually estimated to be in the low single figures percentage), even compared with N. But, yep, it is considered to be growing and probably at the expense of all the other scales and in particular OO. A lot of that is to do with Dapol now pandering to the scale (it's effectively run by O gauge enthusiasts) with new good value models, although still much dearer than N (and OO). So, in turnover terms and most likely profitability it is a rising star.

 

It does seem that the N gauge market has slowed, but then that is probably a lot to do with the support and supply of new product it now gets - Dapol effectively withdrawing and Farish cutting back on releases (although of all scales).

 

However, overall the model railway market is rather depressed (for a number of reasons - cost increases, current state of the economy, aging customer base, etc.,) and not exactly an area where one would want to invest.

 

G. 

[Tricky-CRS]

Well that's rather cynical.

I have no idea what the share is that O gauge has, but it appears to be up and coming at present as Heljan have potentially reinvigorated the market with their RTR diesels.

 

Is N gauge getting more share or has it stagnated ?

To call me cynical when you have no idea of the market is rich but I was being a little sarcastic.

 

Hattons are chasing the higher profit margin scales, fact a O and OO wagon will cost simular to design and tool as the n gauge. Production costs will differ but not by as much as you think but the perceived value and hence the retail price will. This leads to greatest profit in O gauge which until now has had little cost effective supply. As an n gauge if I was at Dapol I would chase O money but not forgot who got them to where they are, n gauges.

[dibber25]

Or MR picked the wrong Ltd Edition to do...just copying what sells in OO is not the solution.

 

Bachmann have regularly quoted 20%.

 

We're going back a bit to MR's limited edition. If you don't copy what sells well in 'OO', then you are taking an even bigger leap in the dark trying to guess what might sell in 'N'. We took a lot of advice before trying an 'N' gauge limited edition. The overwhelming theme of that advice from people who had tried, was "Don't do anything in 'N' gauge." We were advised at the time that the market was 10% of 'OO' which meant that a limited edition which sold 500 in 'OO' would sell 50 in 'N'. That proved to be about right but you can't do limited runs of 50. The model railway market as a whole is pretty flat at present. If 'N' gauge has grown from 10% to 20% of 'OO', it's bucking the trend - but still not big enough. Overall, the market is shrinking and 'O' is the only real growth area because of older age group eyesight concerns, the availability of more disposable income among that age group, and the historical ability to always get a better margin on an 'O' gauge product. (CJL)

[grahame]

. If 'N' gauge has grown from 10% to 20% of 'OO', it's bucking the trend - but still not big enough. Overall, the market is shrinking and 'O' is the only real growth area because of older age group eyesight concerns, the availability of more disposable income among that age group, and the historical ability to always get a better margin on an 'O' gauge product. (CJL)

 

I'm not so sure anyone has said, or suggested, "20% of OO", but once getting on for around 20% of the overall British model railway market. At one time, many years back, the banded about figures (although I'm not sure where they came from) were 80% OO, 15% N and 5% others. Since then there has been a lot of change - N probably up for a while and now falling along with OO as O grows. OO still has the lions share but target just that sector means you are not taking advantage of all the market and limiting potential.

 

To leverage the maximum and grow the overall market you need products in all sectors. It's folly to ditch or ignore sectors in a shrinking market. If there is less product in N I simply spend less - I don't switch my spend to other scales which means that the overall market suffers.

 

G.