Dear Hattons; time for something new in 1:148 scale

[grahame]

  

Companies all the time discard either product ranges, or even entire divisions of the company, because while profitable they don't generate the profit levels wanted.  Have to make the numbers look good to please the stock markets.

 

And of course one of the most successful companies in the world, Apple, totally ignore the lower segments of the market.  Would you accuse them of not having a good business strategy?

 

 

Companies do discontinue products but usually when their life has run either because they are no longer economic to make, the market is no longer there or they have been superseded. Yes, it is difficult to apply generalities to business, that why it is a fallacy to claim that all companies ditch product ranges to simply concentrate on the one product that provides the highest profit margin. If it were true all the model railway companies would only be making O gauge trains (or perhaps something else that provides a higher margin). And if they were really profit driven they probably wouldn't be in the model railway business. 

 

Apple have a range of products that all generally follow a claimed best inovative design principle for new technologies. However, it is interesting to note that it is just two of their products (iPhone and iPad) that provides by far the highest profit margins (and also the largest share of revenue) yet they still continue with their other lower profit products like Mac, iTunes, iPod, software and apple watches. They do discontinue product fairly regularly but usually to replace it with a new improved version to encourage trading up.

 

I don't understand how even the most hardened N gauge modeller can say the parts are as fiddly in OO.

 

 

Fiddly is usually considered the size (and complexity and number) of the parts you need to handle in model making. If you look in a box of a kit of a loco in N gauge there will be less parts than in a kit of the same loco in OO/4mm and there will be even more in an O/7mm one. Yet the smallest size of the parts for all those three kits will be very similar which is why people claim that N is no more fiddly than other scales.

 

G 

Edited August 27, 2017 by grahame

[dpgibbons]

Presumably Dapol's plan for O Gauge is to cater primarily for the micro layout market, where there is enough volume to justify mass production techniques and prices, and to reposition Lionheart as a rival to Helijan for pricier O Gauge stuff.

[Phil Parker]

Presumably Dapol's plan for O Gauge is to cater primarily for the micro layout market, where there is enough volume to justify mass production techniques and prices, and to reposition Lionheart as a rival to Helijan for pricier O Gauge stuff.

I doubt that would help much, there aren't that many layout builders. 

 

Far more likely they are catering for the market that likes a nice looking loco for display. O gauge is far better for that - and all those lovely livery Terriers do look nice. There is also the UK modeller buying by weight and volume. A bigger model seems like better value for money on that basis.

[Roy L S]

This has developed into an interesting and thought provoking topic.

 

Firstly as regards market share for N, I had a very interesting conversation in my local model shop yesterday. Feeling there is that N is definitely growing, and based on ratio of sales reckons 1 in 5 is for an N product which seems to mirror Bachmann's research. N is seen as a scale well suited to smaller houses and the quality of recent models means that N is no longer  regarded as the "poor relation" in terms of detail or innovation. We are now seeing super smooth coreless motors becoming the norm and sound becoming fitted in RTR models of very good quality, all this alongside a level of detail and fidelity to prototype that makes it hard to differentiate them from their larger cousins. 

 

There is clearly demand for limited production models in N otherwise we would not be seeing the success in crowd funded models that the likes of RevolutioN have and will (based on positive reception of recent projects) continue to achieve. However this is a different type of business model where the majority of risk and then benefit is felt by the consumer and subscription is up front so sales are assured.

 

If we look at NGS projects it is a similar case where the risk is carried by the Society and ultimately it's members. A project can be researched internally by members and deposits invited at a special discounted initial price. There will be a clear picture of demand for a given product and therefore viability within the 5000 plus membership. The difference is that the NGS does not expect to sell the whole production run, they expect to hold some stock to sell via the NGS on an ongoing basis. The cost model is (I suspect) very similar to crowdfunding where there is no expectation of significant profit margins except as regards those of the manufacturer and any designers used by them.

 

Finally let's look at this in the context of the likes of Hattons. My understanding is that they now have a team in house who undertake much of the research for their projects, so this cost (depending on workload) is fixed regardless of what scale is being worked on. However very clearly there will be a margin to build in at a number of places in the supply chain, including manufacturer and Hattons (in this example). The expectation has to be an acceptable return on investment but before even that, recovery of costs. The best way of achieving that it appears to me is by way of a high margin low sales volume product ( 0 Gauge) or a lower margin but significantly higher sales volume market like 00. 

 

For N Gauge there appears to therefore be (at this point anyway) some dependency on choosing the "right" products with sufficient sales potential to compensate for the lower market size compared to 00 and lower margin when compared to 0. 

 

Choosing the "right" product may be seen as a challenge for those whose focus has been on other scales meaning it then becomes something they would be reluctant to do against tha tried and tested markets they are already in.

 

So, who would recommend the "right" product to them? Not my era, but it crosses my mind that working in conjunction with Dapol to resurrect the Class 50 and bring it to Market as a Hattons product could be a good choice given it's 50 year lifespan and the number in preservation.

 

Roy

Edited August 27, 2017 by Roy L S

[Revolution Mike]

But the design work is largely paid for, and a customer can have can reasonable idea of what to expect. It'd be almost like the old Lima catalogues where they put scaled up N gauge couplings on OO models in an attempt to prove they had an engineered prototype.

Design costs are relatively small compared to tooling and production. Nor is a lot of design directly transferable (research is but that is a small portion as well).

 

The real issue is what will sell at a price the customer will pay and whether that gives a sufficient margin for the producer.

[Chris M]

I really don't expect Hattons to get invold in tooling up anything for N; it would be a high risk project with hard to predict returns.

 

If the DJM king is a success I would predict more crowdfunding. I do expect crowdfunding to become much more important to N gauge and maybe becoming almost the normal way to do things. It might be bit like new build steam locos in that there will be an ever increasing number of projects in the melting pot at any one time. Some will make it and some won't.

 

You have to ask how many gaps there are in the N gauge line that would sell in sufficiently large quantities. Most main stream GWR locos are now covered with relatively modern tooling. Once the king has landed I would suggest trying crowd funding the GW Mogul. The Union Mills 2251 will fill another gap but will of course be lacking in the level of detail we expect. Most of the major LMS types are also already covered. There are quite a few gaps in the BR standard steam locos but there may not be sufficient potential sales to make the gaps viable. I would expect rebuilt Merchant Navy and West Countrys would be successful but maybe not earlier Southern locos. Dapol will know based on sales of their schools. The only sizeable gap in diesels I can think of is the class 50. I'm assuming that Farish will update their 45 at some time, So, the question is - what locos which have not recently been produced would sell in sufficient quantities to provide a reasonable return on investment. Revolution's experience may well suggest modern prototypes are most likely to be successful.

[Thebigshot]

Hi Guys

 

In my opinion another retailer entering the N gauge market is likely to do more harm than good as I believe the N gauge society and Revalouton and DJM would be a better way forward as the more competition the smaller the market is likely to be although that just my opinion

 

Thanks

Alan

[Thebigshot]

Hi Guy

 

Something stupid keeps jumping into my mined and it's why hasn't the N gauge society produced more ready to run stuff than it already has.

 

Thanks

Alan

 

P.s I bet cash flow is mentioned in replys.

[Steven B]

Lack of volunteer time to manage the project and a limited number of models that have a long enough life span to appeal to a wide range of members?

 

Steven B

[Tricky-CRS]

See the interview here post 5 ( 7 miniutes in) http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126141-andrew-barclay-14-16-0-4-0st-in-oo-gauge/&do=findComment&comment=2850167

 

Not looked at N gauge, never answers questions, not interested at all, not enough money in it while claiming to care about the hobby (well only the very profitable bits).

[Thebigshot]

See the interview here post 5 ( 7 miniutes in) http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126141-andrew-barclay-14-16-0-4-0st-in-oo-gauge/&do=findComment&comment=2850167

 

Not looked at N gauge, never answers questions, not interested at all, not enough money in it while claiming to care about the hobby (well only the very profitable bits).

Hi

 

TBH I would be very concerned that another manufacturer in the N gauge market maybe deadly I hope I'm wrong but I really do see the N gauge market taking the bull buy the horns so to speak and going down the Revolution route and doing models by crowd funding or via the N gauge society but that's just my opinion

 

Thanks

Alan

Edited September 11, 2017 by Thebigshot

[Legend]

See the interview here post 5 ( 7 miniutes in) http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126141-andrew-barclay-14-16-0-4-0st-in-oo-gauge/&do=findComment&comment=2850167

 

Not looked at N gauge, never answers questions, not interested at all, not enough money in it while claiming to care about the hobby (well only the very profitable bits).

I saw that in interview . I think all he said was not currently looking at n gauge. Hattons obviously have a better view of the market than we have and know where there are gaps and opportunities. Obviously they just don't see it in n at the moment.

[woodenhead]

See the interview here post 5 ( 7 miniutes in) http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126141-andrew-barclay-14-16-0-4-0st-in-oo-gauge/&do=findComment&comment=2850167

 

Not looked at N gauge, never answers questions, not interested at all, not enough money in it while claiming to care about the hobby (well only the very profitable bits).

I think that is a bit harsh, that isn't how I heard it but I think it is clear that N gauge is not the growth market at the moment, the manufacturers have headed off to O, Hattons are following in some respects but should be welcomed as it widens the market and they aren't reliant on Heljan, Dapol or Bachmann production slot gaps.

 

4mm will always be the main commission area as it offers the largest market.

 

I am sure if N gauge had an obvious gap in the market then Hattons would look at it, as might Kernow.  

[Roy Langridge]

See the interview here post 5 ( 7 miniutes in) http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126141-andrew-barclay-14-16-0-4-0st-in-oo-gauge/&do=findComment&comment=2850167

 

Not looked at N gauge, never answers questions, not interested at all, not enough money in it while claiming to care about the hobby (well only the very profitable bits).

 

What a complete misrepresentation of what was said - I hope you have the decency to amend your post.

 

Hattons are a business first and foremost, not a charity. If they aren't going to cover costs on something, they are aren't likely to do it. Likewise, if they saw something making a decent return, I am sure they would go for it.

Roy

[Tricky-CRS]

What a complete misrepresentation of what was said - I hope you have the decency to amend your post.

 

Hattons are a business first and foremost, not a charity. If they aren't going to cover costs on something, they are aren't likely to do it. Likewise, if they saw something making a decent return, I am sure they would go for it.

Roy

 

Hi I am stating my opinion so no I won't alter it, I and others have asked on their threads about N gauge several times and had no reply. I would not expect them to make a loss or next to no profit, but to claim they care about the hobby and then not answer polite questions is rude. I for one will put my money where my mouth is and support Kernow MC who are supporting N gauge by producing limited editions occasionally.

[Hattons Dave]

Hi I am stating my opinion so no I won't alter it, I and others have asked on their threads about N gauge several times and had no reply. I would not expect them to make a loss or next to no profit, but to claim they care about the hobby and then not answer polite questions is rude. I for one will put my money where my mouth is and support Kernow MC who are supporting N gauge by producing limited editions occasionally.

 

Apologies that you feel your posts have been ignored. Whilst I do try to I'm unfortunately not always able to read all posts that are made even within our relatively small sub-forum.

 

Regarding the N gauge market, whilst we aren't currently planning any releases in this scale we are firmly committed to all of the major modelling scales, including N gauge. We do have a 'never say never' attitude to our commissions and all of our releases are backed by full research into what the hobby will support. If you have any suggestions as to what we should produce, in any scale, we're always happy to hear them. You can use our dedicated email address of ideas@hattons.co.uk to let us know.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

[Roy Langridge]

Hi I am stating my opinion so no I won't alter it, I and others have asked on their threads about N gauge several times and had no reply. I would not expect them to make a loss or next to no profit, but to claim they care about the hobby and then not answer polite questions is rude. I for one will put my money where my mouth is and support Kernow MC who are supporting N gauge by producing limited editions occasionally.

What you are saying is you "stating your opinion" appears in your post to be a summary of the interview. In the interview the only statement that is made specifically about N is "not at the moment". Perhaps in that light you may wish to reconsider?

 

Roy

Edited September 12, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[Roy Langridge]

Post deleted - finger trouble!

 

Roy

Edited September 12, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[Tricky-CRS]

What you are saying is you "stating your opinion" appears in your post to be a summary of the interview. In the interview the only statement that is made specifically about N is "not at the moment". Perhaps in that light you may wish to reconsider?

 

Roy

Roy give up, I have linked to the interview and then given my summary of the situation as I see it, not just the interview. Very fine line between not looked at N gauge (past tense) and not at the moment (current). Hattons have now come on here and replied for which I am very grateful, thank you Hattons Dave.

[Chris M]

I don't understand why Hattons are expected to bring out new N gauge products, they are after all only a very successful model shop who occasionally commission models. Anyone of us could give DJM Dave or Revolution circa £100k and ask them to design, tool and procure a new model on our behalf. I am sure we would be made welcome. There could even be a consortium of say 5 of us putting in £20k each.

Likewise anyone could commission a limited edition run of any current model from Farish, Dapol or Peco. All you would have to do is create the artwork and be prepared to pay for the minimum order quantity of coaches, wagons or whatever. With Peco there is no minimum order quantity but you have to pay the set up costs up front and the investment is much smaller. So does anyone want to support the N gauge section of our hobby by risking their cash? I love N gauge and want to see it develop but I must confess I am not prepared to risk my hard earned cash. I cannot therefore criticise Hattons or anyone else for not being prepared to take a risk with their cash. I salute those such as Bachmann, DJM, N gauge society and Union Mills who do invest their own money in providing us with new models. I also salute Revolution for succeeding in crowdfunding. I salute Dapol for what they have achieved to date and hope they will be able to invest in N at sometime in the future.

[Steven B]

Signal Box (as was) and Kernow have both seen money to be made from N Gauge limited editions, although in both cases they were re-liveries of existing models rather than something completely new.

 

Surely it's not too much to ask one of the country's biggest model shops to consider something in the second most popular scale? Something local to Liverpool would be nice:

Trans-Pennine class 47

Petroleum sector class 47

Mersey Rail class 142, class 150 of 73

86214 or 86235 in Liverpool-Manchester 150 branding

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven  B.

[woodenhead]

But if there isn't a profit to be made then no - the class 86 for example would have to come from Dapol whose 86s are tooled to modern versions, only C&M did the blue versions as a special edition and they took ages to clear despite all the blue/grey mark 3 stock available.

 

The class 142 has been so long in gestation it probably was a risk to also commission as a separate livery in case it never got past tooling.

 

If you look at the work RevolutioN is doing, it is quite specific and serves the southern end of the WCML post privatisation well - when they stepped beyond that for example with the class 29 they fell short of numbers despite you'd think a wealth of Scottish modellers with Dapol 26/27s and the forthcoming class 17 who should have wanted one or two.

[Chris M]

Osborn's Models do a cracking job for N gauge. They have a lot of special editions from major manufacturers and do a good range of laser cut building kits. We should all do our bit to support them.

[woodenhead]

And don't forget Gaugemaster who did commission some Dapol 73s in modern liveries and had the chassis upgraded to DCC ready - all gone now so obviously a good choice.

[Roy L S]

Whether we like it or not, what Hattons may or may not do is based on hard nosed business decisions and risk v's reward. They may be a long established retailer but that doesn't make it even remotely reasonable to expect them to take a "punt" on anything. The reason they have been going so long and are so successful is no doubt because they are a well managed, make good investment decisions  and manage risk within the business effectively, 

 

Personally I do think there may be some models that could fit an N "niche" already done in 00, one of which would be the Metrovick Co-Bo, made by Heljan, the LMS "Twins" would be another (actually done as a special in 00 for Hattons), then there's the "Hoover" which I have already mentioned, long time resident of the Farish range, proposed and then "parked" by Dapol at a time (50th anniversary) when interest could potentially be at it's strongest, especially with the marketing clout of a big retailer behind it. 

 

However, only when or if Hattons are ready, when they see an acceptable business opportunity will we be likely to see them dip a toe in N, and I suspect while there are opportunities in other scales to pursue that will be no time soon.

 

Roy