National Railway Museum transfers 2818 to STEAM

[Ed-farms]

Looks like the 2nd one to go has been announced, GWR 2-8-0 2818 is leaving the national collection now http://nrm.org.uk/aboutus/pressoffice/pressreleases/2017/august/2818-swindon

[Miss Prism]

From the Press Release:
 

2818’s original livery was black lined out in red but the current livery is the plain green introduced during the First World War

Huh?

 

 

 

 

[brack]

Hmm, at least this one might be kept under cover. Why is it to be given away rather than be loaned?

The BTC selected it to be preserved in 1953 - presumably on the grounds of it's significance as an edwardian heavy freight loco design. I'm not sure how this has changed or diminished in importance since?

I'm less upset about it than the T3 as it might at least be kept under cover and it is not as unique in preservation, but I still wonder why it wasn't loaned as per many of the other locos at STEAM - they have no plans to restore it, so don't need to pretend that it has to be given to them so they can invest in it (as per the T3 giveaway)?

 

Its as the NRM has been given a quota for locos to get rid of each year - I thought the entire point of a national collection was that we preserved things for posterity, not simply a holding pool until someone in an office somewhere decides that they need more space for the cafe and the place is all cluttered up with locos.

[Boris]

I think this is part of a plan to thin out the national collection so its full of unique survivors rather than duplicates, its been going on for years, Glorious for example.

[brack]

I think this is part of a plan to thin out the national collection so its full of unique survivors rather than duplicates, its been going on for years, Glorious for example.

they've got 3 Rockets and 2 Sans Pareils for starters then. They did have 2 T3s, are you suggesting someone couldn't tell the difference between the big NER 080 and the LSWR 440 versions?

[Chris M]

As Steam is owned by Swindon Council it could be argued that 2818 remains in public ownership. It will fit well into that museum. I am sure it will be cosmetically restored and kept nice and clean on display under cover. Better there left on some siding out of public view. And we can all get to see it at the annual Steam model railway exhibition.

[dibber25]

Since most of the content of STEAM is vested in the National Collection (hence the transfer of exhibits including KGV and the railcar to York and Evening Star from York to STEAM) I'm not sure in what respect this counts as a 'gifting'. Very surprised if Swindon Borough has actually taken on anything for which it has additional financial responsibility. A smokescreen to distract attention from 563? (CJL)

[Froxfield2012]

I wonder where STEAM will put it?  The space by the station exhibit is pretty full at the moment.  Perhaps something is leaving to make room?  Perhaps they are sending the Dean Goods off to be modified to match the model from the National Collection in miniature?

[Dava]

Uncontroversial compared to the T3, 2818 is in good condition, not unique, and going to a museum where it will be conserved under cover, little danger of anything happening there....

 

Dava

[Legend]

Uncontroversial compared to the T3, 2818 is in good condition, not unique, and going to a museum where it will be conserved under cover, little danger of anything happening there....

Dava

Maybe they've learned their lesson, although somehow I doubt it. Much less controversial than the T3 . The chief thing is keeping them undercover and safe . 2818 seems to have fulfilled this , T3 definitely not. Still waiting to see what happens to the person that didn't follow procedures

[bertiedog]

The laws governing national collections should be tightened up, once in the collection, then it has to be retained or loaned out with a contract to return. At each change from Clapham onwards there have been losses or sales of smaller items. or storage at inaccessible locations. Even losses from storage of items in WW2 from the Maritime collection have never been sorted out fully, woeful neglect, lack of space, and then break up of collections.

The problem is made worst by the attitude of some curators, one famous one, dismissing children as a nuisance they are forced to put up with, whilst selling space to commercial operations in a national museum.

There is no unlimited funding to sort it out, but efforts could be made to keep national collections at least at one site, and find more money direct as a charge to industry. Charges for entry make little or no difference, it should be millions from industry in a tax plan, but then the Treasury would call foul if funds were channelled.

[adb968008]

Queue comments about 2818's unique Eastleigh paint job needing protecting :-)

 

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/roysrailpage/frame/2818b.jpg

 

Doubt many will cry over this one, I wonder if this will replace the Manor in the Swindon shopping mall ?

[phil-b259]

and yet that awful chinese kf monstrosity remains. i really see no good reason for me to ever go back to the nrm if this is their current attitude.

 

That " Awful Chinese monstrosity" as you put it, is there for a very good reason. It is described as:-

 

Steam Locomotive, Chinese Government Railways, KF7 class 4-8-4 No 607, designed by Colonel Kenneth Cantlie, built by Vulcan Foundry, Newton-le-Willows, Lancashire in 1935, withdrawn in 1981

 

In other words, It was built in the UK for export and is there to represents the many thousands of steam locos the UK built for export up till the 1960s.

 

Do a bit of research - there is more to the history of the wider railway industry in the UK than simply showing off what was what was built for domestic use by Swindon, Crewe, etc.

 

Here a few links to get you going:-

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_Foundry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyer,_Peacock_and_Company

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_British_Locomotive_Company

Edited August 12, 2017 by phil-b259

[Freightliner Class 66]

editied because i cant be bothered

Edited August 12, 2017 by Freightliner Class 66

[jjb1970]

Steam is a good museum, it's not like the locomotive is being cut up or anything. As a GWR locomotive it may be that it'll be more appreciated at Steam than it would be at the NRM.

[EddieB]

Looks like the 2nd one to go has been announced, GWR 2-8-0 2818 is leaving the national collection now http://nrm.org.uk/aboutus/pressoffice/pressreleases/2017/august/2818-swindon

Third, surely?  The first being the North Staffordshire 0-6-2T at Foxfield.

 

Hopefully 2818 will buck the trend and be put under cover - and not in the shopping mall!

[brack]

The kf as a UK built export loco is there on merit, plus it was a gift from China I believe, although the south African 4-8-0 fulfills a similar role.

 

Exactly what role the shinkansen has in telling our national story of railways is the question to ask. Apart from perhaps highlighting our lack of proper investment for 40 odd years.

[phil-b259]

The kf as a UK built export loco is there on merit, plus it was a gift from China I believe, although the south African 4-8-0 fulfills a similar role.

 

Exactly what role the shinkansen has in telling our national story of railways is the question to ask. Apart from perhaps highlighting our lack of proper investment for 40 odd years.

 

At present the role of the Shinkansen in therms of the UK railway story is limited BUT it won't always be that way. The Japanese were the first developed nation in the post WW2 era to realise that, far from being an outdated and irrelevant to the modern world, with the correct investment railways could retain their place as an essential component of any nations long distance passenger transport strategy and fend off the forces of planes and motorways which we were assured represented the future for long distance travel. The Japanese success paved the way for the TGV network in France, which in turn has helped the High Speed rail revolution to spread throughout Europe finally reaching the UK in the form of HS1 and now the forthcoming HS2 line.

 

Thus in 50 or 100 years time, the Sinkansen will become as important as Rocket in the back history of rail travel  - it represents the point in time where the rail fightback against the principles of  'managed decline' (as per UK policy right through until the mid 1990s unfortunately) started, and which is now resulting in brand new mainline railway construction in this country.

 

People often write on here about how its a crying shame class X, Y or Z was scrapped with no examples to demonstrate to later generations. The display / preservation of the preservation of a Shinkasen vehicle may not be of importance now ,but in 50 or 100 years you will be able to put that alongside the UKs first true domestic high speed train used on the likes of HS2 and tell kids "That is what kick started the high speed rail revolution which we now all enjoy".

 

As I said with respect to the Chinese loco - the NRM is not a fossilised collection that assumes the history of railways finished in a certain year, nor is it only supposed to act as a showcase only for 'British' hardware. Its mission is to educate visitors about the UK railway they see around them, how it came to exist and how forces have shaped it. When future generations look at HS2, HS3, etc and ask what was the trigger for them to be built, that linage can be traced straight back to the Sinkansen.

[Freightliner Class 66]

so can we all agree i was wrong about the bloody chinese loco and just move on? i'm kinda regreting joining this forum.

[jjb1970]

I think that most of these discussions go immediately to details and avoid fundamental questions.

 

What is a museum for? Is it primarily to support learning and research or is it primarily leisure and entertainment?

 

What is historically significant?

 

Those two questions are fundamental and should shape a museum. I think that people maybe consider the answers to them to be so obvious that they're seldom discussed. As with any question with obvious answers, if people hold to different answers then it gets problematic.

 

I think there is probably a small minority that use museums for research and learning with a majority that want a nice day out looking at interesting stuff. For those interested in learning the archives than looking at exhibits and for educational purposes interactive exhibits tend to be more useful than displays of old things.

 

On historical significance, I'll be the odd one out but very few locomotives have genuine historical significance. They may be of huge interest to enthusiasts but that isn't the same as being historically significant. If looking at the story of steam locomotives you can tell it with a small handful of preserved steamers. In technical terms you could summarise the technical evolution of the steam engine with 5 or 6 exhibits.

 

On the Series 0 Shinkansen, that is one of the few designs of genuine historical significance.

[Guest Midland Mole]

I hope the NRM know what they are doing, and it does not get out of hand. I have no doubt that STEAM will do their utmost to look after 2818, but as others have said are preserved railways the best place for static locos? Only time will tell on that front I suppose.

I have visited the NRM probably 4 or 5 times in my life and have always enjoyed the visits, and I hope to continue to visit in the future but also hope the it does feel emptier as a result of this current state of affairs.

 

If the NRM want to send some pre-grouping stuff to the Midlands though, I wont complain!

Alex

[bertiedog]

The whole purpose of a museum is to fossilise the collections, they are in the care of a responsible body, away from scrappers, collectors, and dubious businessmen, and the collections are there to act as reference for education and and as a pastime for viewing by the public, who after all foot the bill for the collections in paying tax.

 

The NRM is run by the Science Museum who descend from the Patent Office, and were given in law the duty to store items for reference. They are not a coffee shop, Cinema or holder of leases on commercial enterprises, although they do all of these, justify the income to funds that these raise.

 

Many models and displays were gifted to the Museums to be on display in London, not at york or an other location, but practical space considerations mean the items get moved to store if covenanted in that way.

 

The Science Museum in particular was plagued by lack of space, and opted to break up the collections into regional displays, but left a lot in storage that were viewable before, now alas only viewable by appointment, which by the way cannot be refused.

 

Why they refused to move to larger premises in London remains a bit of a mystery, especially after the war when huge areas were bomb sites and could have been used. Docklands provided space, but they never took it up, it is cheaper to store.

 

If this seems London centric... it is... as more people visit the capital than say visit Bradford, or even York, Most people visit London dozens of times, but York has proved reasonably viable, but yet again is a bit of a cramped site.

 

The only better example is the Smithsonian in the US, but even there it sprawls cross eleven or more sites.

 

I am sure the Loco will be safe and looked after at Swindon Steam, but it is not the particulars of a case, but the principles involved in keeping together a national asset,

 

Stephen

[phil-b259]

The whole purpose of a museum is to fossilise the collections, they are in the care of a responsible body, away from scrappers, collectors, and dubious businessmen, and the collections are there to act as reference for education and and as a pastime for viewing by the public, who after all foot the bill for the collections in paying tax.

 

 

While this is true, the world in which museums exist, rarely stays static.

 

In the case of the Science Museum, back in the 1960s when items were being selected for acquisition, there was an emphasis on (i) the exhibits being in 'original' condition and (ii) the belief that it would represent the sole such collection in the country.

 

Nobody expected at the time that 5 decades on we would have over 100 Privately run (as in not backed by the state) Heritage Railways / Museums using, repairing and building steam locomotives in the UK, nor that a certain South Wales scrapman would never get round to processing the bulk of the locomotives he purchased providing a rich resource and enabling the aforementioned lines to have a supply of locos. You also get a sense from official documents that the 'men from the ministry' were sure this 'playing trains by amateurs' would never last, nor would the paying public would really be happy to continue to pay good money to ride behind such an outdated and filthy form of traction once the novelty factor had worn off.

 

As such its arguable that as things stand today, the NRM has a different role to that envisaged in the past - one which focuses less on being a museum of the steam age and more about telling the story of railways right through to the present day and beyond. This subtly changes the needs with respect to what actual items the collection really needs and with such a large, not to mention secure, Heritage railway sector existing to take on surplus items it is not surprising that a few disposals will take place as a result - particularly given the need to ensure the preservation of newer items as they come out of service*

 

Thats not to say steam isn't important but when most of the population is reasonably close to a privately run Heritage railway where they can enjoy the sights, sounds, smells etc of a  ride behind a steam locomotive, the need to have lots of them in a museum building at York (or as was the case before the NRM, in London) is diminished.

 

* Off the top of my head that should in future include 

 

a HST power car and Mk3 coach

the last BR built diesel (a class 58 currently dumped in Spain)

a Eurostar driving car and passenger coach

a Sprinter DMU (which was a revolution in terms of comfort on provincial services)

a 2 car Networker (a continuation of the EMU story to follow on from the 2BIL and 2 HAP)

a 319 and / or 313 vehicle (duel voltage units)

a CIG driving car (to join the 4 COR vhicle and expand the outer suburban EMU story)

a class 60 (last British built diesel design)

a class 92 (last UK built electric loco plus their association with the Channel tunnel)

a class 59 (first privately owned diesel to operate regularly on BR and the forerunner of the very successful 66 class)

a Pendalinio vehicle (BRs pioneering tilt technology come good and the first post privatisation InterCity train

a Voyager vehicle (diesel tilting train and the first bespoke 'Cross Country' InterCity train design)

a Electrostar / Desiro vehicle (BR Mk1 unit replacement to continue the story told by the 4COR)

a IEP vehicle (HST replacement)

a vehicle from the first HS2 fleet

[phil-b259]

 

Why they refused to move to larger premises in London remains a bit of a mystery, especially after the war when huge areas were bomb sites and could have been used. Docklands provided space, but they never took it up, it is cheaper to store.

 

 

 

As you say its all about Money!

 

Please remember that the Science museum is funded by Central Government and as such is subject to the usual Treasury restrictions - particularly so back in the 1960s when the concept of 'Arms length' Government bodies was unheard of and everything was co-ordinated by Whitehall.

 

While the collection of items may well have far exceeded the ability of the Government owned South Kensington site to display them, building further dedicated museum buildings would have required expensive land acquisition in the capital as well as construction costs. Given the prevailing attitudes at the time and the perceived need to invest in other things (for example military stuff as the cold war got into its stride, etc) its not surprising that the Science museum was told to make do with what it had in terms of exhibition space and that when extra space was found for stuff, it was in a redundant tram depot at Clapham rather than in the Capital proper.

 

Also its worth pointing out that at this time London's Docklands were still just that - a thriving commercial docks and not the industrial wasteland of the late 70s / early 80s (by which time the Government was already making plans for the new NRM based in York)

[The Fatadder]

To be honest in this case I am quite pleased to see it (and would be happier still for Steam to take full ownership of Carphilie Castle, KGV, City of Truro and the rest. As a museum to show off the history of the great western, Steam at Swindon and the GWS at Didcot do a far better job than the NRM, and would be a much better home for the GW collection.