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National Railway Museum transfers 2818 to STEAM


Ed-farms
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As you say its all about Money!

 

Please remember that the Science museum is funded by Central Government and as such is subject to the usual Treasury restrictions - particularly so back in the 1960s when the concept of 'Arms length' Government bodies was unheard of and everything was co-ordinated by Whitehall.

 

While the collection of items may well have far exceeded the ability of the Government owned South Kensington site to display them, building further dedicated museum buildings would have required expensive land acquisition in the capital as well as construction costs. Given the prevailing attitudes at the time and the perceived need to invest in other things (for example military stuff as the cold war got into its stride, etc) its not surprising that the Science museum was told to make do with what it had in terms of exhibition space and that when extra space was found for stuff, it was in a redundant tram depot at Clapham rather than in the Capital proper.

 

Also its worth pointing out that at this time London's Docklands were still just that - a thriving commercial docks and not the industrial wasteland of the late 70s / early 80s (by which time the Government was already making plans for the new NRM based in York)

Actually if you read the Hansard with regards the closing of Clapham and the move to York, the various MPs debated on relocating the NRM from Clapham to the central london station that no one wanted and should be closed....St Pancras.

 

I'm kind of surprised all those Edwardian preservationists who decry 563 being given to Swanage haven't come out in arms defending 2818, built in the Edwardian era being given to Steam.. Edwardian is Edwardian, gift is a gift, that national collection is the national collection, old paint needs protecting, and everything Eastleigh is sacred.. and this one was last shopped was Eastleigh etc etc etc...

 

What would have happened if a mechanically complete 28xx, not ex-Barry was given to Minehead, Tyseley, Didcot or Toddington instead.

 

Seems the grapes aren't as sour in Swindon or maybe since the works shut, the knives are blunt.

 

I still think a Star, Castle and a King is 2x GWR 4-6-0's too many, when there is a gap of any equivalent from the LMS, yet there are at least 4 express passenger locos of the SR, and two of the LNER, isn't a 3rd bequeathed already, there was at least 3 chances at Royal Scot passed over, even 6229 didn't join the collection until the 1980's else there wouldn't be a Duchess at York, I understand a Jubilee may some day be in the bag, the NRM could (and may need) to clear house and balance their collection a bit more yet.

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As you say its all about Money!

 

Please remember that the Science museum is funded by Central Government and as such is subject to the usual Treasury restrictions - particularly so back in the 1960s when the concept of 'Arms length' Government bodies was unheard of and everything was co-ordinated by Whitehall....

[Emphasis added]

 

Forgive me, but that's nonsense. The whole point of establishing the Arts Council after WW2 was so that government did not have to make funding decisions about which arts to fund and which not.

 

It followed the model of the BBC (a "Corporation", of course), which, itself, was modelled in part on the idea of the universities which, even if most depended on central government funding, were utterly independent from it.

 

Paul

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Maybe they've learned their lesson, although somehow I doubt it. Much less controversial than the T3 . The chief thing is keeping them undercover and safe . 2818 seems to have fulfilled this , T3 definitely not. Still waiting to see what happens to the person that didn't follow procedures

Procedure was followed, go back and read the blogs. How the communications worked will be the lesson learned.

 

Happy for you or anyone to come to York and chat to me about the reality of what has happened and been undertaken.

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To be honest in this case I am quite pleased to see it (and would be happier still for Steam to take full ownership of Carphilie Castle, KGV, City of Truro and the rest. As a museum to show off the history of the great western, Steam at Swindon and the GWS at Didcot do a far better job than the NRM, and would be a much better home for the GW collection.

Agreed although I do think its important that the NRM recognisises the contribution of all of the UK rail companies and their heritage. The story of the development of UK steam with no GWR representation would be a missing link.

 

Broadening out, the NRM's challenge is to refresh its offering on a regular basis to keep visitors coming back. Seeing the same static exhibits year in year out in the same spot is how the museum was in the early 80s. It got stale, boring and the modern version is way better. Rather than use capital, maintenance and the important commodity of space, I'm more than happy for them to manage their collection so long as they do not sell for scrap or for items to disappear into private collector's hands.

 

I hope the NRM team continue to work on how to show how the railway was and how it worked rather than just showing glossy museum pieces. As technology develops, the ability to offer more immersive experiences will continue to grow and NRM needs to invest in these type of displays, eg the ambulance train was, in my view, a first rate example of what can be achieved.

 

David

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Forgive me, but that's nonsense. The whole point of establishing the Arts Council after WW2 was so that government did not have to make funding decisions about which arts to fund and which not.

 

It followed the model of the BBC (a "Corporation", of course), which, itself, was modelled in part on the idea of the universities which, even if most depended on central government funding, were utterly independent from it.

 

Paul

 

The Treasury still controlled the amount of money the Arts council had in the first place though didn't they and as such had 'influence' over the process. Nowadays we demand independence be rigorously maintained but back in the 1950s and 1960s I'm not convinced the matter was considered that important. Its one of the advantages of using National Lottery lottery funding these days in that it distances the political system from the arts etc even further.

 

Again looking back in time, arts and culture was perceived as a more 'upper class' thing and such types would be more likely to think spending on paintings, ancient artefacts, music and dance as being far more important to the nations cultural well-being than dirty old steam engines.

 

Also while the BBC may well be 'independent' of Government, you don't have to look to hard to find examples of it following the Governments agenda rather than ask awkward questions at that time. Granted this was not necessarily intentional but as with the arts and many other areas, there was a lingering tendency for some of those in charge to be influenced by the class structure and go with ' the Government knows best ethos'.

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Procedure was followed, go back and read the blogs. How the communications worked will be the lesson learned.

 

Happy for you or anyone to come to York and chat to me about the reality of what has happened and been undertaken.

Why not put the record straight in public?  Would a freedom-of-information request help?

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The Record has been set straight here http://blog.nrm.org.uk/managing-national-collection-gifting-t3/

 

And in the three part interview with our Head Curator in Steam Railway this last three issues.

 

An FOI will not give you any more than is already available - and I'm not trying to hide anything. Everyone has their different ideas on what has happened and what should have happened. I'm happy to talk to anyone, but am usually only here on RMWeb as a modeller and enthusiast, though the day job does bump into this every so often.

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I'm kind of surprised all those Edwardian preservationists who decry 563 being given to Swanage haven't come out in arms defending 2818, built in the Edwardian era being given to Steam.. Edwardian is Edwardian, gift is a gift, that national collection is the national collection, old paint needs protecting, and everything Eastleigh is sacred.. and this one was last shopped was Eastleigh etc etc etc...

 

Seems the grapes aren't as sour in Swindon or maybe since the works shut, the knives are blunt.

 

Perhaps Steam is seen as the successor to the days of the trinity of Clapham, York and Swindon, and therefore of one substance with the NRM. As a museum, its core business is the curation of its collection - unlike Swanage and Foxfield who exist primarily to run restored locomotives and stock (certainly no disrespect intended).

 

Of course the other factor is that the Great Western and its apologists have always been, well, "different". So best to let them run along and have all their copper chimneys together...

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Actually if you read the Hansard with regards the closing of Clapham and the move to York, the various MPs debated on relocating the NRM from Clapham to the central london station that no one wanted and should be closed....St Pancras.

 

I'm kind of surprised all those Edwardian preservationists who decry 563 being given to Swanage haven't come out in arms defending 2818, built in the Edwardian era being given to Steam.. Edwardian is Edwardian, gift is a gift, that national collection is the national collection, old paint needs protecting, and everything Eastleigh is sacred.. and this one was last shopped was Eastleigh etc etc etc...

 

What would have happened if a mechanically complete 28xx, not ex-Barry was given to Minehead, Tyseley, Didcot or Toddington instead.

 

Seems the grapes aren't as sour in Swindon or maybe since the works shut, the knives are blunt.

 

I still think a Star, Castle and a King is 2x GWR 4-6-0's too many, when there is a gap of any equivalent from the LMS, yet there are at least 4 express passenger locos of the SR, and two of the LNER, isn't a 3rd bequeathed already, there was at least 3 chances at Royal Scot passed over, even 6229 didn't join the collection until the 1980's else there wouldn't be a Duchess at York, I understand a Jubilee may some day be in the bag, the NRM could (and may need) to clear house and balance their collection a bit more yet.

 

As I said earlier, 'giving' 2818 to Swindon doesn't actually mean much. The 'nation' is merely taking it out of one pocket and putting it in another. It hasn't really given anything away. STEAM is also in a position to keep the loco under cover (it just has to move a few dining tables out of the way). The situation is not at all the same as 563 and as far as I'm concerned it has nothing to do with 'sour grapes'. I want 563 properly displayed, properly cared for and certainly not torn apart so that it can be rebuilt to 2025 standards and steamed. (CJL)

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Well, I dropped into STEAM today and it seems that virtually no-one there had heard anything about this acquisition:  not the staff or the Friends etc.  I am not sure what dining tables could be moved to provide room for 2818.  I suppose the entertainment hall (which used to be a workshop and is often just a blank space) could be brought back into use.  There might be room alongside Caerphilly Castle if access could be arranged.  There seemed to be general uncertainty as to where 2818 might go although someone suggested that the Manor currently on loan from the Severn Valley might be going back: a 28xx is longer than a Manor.  There was general amusement that the people at STEAM had had to find out from the likes of Facebook and the NRM press release.  All good fun and I am sure a solution will be found.

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I had always understood that 2818 had been acquired by Bristol City Council to be housed in a new large museum that it had planed to build.

When the new museum plan fell through, the loco had been gifted to NRM.

 

Please correct me if this is wrong.

 

Keith

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Well, I dropped into STEAM today and it seems that virtually no-one there had heard anything about this acquisition:  not the staff or the Friends etc.  I am not sure what dining tables could be moved to provide room for 2818.  I suppose the entertainment hall (which used to be a workshop and is often just a blank space) could be brought back into use.  There might be room alongside Caerphilly Castle if access could be arranged.  There seemed to be general uncertainty as to where 2818 might go although someone suggested that the Manor currently on loan from the Severn Valley might be going back: a 28xx is longer than a Manor.  There was general amusement that the people at STEAM had had to find out from the likes of Facebook and the NRM press release.  All good fun and I am sure a solution will be found.

The workshop where the Class 50 once was, was full of dining tables last time I was there. Also STEAM usually has at least one visiting item from the NRM, so KGV or Evening Star (if they are still there) could go back to the NRM, and there were two Manors, neither of which belongs to STEAM. In short, nothing much actually belongs to STEAM, so any of it could go in order to make room for 2818 which, apparently, does now actually belong to them! (CJL) 

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The workshop where the Class 50 once was, was full of dining tables last time I was there. Also STEAM usually has at least one visiting item from the NRM, so KGV or Evening Star (if they are still there) could go back to the NRM, and there were two Manors, neither of which belongs to STEAM. In short, nothing much actually belongs to STEAM, so any of it could go in order to make room for 2818 which, apparently, does now actually belong to them! (CJL) 

Yes, that is now known as Great Western Hall and is available for functions, including weddings.  Today, it was empty.  It will of course be full for the September model railway event.  Evening Star has gone back to NRM to be replaced by KGV, which I believe is on a 3 year loan arrangement to head 90th birthday celebrations for KGV.  None of us would like to see KGV leave to go back to a dusty corner of the NRM!  One of the two Manors is actually in the Outlet Mall.  The other is tucked right at the back of the station display.  This is the one that may be on its way but the space will be tight for 2818.  We wait to see.

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Once these locos are incarcerated in museums, its usually the death knell for any future restoration endeavours even if it were possible

 

Brian.

Whilst it's a waste of a good condition machine, and there are others being overhauled in much worse condition with more missing pieces to re-manufacturer, this isn't the only one of its type, and so people may enjoy the possibility of riding several others like it elsewhere.

 

This engine is neither glamorous, nor unique, so it's low down most people's lists.

Indeed there is at least one at risk of being scrapped and another 2-3 of the 28xx/2884 class that look to have little to no chance either, at this stage they already are getting on 50 years slowly rusting outside by this point, another 20 years isn't going to help those ones...a sign the care is selective, and Darwininan theory applies to locomotives too.

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The Treasury still controlled the amount of money the Arts council had in the first place though didn't they and as such had 'influence' over the process. Nowadays we demand independence be rigorously maintained but back in the 1950s and 1960s I'm not convinced the matter was considered that important. Its one of the advantages of using National Lottery lottery funding these days in that it distances the political system from the arts etc even further.

 

Again looking back in time, arts and culture was perceived as a more 'upper class' thing and such types would be more likely to think spending on paintings, ancient artefacts, music and dance as being far more important to the nations cultural well-being than dirty old steam engines.

 

Also while the BBC may well be 'independent' of Government, you don't have to look to hard to find examples of it following the Governments agenda rather than ask awkward questions at that time. Granted this was not necessarily intentional but as with the arts and many other areas, there was a lingering tendency for some of those in charge to be influenced by the class structure and go with ' the Government knows best ethos'.

 

You're now making a much more subtle point, which is one I largely agree with. But what you originally wrote was:

 

"in the 1960s when the concept of 'Arms length' Government bodies was unheard of"

 

That is what was nonsense: the argument that "the concept" was unheard of, when it was a very clearly stated concept (even if imperfectly implemented) - a position you now seem to accept.

 

It's certainly true that ultimately "he who pays the piper calls the tune". The arms-length concept is subject to pressures and flexing. But creative bureaucrats can find ways to make it work to protect independence: an example is the British Film Institute which, in practice, is actually two separate bodies - a government- and lottery-funded "non-departmental public body", subject to all the Treasury's rules and DCMS's ever-changing whims; and a completely independent private charity with its own assets (from memory, c.£100m of property) and income that it's free to apply as it wishes, no matter what government thinks.

 

Paul

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Keith, 2818 was intended to go on display in Bristol but was always on the list of the British Transport Commission historic relics, which became the National Collection as we know it

 

Thank you very much for the explanation , much appreciated .

 

Keith.

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Whilst it's a waste of a good condition machine, and there are others being overhauled in much worse condition with more missing pieces to re-manufacturer, this isn't the only one of its type, and so people may enjoy the possibility of riding several others like it elsewhere.

 

This engine is neither glamorous, nor unique, so it's low down most people's lists.

Indeed there is at least one at risk of being scrapped and another 2-3 of the 28xx/2884 class that look to have little to no chance either, at this stage they already are getting on 50 years slowly rusting outside by this point, another 20 years isn't going to help those ones...a sign the care is selective, and Darwininan theory applies to locomotives too.

 

But what about the rarities?  I really only really know GW or SR, so instead of locking away a unique Star or a Dean goods,  even the City which after a lot of work, just seemed to give up upon, why not try and get them running?  Can't be any more expensive than the amounts quoted to rehab other locos and cheaper than new builds.

 

 

 

Brian.

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I believe 'original' is a rather generous term in respect of any steam locomotive.

Especially this one - the original rocket is what they were given by Lord Carlisle's Railway, but has a new smokebox, firebox, cylinders in a different place and a few other changes compared to its original state. However the other 2 rockets were built somewhat later so are definitely replicas, even if they're much closer to original condition than the real one.

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