National Railway Museum transfers 2818 to STEAM

[Oldddudders]

But what about the rarities?  I really only really know GW or SR, so instead of locking away a unique Star or a Dean goods,  even the City which after a lot of work, just seemed to give up upon, why not try and get them running?  Can't be any more expensive than the amounts quoted to rehab other locos and cheaper than new builds.

 

 

 

Brian.

 

With you on that, Brian. Some of us find museums stuffy and lifeless, and the interactive stuff designed for younger folk has no appeal at all. Railways are about movement, not plinths. 

[Sir Hadyn]

But what about the rarities?  I really only really know GW or SR, so instead of locking away a unique Star or a Dean goods,  even the City which after a lot of work, just seemed to give up upon, why not try and get them running?  Can't be any more expensive than the amounts quoted to rehab other locos and cheaper than new builds.

 

 

 

Brian.

The Museum didn't give up on City of Truro, but new tyres and firebox are expensive items. I love seeing engines working, but do the maths and work out how much it would cost to get everything running and maintain it so.

 

500k-£1m to overhaul/restore a steam loco which may or may not run for up to 10 years, or 500k-1m to digitise drawings, photographs etc and make them accessible for all time? You choose.

[Steamport Southport]

But what about the rarities?  I really only really know GW or SR, so instead of locking away a unique Star or a Dean goods,  even the City which after a lot of work, just seemed to give up upon, why not try and get them running?  Can't be any more expensive than the amounts quoted to rehab other locos and cheaper than new builds.

 

 

 

Brian.

 

Well Tornado cost a fraction of the price of overhauling Flying Scotsman. Look how far the Patriot has got. These new builds could potentially last for another hundred years or so. How long will Flying Scotsman, Lode Star or City Of Truro last without major component replacement? That's when all you have is just a replica anyway.

 

All this by people donating a few pounds a month. I personally donate to two new build projects. Both are well on the way to being finished. Wasn't someone planning to build a new Dean Goods using a spare Dean boiler? And someone else a new Star, or is that just my imagination?

 

 

As regards 2818 then I think it's the right place. Although it does slew the balance of the NRM even more towards being an LNER museum. I notice none of those are being "transferred" elsewhere.

 

 

No real prospect or point in restoring it to steam as there are already plenty of GWR 2-8-0s around. Including at least one or two currently for sale.

 

 

 

Jason

[Sir Hadyn]

Thanks Jason - though I must contest the age old preconception that the NRM is LNER biased. Do the maths and work out the proportion of LNER items of rolling stock and then how many are actually on display at York. You'll be surprised...

[Guest spet0114]

The Museum didn't give up on City of Truro, but new tyres and firebox are expensive items. I love seeing engines working, but do the maths and work out how much it would cost to get everything running and maintain it so.

 

500k-£1m to overhaul/restore a steam loco which may or may not run for up to 10 years, or 500k-1m to digitise drawings, photographs etc and make them accessible for all time? You choose.

That's rather the point - we can't. If we could choose, 2818, 563 etc might still be in public ownership and we'd not be having this discussion.

[EddieB]

With you on that, Brian. Some of us find museums stuffy and lifeless, and the interactive stuff designed for younger folk has no appeal at all. Railways are about movement, not plinths. 

I'd rather see a locomotive on a plinth or in a museum than as a pile of scrap metal (Denmark please note).  

 

There will never be sufficient resources available to restore and maintain every saved locomotive in working order.  What happens to the rest is a choice between static display or scrap

 

Museums do not have to be stuffy and lifeless.  Only yesterday a friend (not an enthusiast) was describing how he was fascinated by the diversity of the collection at Mangapps - a mix of history, local interest and sheer curiosity..

[stewartingram]

Thanks Jason - though I must contest the age old preconception that the NRM is LNER biased. Do the maths and work out the proportion of LNER items of rolling stock and then how many are actually on display at York. You'll be surprised...

 

I remember when 2818 was first moved to York. It was publicly stated by the NRM that it was welcomed, as their GW collection was very thin. (Not bad from me as a non-GWR fan!). Funny how things change....

 

Stewart

[Sir Hadyn]

That's rather the point - we can't. If we could choose, 2818, 563 etc might still be in public ownership and we'd not be having this discussion.

Different discussion - my point being that of restoration of a loco vs. making the non-rolling stock collection accessible. Yours being what is or isn't in the collection.

 

I'm off to boil the kettle, anyone coming for a brew? I don't bite.

[MarkC]

Different discussion - my point being that of restoration of a loco vs. making the non-rolling stock collection accessible. Yours being what is or isn't in the collection.

 

I'm off to boil the kettle, anyone coming for a brew? I don't bite.

I'll gladly have a brew with you, Anthony - won't be for a few weeks though

[dibber25]

In the latest issue of RAIL magazine, which I've seen today, Christian Wolmar (who tells us he's on the NRM Advisory Panel) advocates getting rid of yet more locomotives (it'll only rile a few enthusiasts, he says) in order to..........wait for it......... accommodate a fish and chip shop in the Great Hall, because the railway made fish and chips possible. He's invited e-mail responses. He's already got mine. With advice like that from trusted individuals, I fear there's no hope for OUR National Collection. (CJL)

Edited August 16, 2017 by dibber25

[Dava]

Maybe the NRM should stick to what it's best at? Which is quite a lot of things.

 

Leave Yorkshire fish & chips to the experts: http://www.wackersofyork.com/

 

Others readily available!

 

Dava

[adb968008]

In the latest issue of RAIL magazine, which I've seen today, Christian Wolmar (who tells us he's on the NRM Advisory Panel) advocates getting rid of yet more locomotives (it'll only rile a few enthusiasts, he says) in order to..........wait for it......... accommodate a fish and chip shop in the Great Hall, because the railway made fish and chips possible. He's invited e-mail responses. He's already got mine. With advice like that from trusted individuals, I fear there's no hope for OUR National Collection. (CJL)

He might be right. Indeed there maybe too many steam locomotives in the UK for the industry to support in the future.

A Railway museum exists to interpret railways to ALL of us. The NRM has evolved from York shed into a museum, because the demographic visiting the museum has changed. It's no longer full of 16-30 year old males "copping" numbers.

 

Today it's families, kids that only can name 4 or 5 engines at most, (+ Thomas & co), every engine after that is just another engine. None of those families appreciate why they existed or why their world is what it is today.

 

Railways of the 1960's is a lost world. Ask a kid to name a V2, or why it exists is too far out there to be understood, do fish even go by rail any more ? - I dunno I've been an enthusiast for decades. Newspapers, TPO, Parcels, MGR, Speedlink, Redstar even the guards compartment exist only in our memories, preserved railways and model layouts.. it's a lost world, having rows and rows of locos does nothing to explain that.

 

A few years back on safari, the gamekeeper asked if anyone could name types of Antelope in South Africa.., queue me to an astonished crowd as I rattled off all my B1's., teenagers can't do that, I doubt even many 40 somethings can either.. the fact that Everything, Fish, meat, tomatoes, beer, milk, whisky all went by rail tooo... all That world too is gone.

 

Is the museum being Disneyfied, is the concentration of our hardrailways being diluted... maybe... but if that's what it takes to get footfall through the door, then needs be, as the alternative... looks like the Warsaw Railway museum, few visitors, a bit shabby, rundown, outdoor, no facilities and I doubt visitors could even care less what they used to do, it's just a line of rotting wrecks that unlike much of the other 200 locos rusting in the country, these occasionally gets to share a can of lime green paint every decade. German forums are full of frustration that the only surviving streamlined 03 is in Warsaw.. unloved and unable to do anything about it.

 

If people leave the museum thinking Green Arrow is the fish train engine, 2500 is a commuter engine and that massive Chinese engine was actually built in the U.K. And exported to the other side of the world, unlike today where everything seems to come the other way., then education has worked, and maybe a full belly instead of a cucumber sandwich too.

 

I've been to some world class railway museums, they aren't all ex-loco sheds with rows of locos, the NRM is excellant and priveliged to have more than it needs, but the interpretation needs to be one that is only deep enough for an untrained, less enthusiastic audience, over do it.. they'll become bored and leave.

 

Sometimes less is more.

Edited August 16, 2017 by adb968008

[brack]

I'm sure frying oil in the great hall for 8 hours a day will leave a lovely sticky deposit and smell on the exhibits.

 

I wonder, does the national gallery have advisors suggesting they bin some paintings so they can put a burger van indoors next to The Fighting Temeraire, and while we're at it we've too many van dycks, so we've lent one to a pub to use it for a sign, it'll be outside for a bit so we mightn't want it back, so maybe we'll just give it to them?

I mean most people can only name a handful of paintings and everyone just takes photos on their phone these days, so maybe we should chuck most of their collection out and just keep half a dozen to show people what painting is.

[dibber25]

A museum isn't there to entertain kids or anybody else. It is there so that future generations can study and understand the past. Otherwise, why do we keep HMS Victory, when today's kids don't understand anything that's not a speedboat and would have no idea that kids their age served in the Navy. Why is footfall important to the NRM, there's no admission charge, and the food and tat stalls inside the NRM could just as easily make their money in the nearest shopping mall? The real problem is that the raison d'etre for museums is being increasingly forgotten, or ignored. Swindon Council believes that the 3million people a year who visit the outlet centre should all visit STEAM, and can't understand that people shopping for a cheap pair of trainers aren't going to visit a railway museum. We shouldn't confuse museums with public entertainment and we shouldn't confuse the conservation of historic artefacts with the creation of modern working replicas. And Green Arrow is a bright green engine that looks like Flying Scotsman. It can't be restored to working order without destroying the monobloc cylinder casting which was the reason it was preserved, and it isn't currently at the NRM, so there's three good reasons for giving that away! (CJL)

[adb968008]

I'm sure frying oil in the great hall for 8 hours a day will leave a lovely sticky deposit and smell on the exhibits.

I wonder, does the national gallery have advisors suggesting they bin some paintings so they can put a burger van indoors next to The Fighting Temeraire, and while we're at it we've too many van dycks, so we've lent one to a pub to use it for a sign, it'll be outside for a bit so we mightn't want it back, so maybe we'll just give it to them?

I mean most people can only name a handful of paintings and everyone just takes photos on their phone these days, so maybe we should chuck most of their collection out and just keep half a dozen to show people what painting is.

I've never been to the National Gallery, I've limited interest in art, my perception is that it's wall to wall paintings.. probably stale stuffy boring full of Lovejoy cast types hence I don't go..

Skin deep.. maybe, but the same principle applies to people's interest in trains...

I'm sure it's different than that, I don't know, my interests lie elsewhere, hence why breaking a stereo type is crucial, and railway enthusiasts really were the ultimate stereotypes in the 1980's, and the hobby has done massively well to break it, to the point of social acceptability today... creating world class museums, chocolate box railways that translate railways into entertainment was the key to it.

 

If the NRM was based In Southall shed, as it looks today, you can guarantee no one would ever go.. despite being in the edge of london.. image is important, facilities comes next, then the entertainment...Didcot learned it too, it's much more than a shed full of locos.

Edited August 16, 2017 by adb968008

[adb968008]

A museum isn't there to entertain kids or anybody else. It is there so that future generations can study and understand the past. Otherwise, why do we keep HMS Victory, when today's kids don't understand anything that's not a speedboat and would have no idea that kids their age served in the Navy. Why is footfall important to the NRM, there's no admission charge, and the food and tat stalls inside the NRM could just as easily make their money in the nearest shopping mall? The real problem is that the raison d'etre for museums is being increasingly forgotten, or ignored. Swindon Council believes that the 3million people a year who visit the outlet centre should all visit STEAM, and can't understand that people shopping for a cheap pair of trainers aren't going to visit a railway museum. We shouldn't confuse museums with public entertainment and we shouldn't confuse the conservation of historic artefacts with the creation of modern working replicas. And Green Arrow is a bright green engine that looks like Flying Scotsman. It can't be restored to working order without destroying the monobloc cylinder casting which was the reason it was preserved, and it isn't currently at the NRM, so there's three good reasons for giving that away! (CJL)

Ever been to the British museum, Walked the Smithsonian museums dotting the mall in Washington, HK History museum... they are full of kids and tourists eager to learn history.

 

Kids learn far more in museums than adults do, if presented correctly. Kids and tourists want to be influenced, that's why they visit, curiosity, learn something different.

 

As for food in a museum... because when people leave.. they tend to not come back after lunch.

 

No kids, no future... then no need for a museum... how many adults "discovered railway enthusiasm" in their 40's... not many.. they discovered it as a kid, grew up with it, then maybe after a period "rediscovered it" it in later life.

Edited August 16, 2017 by adb968008

[dibber25]

Ever been to the British museum, Walked the Smithsonian museums dotting the mall in Washington, HK History museum... they are full of kids and tourists eager to learn history.

 

No kids, no future... then no need for a museum.

 

As for food in a museum... because when people leave.. they tend to not come back after lunch.

The important word was 'entertain'. I didn't say museums weren't for kids. I said they weren't there to entertain kids. I have a son who teaches history and three grandchildren who love museums and historic places and the occasional visit to a preserved railway. We're, neither of us, going to understand the other's point of view as we're clearly from different generations and have different views of what's important. (CJL)

[Zomboid]

HMS Victory is a good example. I may be missing something, but in the UK we have a proud naval history, and Portsmouth is our premier naval museum.

In terms of what I'd call a large boat, there's only Victory and Warrior. That's not the whole collection of course as I'm sure there's at least a sub and that X33(?) as well as loads of smaller things (I'm not really counting Mary Rose because it isn't really preserved, it's an excellent exhibition surrounding a conserved wreck which has been considered lost for centuries).

Obviously military boats are not the same as trains, but we somehow keep many centuries of naval history represented with very few full scale exhibits. Seems to work, and on that basis I suspect the NRM could do very well with considerably fewer locos than it has at present.

As enthusiasts we overstate the historic significance of our favourites, most of which are just another engine to casual families.

[adb968008]

The important word was 'entertain'. I didn't say museums weren't for kids. I said they weren't there to entertain kids. I have a son who teaches history and three grandchildren who love museums and historic places and the occasional visit to a preserved railway. We're, neither of us, going to understand the other's point of view as we're clearly from different generations and have different views of what's important. (CJL)

Fair enough, we share the hobby and ultimately pull the same direction, just different view points.

It is clear we are different generations, I know my generation is a much more lonely place than my parents when it comes to this hobby, yet talking about the generation below mine, I really don't see many people following my footsteps or my parents or even my grandparents (Electrical engineer at Metro-vik in the 1940's), and great grandfather (a metal planer at Horwich L&Y) when it comes to railways.

I do think things can be done however, but it needs to be something that appeals to the current generations, as they will be the ones left behind to look after it... if they don't care... then it will deteriorate.. fast.

Edited August 16, 2017 by adb968008

[Bon Accord]

HMS Victory is a good example. I may be missing something, but in the UK we have a proud naval history, and Portsmouth is our premier naval museum.

In terms of what I'd call a large boat, there's only Victory and Warrior. That's not the whole collection of course as I'm sure there's at least a sub and that X33(?) as well as loads of smaller things (I'm not really counting Mary Rose because it isn't really preserved, it's an excellent exhibition surrounding a conserved wreck which has been considered lost for centuries).

Obviously military boats are not the same as trains, but we somehow keep many centuries of naval history represented with very few full scale exhibits. Seems to work, and on that basis I suspect the NRM could do very well with considerably fewer locos than it has at present.

As enthusiasts we overstate the historic significance of our favourites, most of which are just another engine to casual families.

I don't think there's a viable comparison to ship preservation.

However what is comparable are the various IWM "RAF" museums (Hendon, Duxford etc) and note just how popular they are. It's also worth noting that they're absolutely stuffed to the gunnels with aircraft of every size, type and appearance - almost all of which are of the same era as the steam locomotive.

[Zomboid]

The tank museum at Bovington, too. But to me Portsmouth shows that there is another way.

Not saying that we should only have 4 engines in the NRM or anything like that, but that to keep punters coming through the doors it's not necessarily essential to have lots of them, the differences of which will go largely unappreciated.

Guess the question is whether it should be a gateway to railways, or the pinnacle of rail history, or of it can somehow do both with an ever decreasing budget...

[Bon Accord]

The tank museum at Bovington, too. But to me Portsmouth shows that there is another way.

Not saying that we should only have 4 engines in the NRM or anything like that, but that to keep punters coming through the doors it's not necessarily essential to have lots of them, the differences of which will go largely unappreciated.

Guess the question is whether it should be a gateway to railways, or the pinnacle of rail history, or of it can somehow do both with an ever decreasing budget...

 

The Historic Dockyard is a huge site though, and whilst there is only a few "large scale" exhibits there, there is a huge number of smaller items which will fit in buildings and onboard the ships themselves. Plus it's worth remembering that ship preservation is eye wateringly expensive and labour intensive, accordingly the UK actually has comparatively few ships preserved and material available. For the equivalent cost of continuous upkeep of the likes of WARRIOR/VICTORY including large rebuilds every few decades due to their exposure to the open air, then you could probably build a number of NRM sized sheds around the country every decade and continuously fill them with locos.

If you want to see how maritime preservation can be properly accomplished with a lot of preserved ships (including some which still sail on special occasions) and a lot of visitors to boot then the Hamburg Maritime Museum cannot be beaten - to me, considering our maritime history it is unforgivable that there is nothing comparable in the UK. Of course the Hamburg museum benefits from a forward thinking local government and state which recognises it's value and so supports it - something very much lacking in the UK.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Bon Accord

[eastglosmog]

HMS Victory is a good example. I may be missing something, but in the UK we have a proud naval history, and Portsmouth is our premier naval museum.

In terms of what I'd call a large boat, there's only Victory and Warrior. That's not the whole collection of course as I'm sure there's at least a sub and that X33(?) as well as loads of smaller things (I'm not really counting Mary Rose because it isn't really preserved, it's an excellent exhibition surrounding a conserved wreck which has been considered lost for centuries).

Obviously military boats are not the same as trains, but we somehow keep many centuries of naval history represented with very few full scale exhibits. Seems to work, and on that basis I suspect the NRM could do very well with considerably fewer locos than it has at present.

As enthusiasts we overstate the historic significance of our favourites, most of which are just another engine to casual families.

I think you're forgetting HMS Belfast in London - she is bigger than Warrior!  The submarine you are thinking of will  be HMS Alliance at Gosport.

[Clearwater]

In the latest issue of RAIL magazine, which I've seen today, Christian Wolmar (who tells us he's on the NRM Advisory Panel) advocates getting rid of yet more locomotives (it'll only rile a few enthusiasts, he says) in order to..........wait for it......... accommodate a fish and chip shop in the Great Hall, because the railway made fish and chips possible. He's invited e-mail responses. He's already got mine. With advice like that from trusted individuals, I fear there's no hope for OUR National Collection. (CJL)

I think Mr Wolmar is, at times, in danger of believing his own publicity...

[Guest spet0114]

Different discussion - my point being that of restoration of a loco vs. making the non-rolling stock collection accessible. Yours being what is or isn't in the collection.

 

I'm off to boil the kettle, anyone coming for a brew? I don't bite.

Both are aspects of the NRM's duty to act as custodian of the national collection. Both are examples of decisions in which the public has no say.