Bargainistas Vs Discussionists :D

[stovepipe]

What I'm most surprised about is that people actually receive alerts - it has never worked in any other topic I've followed, though I've not followed bargain hunters admittedly.

[John M Upton]

Is it just me or is anyone else finding the whole ongoing Bargain Thread-Gate becoming increasingly more and more bizarre by the hour?

[dogbox321]

Why cannot there just be a new tread to post 'Bargains' on.  Or alternatively to keep things concise, start a new one each month for bargains applicable to that month, then at the end of that month Andy York close it off.

 

Terms - give details of the product, its price and the company making the offer, a possible link.  

 

Nothing else! 

 

The reader is then responsible for making a decision as to whether they want the item or not, at that price.  No jibbring on about the item, whether the detail is right, speculating whether the manufacturer is going bankrupt, its the end of the modelling industry or anything else, just plain old "Ronseal" - A thread that does what it says!

 

SIMPLES!

 

Regards,

 

C.

[leopardml2341]

Why cannot there just be a new tread to post 'Bargains' on. Or alternatively to keep things concise, start a new one each month for bargains applicable to that month, then at the end of that month Andy York close it off.

 

Terms - give details of the product, its price and the company making the offer, a possible link.

 

Nothing else!

 

The reader is then responsible for making a decision as to whether they want the item or not, at that price. No jibbring on about the item, whether the detail is right, speculating whether the manufacturer is going bankrupt, its the end of the modelling industry or anything else, just plain old "Ronseal" - A thread that does what it says!

 

SIMPLES!

 

Regards,

 

C.

But it's not unfortunately, I tried the same with this thread:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/123769-zinc-pest-mazak-rot-the-affected-models-list/

 

I started it so that fellow RMWebbers could have a one stop shop if they were worried about any of their models being affected.

 

You will probably see how many posts I have had to 'hide'......

Edited August 12, 2017 by leopardml2341

[Banger Blue]

Why cannot there just be a new tread to post 'Bargains' on.  Or alternatively to keep things concise, start a new one each month for bargains applicable to that month, then at the end of that month Andy York close it off.

 

Terms - give details of the product, its price and the company making the offer, a possible link.  

 

Nothing else! 

 

The reader is then responsible for making a decision as to whether they want the item or not, at that price.  No jibbring on about the item, whether the detail is right, speculating whether the manufacturer is going bankrupt, its the end of the modelling industry or anything else, just plain old "Ronseal" - A thread that does what it says!

 

SIMPLES!

 

Regards,

 

C.

I'm sure Andy Y doesn't need any more work than he already has!

 

The forum already has a thread back up & running for posting modelling bargains and hopefully, people will continue to post modelling bargains that they find.

 

As for the rest of your post, I really quite agree! It would seem a majority just want one thread (amongst the many thousands on this forum) where they can see what's available, free from discussion.

[airwimp075]

I am not a regular poster but I found the old thread helpful, being a relative newcomer to the hobby the discussion often helped in confirming whether a product was a bargain and a good investment or not. I don't know how funding and hosting of forums work so it may not be possible, however, similar to Banger Blue's suggestion, a section under the 'trade & products zone' or 'modelling zone' titled 'bargains' or similar could be added so it's visible from the home page. Within this section a topic can be created with a title of 'product name, scale and price'. The first post can include where the bargain is and more important information the finder feels is important such as quantities etc. This way someone who is interested can then view the thread and decide whether it's for them or not, and if anybody wishes to add to the bargain or discuss it further they can do below.

I feel that this would give a quick bargain directory where if you are interested you can have a closer look, if not, skip on by to the next.

I am unsure as the whether you can get alerts for new threads or not, if not this was a wasted post and I apologise, and if it will incur excessive hosting costs making it unfeasible, again, I am sorry.

I believe this is a similar set up to the old sales and want a section... and hopefully little to no baby sitting by mods post initial setup.

Jason

 

Edited to correct 'zone' names

Edited August 12, 2017 by airwimp075

[Phil47gwr]

I think a certain degree of discussion, commenting on a particular model which featured as a bargain, was permissible but it became silly when individuals tried to be funny. And failed (IMHO).

 

So, regretfully, I'm a bargainista.

[lyneux]

Despite hating the bargain hunters thread at times, I really don't think that two topics are the answer either. A certain amount of discussion is necessary (and fun!) but when the thread gets totally hijacked, surely we can just politely remind people to get back on topic?

 

Some recent gems:

 

- Where is the best place online to buy paint?

- Why has London lost it's model shops?

- The challenges faced by small traders and digitisation.

 

All of these are really interesting questions but best discussed elsewhere.

 

We at least have better 'terms of reference' at the top of the new topic (thanks Mick). It's probably enough for now isn't it?

 

Guy

[bourneagain]

Not wanting to sound disrespectful but it appears that a some people have lost the plot.

A “bargain” is only a bargain, so long as it’s still available to purchase. Surely if the outlet (apart from a budget supermarket), is selling an item cheap, then they have, in all probability only a very limited stock. By the time the bargain item is posted on here, I would take a bet that it wouldn`t be very long before they`re all snapped up. So what is the point of having a discussion about a bargain that could be no longer available?

I imagine that the majority do what I do, just look at the latest posting to see if there is anything of interest, if so, make a quick decision; do I want it now? I agree that there could be a catch why the item is being sold cheap, hence some of the discussion comments, but to go into an sort of lengthy discussion on a bargain that may be no longer available is probably a waste of time.

The only useful comments would be that there said item is now no longer available, as I have brought the last one, or they have now all sold, if only to prevent the outlet being swamped with enquires. 

[keithmbell]

For crying out loud...........which bit of "Bargain hunters" do people not understand.

Just post the bargains. That's it. Please.This is driving me mad.

[96701]

For crying out loud...........which bit of "Bargain hunters" do people not understand.

Just post the bargains. That's it. Please.This is driving me mad.

Well, this is the discussion thread, the bargains are posted here. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/125236-bargain-hunters-mark-2/

 

If you don't want to discuss bargains, don't come to this thread.

 

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

[leavesontheline]

So I'm confused, is this topic just for the poll for the other topic, or is it a discussion topic for the poll for the other topic and whether or not to include discussion in that topic? 

[John M Upton]

Time to lock this thread and move on I reckon.  This is just getting silly.

[Banger Blue]

Well, this is the discussion thread, the bargains are posted here. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/125236-bargain-hunters-mark-2/

 

If you don't want to discuss bargains, don't come to this thread.

 

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

So I'm confused, is this topic just for the poll for the other topic, or is it a discussion topic for the poll for the other topic and whether or not to include discussion in that topic?

 

Actually this thread was just for the poll to see who wanted what and to let members have their say on the issue, some are all for having two separate bargain threads and others are for the status quo.

 

Time to lock this thread and move on I reckon. This is just getting silly.

I agree, time to lock it up. As it stands, as I type this, 76 members have voted:

 

68 voted for seperate threads (60 voted for bargains alerts and nothing else, 8 voting so they can discuss things to their hearts content on a separate thread.)

11 have voted to keep it all within one thread.

 

I have no idea how we have three more votes than actual voters voting, who's been in touch with Moscow?

Edited August 17, 2017 by Banger Blue

[sb67]

The bargain thread is one I look for every time I come on here and I've benefitted from it so many times.  I really hope this gets sorted out and we dont lose a bargain thread all together.

Steve. 

[Torper]

We've had this discussion.  It appears that there was a problem for people who liked to be alerted every time a new bargain came up so that they could get in there first.  Lengthy discussions on the thread meant that they were constantly receiving alerts only to find to their undoubted disappointed that there wasn't a bargain after all (I'm tempted to insert an emoticon here).  Now that that has been aired, and the problem revealed, can we not just wait and see if the complaints have been taken on board and new bargains thread works to the satisfaction of everyone? (Well, nearly everyone).

 

DT

[Norm81]

The issue I had was I had immediate email alerts set up so I could act fast if necessary - I suspect others had done the same.

 

Before the old thread was locked I was having to wade through multiple emails of conversation to pick out the bargains. Now, I don't mind 2 or 3 etc discussion posts in a row, but it got to the point there was a whole conversation going on and my inbox was filling with spam. So I am tolerant of some discussion, but for me it started to regularly go too far.

 

Bargainista here.

[centraltrains]

As someone who hardly ever posts on these forums but reads them a lot:

 

I think people who don't want comments/discussion on bargains posted are being far too fussy. People need to be able to comment upon and discuss bargains as to establish whether a bargain is actually worth the money or not. People are being given a privilege to have a place which may occasionally alert them to a bargain of interest and naturally people will want to discuss the details of the bargain . I don't mind reading through peoples off-topic discussion and find it mildly entertaining. Perhaps off-topic discussion just needed to be more closely moderated... Personally, I saw bargain hunters as comparable to the ebay madness thread on wheel tappers (where people link to mad ebay listing and will then discuss them)...

 

My arguments/thoughts are probably quite weak as it is next to impossible to balance. The only way I can instantly see/think of it working for everyone is if you had a [trackable (alert on thread creation)] sub-forum where each bargain was individually posted and then people can discuss the bargain on that thread within the sub-forum though that may become messy though people would probably be more likely to think twice before posting...

[Torper]

I don't even think two separate threads would necessarily help the bargain hunters.  Imagine the scenario:  someone post up details of a bargain.  Several alerted bargainistas at once rush to place orders only to discover to their chagrin that in the discussion thread someone else has said that the said item could be found much cheaper somewhere else . 

 

And like others i like reading both about the bargain and any discussion that follows it.  What the bargainistas appear to be saying is that in order to make it less inconvenient for those relatively few of them who have alerts set up it should instead be made more inconvenient for the rest of us who like reading the whole thread.  Anyway, as i said before, surely it would be worhtwhile to see how the new thread turns out.

 

DT

[caradoc]

Personally I enjoyed reading the discussions in the Bargains topic; If there were any posts I found uninteresting I just moved on to the next post (it's not really that difficult). I'm not so desperate to grab a bargain before anyone else that I have alerts set up, I just checked the topic for new content whenever logged on to RM Web. Having two separate topics, one for bargains and another for discussing bargains, just increases the time taken both for those posting the info and for those reading it. Still, the vote was overwhelmingly for separate topics so, as in any democratic system, the result has to be respected.

[Norm81]

I don't even think two separate threads would necessarily help the bargain hunters.  Imagine the scenario:  someone post up details of a bargain.  Several alerted bargainistas at once rush to place orders only to discover to their chagrin that in the discussion thread someone else has said that the said item could be found much cheaper somewhere else . 

 

And like others i like reading both about the bargain and any discussion that follows it.  What the bargainistas appear to be saying is that in order to make it less inconvenient for those relatively few of them who have alerts set up it should instead be made more inconvenient for the rest of us who like reading the whole thread.  Anyway, as i said before, surely it would be worhtwhile to see how the new thread turns out.

 

DT

Except the poll currently indicates 78% prefer no discussion. Which completely contradicts your post and indicates bargainistas are in the majority, not the "relatively few".

 

I'm happy to go with whatever the majority decide.

[ejstubbs]

It appears that there was a problem for people who liked to be alerted every time a new bargain came up so that they could get in there first.

 

Except that the forum software doesn't offer that feature.  What it does is e-mail you every time a new post was made to the Bargain Hunters thread.  A few people seemed to get snitty when they thought that too many of the posts weren't actually bargains.

 

It's what's called an undocumented feature: the immediate notification function is indiscriminate, but so long as people behave more or less the way you want them to then it more or less works.  But this is an internet forum and, much like the big wide world, people don't always behave the way you want them to on here, and sometimes you just have to put up with it.  If it gets out of hand then you can say something on the thread to try to calm them down, but the only policemen on this forum are the moderators.  Complain to them (are there actually any others apart from Andy Y?) if you think people are continuing to behave unreasonably after being asked not to.  What action the mods take is then the end of the matter.

 

Remember that this forum is free to use.  If it doesn't work exactly the way you want it to then you don't have a whole lot of redress.  You can't ask for your money back.  The best you can do is try to influence and persuade people to conform to how you want them to behave.

 

Some of the comments about off-topic discussions on the original Bargain Hunters thread were not couched in particularly diplomatic terms.  "im sick of my mailbox being filled with topic irrelevant updates," is hardly a friendly and persuasive way to cajole people into doing what you want.  Though I struggle to believe that this could actually be true of any RMWebbers, it did have a bit of an air of entitlement to it.

 

Lengthy discussions on the thread meant that they were constantly receiving alerts only to find to their undoubted disappointed that there wasn't a bargain after all (I'm tempted to insert an emoticon here).

 

There doesn't seem to be an emoji for "aw, diddums".

Now that that has been aired, and the problem revealed, can we not just wait and see if the complaints have been taken on board and new bargains thread works to the satisfaction of everyone? (Well, nearly everyone).

 

Have an Agree.

 

Except the poll currently indicates 78% prefer no discussion.

 

As has been pointed out above, the options in the poll were not worded in anything like a neutral fashion.  Given that the people responding are going to be a self-selecting subset of the total RMWeb user population (less than 100, whereas I'm sure that RMweb has many, many more users than that all told) with an interest in the topic, then using loaded wording like "I'm quite happy to clog the thread up with discussion despite polite requests not to" is extremely likely to deliver a skewed result, and stifle debate on the actual pros and cons of a reasonable amount of discussion/feedback on certain bargains that get posted.  A prime recent example on the old thread was the cheap soldering iron that, it was pointed out in subsequently, didn't go below 200º - put that information on a different thread and many people interested in the item won't be made aware of that drawback.  That could end up wasting them money, which is rather more of an issue IMO than some people having a few more e-mails in their Inbox than they want because they're desperate to satisfy their acquisitive urge at the lowest possible cost.  (See: anyone can use emotive language to try to make a point - but dressing it up as a "poll" is more than a little disingenuous.)

 

What I do think went wrong towards the end of the old thread was people posting asking for bargains.  The Kadee discussion that got some people so wound up kicked off that way, and I will put my hand up and admit that I was one of those responsible for it being prolonged.  I would be 100% supportive of people feeling free to say "please post requests for good prices on specific items elsewhere: this thread is for notifying the community of one-off low prices for any product relevant to RMWeb users."  (This does actually echo a genuine bugbear of mine, which is people who resurrect an old - as in years old, sometimes - thread to ask a new question, simply because the old thread had the name of the product or some other keyword in its title, which presumably came up on the forum search engine or Google.  Again, I would support a general recognition on the forum that this is not good practice, and people should be politely advised to start their own, new thread to ask their specific question.)

Edited August 18, 2017 by ejstubbs

[Torper]

Except the poll currently indicates 78% prefer no discussion. Which completely contradicts your post and indicates bargainistas are in the majority, not the "relatively few".

 

Except, as EJStubbs pointed out, the questions in the poll were ridiculously skewed - if you wanted things to stay as they are, you also had to agree that you wanted the thread to be "clogged up despite polite requests not to".  Absurd.  The poll wasn't even in the Bargain Hunters thread, where most interested people might be expected to read it. As for the "relatively few" - 70 out of 32,033?

 

DT

[chris p bacon]

Except the poll currently indicates 78% prefer no discussion. 

 

There, my vote's just reduced that number...... 

 

An issue with threads such as the bargain hunters is human nature itself. When a member with 'self appointed moderator status' starts saying what should or shouldn't happen then some will ignore and actively post.

Personally I never found anything I thought a bargain on it, although I did look regularly. I ignored and skimmed discussion that didn't interest me and didn't have alerts set as checking gets in the way of modelling.  

Edited August 18, 2017 by chris p bacon

[Banger Blue]

Except, as EJStubbs pointed out, the questions in the poll were ridiculously skewed - if you wanted things to stay as they are, you also had to agree that you wanted the thread to be "clogged up despite polite requests not to". Absurd. The poll wasn't even in the Bargain Hunters thread, where most interested people might be expected to read it. As for the "relatively few" - 70 out of 32,033?

 

DT

Absurd, not really. If you insist on the one thread than that is exactly what will happen, the thread will wander off into a discussion about something weird and wonderful, someone will ask (more often than not) politely to get back on track, then you get even more posts of the "you can't tell me what to do type" / "people trying to be funny" type and one or two more requests to get back on topic. Then someone will actually post about a bargain and the whole vicious circle starts again.

 

As for the poll not being in the Bargain Hunters thread, considering some want a discussion free thread, I wasn't then going to clutter it further with even more discussion about the poll hence a separate thread in the SAME area of the forum that contains the Bargain Hunter thread!

Do people really only read one thread on the entire forum? I doubt people are incapable of reading another thread in the same area (especially if it were to be a sticky and therefore easy to find) now that would be an absurd thought.

 

The relative few, as you like to call them have still voted for seperate threads but compared to those who have voted no are in the majority. Does every single eligible person vote in the General Election, no they don't but the majority vote wins the election.

 

Thank you to all for your input and to all who voted either way.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Banger Blue