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GVT - proposed 0-16.5 Layout

GVT 0-16.5




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#1 Jeff Smith

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 16:06

Some of you will have been aware from my Leesburg On30 thread below of my interest in Welsh narrow gauge, and principally the Glyn Valley Tramway in 0-16.5.

 

I have amassed some Peco kit-built and bashed rolling stock, and a yet un-built 12' turntable from Kitwood Hill Models.  Now that I am not constrained by the limitations of fitting the layout into a (8'x2') half oval I can start planning a more representative layout, probably based on Chirk.

 

I have been trawling the internet and can only find an 009 GVT layout.  I'm sure 0-16.5 ones exist and I would be pleased to see pictures of any to perhaps channel my ideas.


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#2 Jeff Smith

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 19:23

I've had time to think this through a bit and look at the Chirk trackplan.  This will only be a representation based on track schematics and pictures.  I've also decided to make the layout left to right with Chirk at the right.  The front of the layout will be the back of the mainline station, in other words the fence between the GWR platform and the GVT platform.  So the backdrop will be the embankment and trees on the canal side.  I'm looking at 4 foot baseboards.  The first board will be the approach to the road bridge and include Chirk-end part of the storage loop.  This board will not have any structures just Peco O-16.5 track, embankment and trees.  This can then serve a dual purpose as a two track fiddle yard and scenic board for On30 stock photography etc.  The next board will start with the road bridge and include the platform and loop.  The third will have the turntable, carriage shed and lead to the exchange sidings which will be on the fourth board together with a possible canal wharf.  The third and fourth boards will vary considerably from the prototype track plan.


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#3 PaulRhB

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 19:41

The two recent Milner books on the GVT should channel everything you could ever need ;)
There's these new comprehensive ones
Rails to Glyn Ceiriog pts 1 & 2 but the prices have gone a bit daft at times.

And this earlier overview but still a nice book at a sensible price.
https://www.abebooks...hor/w-j-milner/

#4 Jeff Smith

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 00:26

I have the earlier one you linked to. I also have one from David Llewelyn Davies published by the Oakwood Press. Small format and largely eclipsed by the first but still a nice fairly comprehensive book.

Peco seems to have based it's O-16.5 track and kit range largely on the GVT (tram loco, coach and 4 ton mineral wagons) as the gauge is correct and the track is very similar in rail and sleeper size and spacing.

#5 Northroader

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 06:56

There's also the preservation societies website:http://www.glynvalleytramway.org.uk/

#6 hayfield

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 08:36

Some of you will have been aware from my Leesburg On30 thread below of my interest in Welsh narrow gauge, and principally the Glyn Valley Tramway in 0-16.5.

 

I have amassed some Peco kit-built and bashed rolling stock, and a yet un-built 12' turntable from Kitwood Hill Models.  Now that I am not constrained by the limitations of fitting the layout into a (8'x2') half oval I can start planning a more representative layout, probably based on Chirk.

 

I have been trawling the internet and can only find an 009 GVT layout.  I'm sure 0-16.5 ones exist and I would be pleased to see pictures of any to perhaps channel my ideas.

 

There is a thread on here mainly about the buildings   http://www.rmweb.co....infrastructure/  Just search Glyn Valley on here and there are quite a few results



#7 Jeff Smith

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 11:36

Thanks, I appreciate all this good advice. I thought at one time there were two competing preservation organisations for the GVT?

#8 PaulRhB

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 13:07

I think it was a year or so back they decided to cooperate :)

#9 Jeff Smith

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 19:55

I have now acquired an unstarted Wrightlines 4-6-0 Baldwin kit. A quick look indicates major work to get the motor into the boiler and unobtrusive drive to the rear or centre drivers. Also to compensate and convert to GVT configuration. According to the Radio Times page in the box it was produced in late 1995.

The chassis is designed for 0-16.5 and is etched in thick brass with the daylight spaces between the top and bottom bars and around the leaf springs, half-etched. I plan to cut these out.

#10 Hesperus

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 20:13

RM did a plan of the month that was a room sized 0-16.5 GVT layout.  I'm fairly sure that I have the issue but can't remember which one but will have a look if you think it would be useful.



#11 PaulRhB

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 20:42

It was a Roy Link plan in the December 78 edition according to my list. I've got it too somewhere if H can't find it.
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#12 Hesperus

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 22:10

Found easily thanks to Paul and after a minor battle with technology it is scanned ready to email.

 

I also have J.I.C. Boyds volume, Narrow gauge Railways of Mid Wales which has loads of trackplans and rolling stock drawings that can be scanned.



#13 Jeff Smith

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 22:11

I would be interested to see it if it doesn't contravene any copyright.

#14 flyingsignalman

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 20:21

Here are some photos of two track plans I obtained from the former OPC/NRM plans service in the late 1970's/early 1980's.
Full size photos are on a flickr page of mine that I can no longer access to add or remove photos from; look for Keith Spencer or flyingsignalman as I'm not sure how to link the album they're in to this site.
These photos are reduced to allow them to be posted here.
OPC reduced the plans but included a ruler at the bottom of the first plan to give an idea of the reduction.
the first five are of a more extensive plan and the final three are of an earlier plan going by the shorter GWR platforms.

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Edited by flyingsignalman, 26 September 2017 - 20:22 .

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#15 Jeff Smith

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 22:15

Thanks, this is very interesting, I had no idea the GWR track plan was so extensive.  The second track plan has left off large sections of the GVT but as you note is probably the later plan due to the extended platforms.



#16 Jeff Smith

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 03:12

Further study of the Baldwin kit suggests that the chassis is actually narrow enough for O-14. I will be assembling using wider frame spacers. I have also decided to use Gibson sprung hornblocks with drive to the centre drivers with allowance for the motor/gearbox to move up and down in the boiler. The compensation effect of the sprung hornblocks is not as critical as for P4 (where I have used them before) as 0-16.5 uses 00 wheel flanges - it's more for keeping the wheels on the track for electrical continuity.

Brian from Branchlines very kindly sent me an article by Ian Johnston about a similar conversion to help in motor/gearbox selection - the kit design has the motor in the cab but the Baldwin had a considerable air gap under the cab and boiler/firebox making getting an unobtrusive drive to the wheels a challenge.

Edited by Jeff Smith, 27 September 2017 - 23:25 .


#17 flyingsignalman

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 20:18

Thanks, this is very interesting, I had no idea the GWR track plan was so extensive.  The second track plan has left off large sections of the GVT but as you note is probably the later plan due to the extended platforms.


You mention the extensive track plan. The reason for the sidings on the up side is that they served two collieries; Black Park and Brinkinallt. Black Park lasted (from memory) to the early 1950's and Brinkinallt became a ventilation shaft for another colliery called Ifton in the late 1920's/early 1930's.

In 1925 the GWR produced a report on the Chester Division (presumably for the Board) and here are the pages and track plans relating to Chirk and Black Park.

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Edited by flyingsignalman, 27 September 2017 - 20:19 .

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#18 DLT

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 14:18

Great looking project Jeff.  Actually Ian Johnson has drawn my attention to it (I hadn't seen it) following your mention of his Baldwin motorising article.  He will comment as soon as he can.

 

Do you read Roy Link's "Narrow gauge & Industrial Railway Modelling Review"?  https://narrowgaugea...dustrial.co.uk/  Highly recommended.  There has been a lot about Baldwin modelling over the years, (some of it by me) and about GVT modelling.

 

Cheers, Dave.



#19 Jeff Smith

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 15:11

Dave, thanks for drawing my attention to this, I had not been aware of it.

Although the thread title alludes to there being a layout on the horizon it may end up as a series of connectable dioramas. My On30 thread explains my excursion into an oval layout designed for operating but that bored me, great to build but a monster to own and move. Luckily I was able to sell it so it's back to lightweight small baseboards.
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#20 Jeff Smith

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 16:00

Now having received a pack of goodies from Branchlines I have been looking at the motor g/b setup and am leaning towards using the Multibox to drive the rear drivers without using the extender.

The Mashima 14/26 motor body will form the underside of the boiler. I have cut out the frame slots for the Gibson hornblocks. The suspension system will be to have the rear drivers essentially fixed (hard up on the adjustment screws), the first and second drivers will have a mm or two of up and down movement with the hornblock springs keeping a down force. The bogie will be weight-bearing and form the third leg of the three point suspension.

One problem I hadn't anticipated was the size of the final drive gear, it is 13.5mm dia, with 14mm wheels this makes for very little clearance over pointwork! I might have to skim a little off the gear tips....

I'll include some photos after further progress.

#21 DLT

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 16:55

Hi Jeff, 

That's pretty much how I motorised my second Baldwin: the motor slides into the boiler, with the Multibox in its vertical configuration, on the rear axle.  Never had a problem with the final-drive gear catching on anything!

Here's a couple of photos:

 

3 IMG_5244 small.JPG

 

4 IMG_5253 small.JPG

 

I didnt compensate or spring the drivers, I've never found it necessary using 00 standards.  I did though add pickups to the bogie and lightly spring it both vertically and laterally.  I built the chassis much as it came (having fretted out the bar frames) and added spacing washers behind the driving wheels to take up the slack.  (The GVT example did have widened frames)  As the kit is designed for 16.5, no further modifications are really needed, although a bit of jiggery-pokery is needed to get the valve gear working.  The prototype cylinder block/smokebox saddle was cast in two symmetrical halves, bolted together.  The GVT version was widened by the simple method of inserting a spacer between the two halves.  This can be seen (just!) in the published photos.  In the kit, this is cast in one-piece suitable for 16.5; but it might do with some cosmetic additions.

 

Hope this is useful!

Cheers, Dave.


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#22 Jeff Smith

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 19:06

Extremely, thanks very much Dave.

#23 Jeff Smith

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 14:52

Well, I have now cut metal on the frames and installed the Gibson sprung hornblocks and fretted out some of the more visible half etched areas between the bar frames.  The two halves have been screwed together using the provided spacers blus a couple of 1 mm shims.  This brings the frames out to O-16.5 spacing and (I hope) will just give sufficient gap to get the Multibox between the rear driver hornblocks.  I will have to cut some suitable replacement brass spacers to permanently solder up the frames.

 

I've also made holes for the Gibson plunger pick-ups on the front and centre drivers - unfortunately there isn't room for them for the rear driver due to the gearbox so these will just have to be wipers.

 

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#24 Jeff Smith

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 14:44

An update. Photos to follow when I get home on Sunday.

I assembled the motor and Multibox and it did not fit between the hornblocks. I thinned down the g/b by filing off the projecting final drive bearings. Still not enough so I filed down the inner faces of the rear hornblocks and the bearings. This now just about fits and accommodates a 0.25mm spacer behind each wheel to guard against wheels shorting to the frames. The other two axles were assembled also with 0.25mm spacers. I was concerned that the centre axle would need more side play to negotiate 18" radius track but had forgotten how much wheel play there is in OO...

So far so good. The connecting rods are one piece for the rigid chassis design so had to me modified to two piece. I decided to hinge them on the centre driver crank pins rather than reproduce the prototype rear hinges. I cut the rods in half just behind the rear hinges and used some scrap n/s to create double thickness rear rods with the overlap extensions to the crank pins.

Next on the agenda is the bogie and deciding whether it should be load-bearing or not.
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#25 Jeff Smith

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 02:51

Photos as promised.  Further work has been carried out and the bogie decision made.  The kit is designed for a non-loadbearing bogie attached by a link bar, RTR fashion.  The bogie is now attached to a pivot bolt with the ride height adjusted with a nut.  There is provision for some side movement in the elongated hole.  Also the frames have been cut away for rear wheel clearance.  This then gives the normal three-point compensation using the rigid rear drivers and the bogie pivot.  The centre and front drivers have about one mm up and down movement with light springs holding them down per the Gibson sprung hornblock design.  It seems to be able to negotiate an 18" radius.  It's a good job the frames are made of 1mm brass as they are quite flimsy looking....

 

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