new layot - block detection, how?

[WIMorrison]

I am building a new layout using my existing Lenz kit and I have an 23151 Ethernet interface for PC interaction and control with DCC IP digital point motors controlled using Xpressnet and pushbutton from a mimic panel . I will either use JMRI or Rocrail to undertake automated control at a future date but to make that work I need to implement blocks when I lay the track. I may or may not actually put on block detectors/controllers at this point (depending on the advice here) or I may just create the blocks with them all wired to the leaving the expansion into automated for the future My locos (8) all have Lenz silver mini or gold mini decoders due to the size of the bodies (HOe)

 

I need some bits of advice as whilst I understand the concepts of DCC, block control is new to me and

 

• which block controllers or detectors should I use? Actually is there a difference between them and which should I use?
• what is needed in addition to the detectors/controllers?
• how many blocks should I have?
• where should I place blocks
• how do you stop trains within blocks beside a signal?
• how do I control the signals using block control?
• do I split one rail, or both rails?
• what good reading can you suggest that will help me understand how this works?

The layout is effectively 2 loops that are interconnected and I want to have 2/3 trains running constantly on the top loop (blue) that I can route through reversing loop or down to lower loop (Black) where I can swap manually for another train - hopefully that makes sense

 

Any ideas will be greatly appreciated as I want to build it correctly now for the future, especially as some sections will be under scenery and later alteration will be difficult as I want to put in insulated joints between block sections.

 

Hopefully not to much to ask, and also I hope that the assembled expertise here will solve my queries

 

Many Thanks

 

Iain

Edited August 15, 2017 by WIMorrison

[Nigelcliffe]

I am building a new layout using my existing Lenz kit and I have an 23151 Ethernet interface for PC interaction and control with DCC IP digital point motors controlled using Xpressnet and pushbutton from a mimic panel . I will either use JMRI or Rocrail to undertake automated control at a future date but to make that work I need to implement blocks when I lay the track. I may or may not actually put on block detectors/controllers at this point (depending on the advice here) or I may just create the blocks with them all wired to the leaving the expansion into automated for the future My locos (8) all have Lenz silver mini or gold mini decoders due to the size of the bodies (HOe)

 

I need some bits of advice as whilst I understand the concepts of DCC, block control is new to me and

 

 

which block controllers or detectors should I use? Actually is there a difference between them and which should I use?

Broadly there are two types: those which detect current running to a section of track (which may include several turnouts if you wish), and those which detect at a specific spot location (eg. using a magnet and reed switch, or an IR beam breaking device, or similar).

 

After that, it's what works with the remainder of your hardware. For current detection, there are broadly two technologies; those which tap into the DCC signal and measure voltage drop over some diodes, and those which use current transformer coils to sense current. The latter are slightly more expensive, but probably more sensitive (my current detection coils will detect my finger placed across the track).

 

 

what is needed in addition to the detectors/controllers?

 

A hardware card/board to bring the current detection back to the computer running things. That has to be compatible with your chosen data feedback bus.

 

Not sure what I'd recommend for Lenz, though probably not the Lenz RS bus. I suggest looking into either S88, or possibly the new NMRA LCC standard. Or if into DIY, then a LocoNet based feedback (whilst staying on Lenz for control) could be made to work.

Also in the DIY arena, MERG's CBUS is another possible given your stated software choices, but that option would not be compatible with going to the TrainController (commercial) software package.

 

 

how many blocks should I have?where should I place blocks

 

Depends how you plan to run your layout.

 

 

how do you stop trains within blocks beside a signal?

 

Either by calculating deceleration paths within the software, and thus when the block is entered, the computer can issue the appropriate sequence of slow down and stop commands, or by use of spot detection to determine the exact train position and thus knowing when to stop. (There are features in some other decoders, notably Zimo, which will stop in exact fixed distances, but Lenz' implementation of this feature is, frankly, rubbish )

 

how do I control the signals using block control?

 

In the software, setting rules up. Different packages have different rules. See further information below.

 

do I split one rail, or both rails?

 

Depends on your block detectors. For current sensing coils, just one rail will be needed. For most diode detectors it is one rail also.

 

what good reading can you suggest that will help me understand how this works?

 

For JMRI specifically, and might help with concepts, I wrote a clinic along with Kevin Dickerson on UK signalling with JMRI. It starts from basics and goes through to signalling triggered by track route setting and occupancy of the track.  It doesn't go as far as automated running, but that's a logical step onwards from what was covered.

 

For an overview of the entire area, the four videos of the McKinley Railway (YouTube) are worth a look. Though the setup uses Digitrax and TrainController, the concepts will all be needed. You'll implement it with different hardware and software, but it does cover how a layout with complex automation mixing human and computer control works.

 

 

(edits to cover the formatting which went haywire)

Edited August 15, 2017 by Nigelcliffe

[Dungrange]

As I've not yet chosen a DCC system, I can't advise on the hardware side, but to fully automate such a layout, may require a significant number of detectors, which could come with a significant cost if using proprietary detectors. For example, the Digitrax BDL168 Loconet Occupancy Detector that I've been looking at (but which I don't think is compatible with your Lenz system) costs £135 to monitor just 16 sections (http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/feedback-items/loconet/bdl168-loconet-occupancy-decoder.aspx)- that's at least £9 per block section and that only detects the presence of a train.

 

I'm not looking to automate my own layout but use blocks to lock the signalling and confirm that a route is both set and clear before the signal can be cleared (and once its cleared, none of the points can be changed).  What I hope to achieve is that before I can clear a signal, I have to check that track circuits A, B and C are all unoccupied and points 1, 2, and 3 are all set correctly.  Therefore in terms of placing the track circuit blocks, these have to tie in with what I am trying to achieve.  I don't want to try to drive a train from platform 3 that will clip the front of a train standing in platform 2.  Therefore the boundary between the track circuit that I want to drive across and the track circuit for platform 2 has to be sufficiently far from the heel of the turnout to ensure that it 'proves' that the path is clear.  In prototype signalling practise, this point seems to be known as the clearance point.  Effectively measure back from the point that two vehicles would just not touch, both the overhang from the front of a train to the leading axle (which is what is being detected) and add an appropriate safety clearance distance.

 

The same principle should apply to automation, insofar as you don't want your PC software to drive a train into another train and therefore your PC will require the same information.  You will therefore have to think about what you may automate and what information the PC software will require (with regards the positions of trains).  For sections of track away from junctions, I'd say your blocks should be defined by your signal positions, just like on the real railway.  You will have a signal set at yellow (caution) and a track circuit joint just beyond this signal.  Once the train has passed the signal and entered the block, you need to set the automation up so that the train stops before you reach the signal set at red (stop), with the end of that track circuit being just beyond the signal (but either at or before you get to the clearance point if there is a junction).

 

For the control of the signals, I'm currently looking at the SIGM20 Signal controller fro Sig-na-trak (https://www.signatrak.co.uk/products/layout-automation-and-accessory-control/sigm20-signal-controller) to confirm that it achieves what I want to achieve, but as this seems to use Loconet, again, I don't think it will work with Lenz.  However for £54 this only automates the signal sequences and not the trains.  That is, the yellow signal will turn red as soon as the track circuit in front of it becomes occupied but you'd require other software to actually cause the train to brake.

 

I'll follow this thread, but doubt I can contribute anything more.

[Alan Kettlewell]

If you're heading to or live near North Yorkshire, you'd be very welcome to pop in and look at my layout under construction. (Link to my layout thread is in the footer below). I've done several automated layouts and would be happy to demonstrate how I do it. There are a few short videos of trains running under automatic control in the thread and I also have these videos on my You Tube site.

 

Good luck with your project.

 

Cheers ... Alan

[WIMorrison]

Alan,

 

How I wish that I were near you to come and visit then steal your knowledge on this subject. I have managed to find nothing online describing how it works, how to set it up or how to operate and I am amazed that there is so little information - perhaps I am looking in the wrong places. However I would suggest that the number of responses here indicate the level of knowledge (or interest?) that there is in the logical extension of DCC.

 

I think that what I want for what I am planning are the LDT RS8 units - or a complete change of system to a Roco Z21 which would appear to be one of the most fully featured systems now, though pricey.

 

I will check out your thread, but if you know of some books or online resources that explain how this works in DCC please let me know.

 

Many thanks

 

Iain

[Alan Kettlewell]

Hi Iain,

 

Some of these links might help:

 

http://www.freiwald.com/software/58/Manual.pdf

Try Quick Start Step 4 on page 25 - gives an overview of how blocks can be set up.  You'll need to ignore the references and screenshots of Train Controller.

 

I use these feedback modules form Digikeijs - good value as they have 16 inputs:

https://www.digikeijs.com/dr4088opto-16-channel-feedback-module-s88n.html

There's a link on that page to the manual which may help to see how they are fitted.

 

Here's a shot of part of my layout in Train Controller software. 

 

 

You'll see how I've arranged my blocks, mainly in station platforms, storage yards and before junctions.  I use reed switches embedded in the track which are operated by small magnets fitted to the underside of each loco.  When triggered, the reed switch feeds back to the Digikeijs feedback module and then back to the software - the block turns pink when occupied.  Alternatively the feedback could be sent to a control panel if you're not using software.  Note that no block contains turnouts - this is deliberate so the tail end of a train doesn't foul the turnout or prevent another train entering an adjacent block.

 

You can watch some of my videos of automatic control in my layout thread, or here:

 

 

 

I hope this helps a bit - it's a difficult topic to write about so please come back if you have any questions.

 

Cheers ... Alan

 

 

[melmerby]

 

Not sure what I'd recommend for Lenz, though probably not the Lenz RS bus.

Hi Nigel

Why do you make that statement?

I've now got about 80+ blocks detected with LDT RS-8s on the RS bus. I don't find a problem with it.

 

Keith

[Nigelcliffe]

Hi Nigel

Why do you make that statement?

I've now got about 80+ blocks detected with LDT RS-8s on the RS bus. I don't find a problem with it.

 

Keith

 

Because I can't make sense of Lenz RS bus from the documentation (both Lenz and third-party).   If you've got it working with that number of blocks, then it clearly works OK. 

 

 

 

- Nigel

[melmerby]

Because I can't make sense of Lenz RS bus from the documentation (both Lenz and third-party).   If you've got it working with that number of blocks, then it clearly works OK. 

 

 

 

- Nigel

I don't try and figure out how it works but it does so I'm happy.

 

Alan,

 

I think that what I want for what I am planning are the LDT RS8 units - or a complete change of system to a Roco Z21 which would appear to be one of the most fully featured systems now, though pricey.

 

 

Many thanks

 

Iain

Another alternative is a Digikeijs DR5000 (around £150):

https://www.digikeijs.com/dr5000-adj-dcc-multi-bus-central.html

 

You can link up virtually anything to it as it is multi-protocol

It also combines two interfaces (Lenz & Loconet) through one USB connection so software such as TrainController sees it as two seperate systems.

 

At present I have a Lenz LH100 system controlling the trains and detecting the blocks and the DR5000 is just operating the points using the Loconet protocol but I do intend to re-organise the set up as I also have two LDT boosters so as I can split the layout into several districts as Alan has done with his extensive layout.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[WIMorrison]

Alan,

 

Excuse my tardiness in replying to your extremely helpful post - marital orders have dictated that I have to complete a couple of challenges in the house and have them ready for occupation by October and that "toys" are not on the list of priorities :;

 

That said, I am allowed to read stuff when in bed!

 

I now see that you have the Z21 and I am even more convinced that this is the route I will go next year. Financially it will not cost anymore that buying the Digikeijs box that integrates all the busses, as I can sell the Lenz and the difference would be the cost of the Digikeijs box - the Z21 is way more flexible as it also provides an excellent iPad app.

 

Going this route would give me all the busses, especially Loconet which is where many bits seem to reside, though I can also play with the LDT RS kit before hand to get experience - I am confused by the RS bus though as one person will say it is awful, and yet the next person will say they have no issues and it works for them - exactly the same as has happened here - confusing or what?

 

I will spend some time going over the references, though I may take the Traincontroller stuff with care - that is not cheap and superbly good - but probably way above my skills or abilities.

 

Thanks again

 

Iain

Edited August 31, 2017 by WIMorrison

[Alan Kettlewell]

Hi Iain,

 

I had the Lenz 100 set for about 12 years and found it did everything I wanted at the time. I recently switched to the Roco Z21 as it is more modern and I particularly wanted wireless control, which it does superbly. I'm very glad I chose the Z21 and find it works flawlessly with my mixture of Lenz LS150 point modules on the RS bus and the Digikiejs feedback encoders. When you get time away from your household challenges () and read through my thread, you'll see some of these being set up. I haven't found it necessary to use the Loconet and I can't comment on the LDT RS items as I haven't used these, but I've read positive stories from others on here who swear by them.

 

Train Controller is a very big outlay - but it's marvellous and the best there is IMO - but I'm biased because I love it! I hope the link above to the section in the Train Controller manual will give you a good overview of how the block system works and maybe round out your knowledge a bit - I think that was your original query. Just ignore the software references but do read the overview and explanation. Combine that with the diagrammes of block sections in that chapter, and maybe my diagrammes, and I think you'll be ready to make your choices as you seem to be getting a bit more clear on what hardware you want.

 

I had a look at your track plan with a view to working out how I would arrange the blocks but it was a bit difficult as I don't know the direction of trains around your circuits. I can comment though that block sections can of course be set up so they're bi-directional - as on the real thing. I have some bi-directional blocks on my layout and I handle both directions with a single reed switch. The Train Controller manual shows examples of this plus how to set up with more than one contact. Some don't recommend using a single contact but it works fine for my needs. However mine has no cuts in the track and relies on contacts (reed switches), if you're going to do isolated sections then I'm not sure how that works in a bi-directional block. More reading for you to do .

 

It's a bit of a learning curve and understandable to want to know as much as possible before making those decisions on how to go about it and what to buy. Apologies for the philosophy - not really my strong point ..lol.

 

Anyway, I've said before this is just one way to do it, there are others. But by all means fire away with any questions and I'll help out if I can.

 

Cheers ... Alan

[melmerby]

Alan,

 

 

I now see that you have the Z21 and I am even more convinced that this is the route I will go next year. Financially it will not cost anymore that buying the Digikeijs box that integrates all the busses, as I can sell the Lenz and the difference would be the cost of the Digikeijs box - the Z21 is way more flexible as it also provides an excellent iPad app.

 

 

Iain

Not quite sure why you say that as there is little to choose in the way of connections and the DR5000 has wi-fi and will work with wi-fi throttles.

Personally I dont like using touch screens as they lack the precision of a normal electro-mechanical throttle.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[DJMR]

A great discussion! Myself I am going to use Digitrax systems due to the loconet and home DIY projects with Arduino.

 

Cost is always a pain, many systems I find either cost a lot for a solution or cost less but you need more to complete the solution. BDL168 is a good single board for detecting 16 sections of track and with the addition of loconet it helps better manage communication between modules.

 

Personally I suggest Train Controller for software, yes JMRI is free but it requires an extreme amount of setup whereas JMRI has a more friendly but advanced setup, although it would depend on your appetite on costs.

 

Some videos you can check out;

 

Rudy gives great tutorials on how to use Train Controller; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8z5SHQhi9veBOAaFPZffNA

 

Rudy also explains how detection works with different methods, current, reed switch, etc... As with reed switching there are critical elements to be aware of to show a "block" is occupied or not.

 

Vikas in India uses Digitrax with a mix of other systems for his incredible layout; https://youtu.be/leqbgI-47Rk

 

Even being technically minded myself still sometimes find the instructions are mind boggling but the above videos should help.

 

Cheers

Edited September 1, 2017 by desjrailway

[Alan Kettlewell]

A great discussion! Myself I am going to use Digitrax systems due to the loconet and home DIY projects with Arduino.

 

Cost is always a pain, many systems I find either cost a lot for a solution or cost less but you need more to complete the solution. BDL168 is a good single board for detecting 16 sections of track and with the addition of loconet it helps better manage communication between modules.

 

Personally I suggest Train Controller for software, yes JMRI is free but it requires an extreme amount of setup whereas JMRI has a more friendly but advanced setup, although it would depend on your appetite on costs.

 

Some videos you can check out;

 

Rudy gives great tutorials on how to use Train Controller; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8z5SHQhi9veBOAaFPZffNA

 

Rudy also explains how detection works with different methods, current, reed switch, etc... As with reed switching there are critical elements to be aware of to show a "block" is occupied or not.

 

Vikas in India uses Digitrax with a mix of other systems for his incredible layout;

 

Even being technically minded myself still sometimes find the instructions are mind boggling but the above videos should help.

 

Cheers

 

I've seen all of Rudy's great videos they're very informative, and I think Vikas's video is excellent - thanks for posting that link.  Train Controller is one of the best things I've bought for my layout and wouldn't do without it now.

 

Cheers ...Alan

[WIMorrison]

Not quite sure why you say that as there is little to choose in the way of connections and the DR5000 has wi-fi and will work with wi-fi throttles.

Personally I dont like using touch screens as they lack the precision of a normal electro-mechanical throttle.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

Keith

 

I don't dispute the functionality of the DR5000, what I am saying is that for the same effective amount I can get a Z21 which provides me more 'out of the box' and potentially better future proofing. It also interfaces easily with RocRail which is my favoured programme (actually I would prefer TrainsController but that isn't in the budget!)

 

I love touchscreen control and had previously looked at the Roco app, definitely the best out there today and It provides the initial functionality from day one - loco control, accessory control, layout control, route setting - and all with easy pictorial control using pictures of the track and locos.

 

The ability to use all the busses means I can get whatever I want and it will work - there are some super extensions available for loconet, some for s88 and some for Xpressnet - I can mix and match with ease - and all from the same simple interface.

 

If there was a financial advantage to using the DR5000 I would take another look, but the sums don't add up as the cost for it is the same (assuming I can sell the LH100) that the Z21 is - and unlike Lenz it is being updated regularly.

Edited September 1, 2017 by WIMorrison

[DJMR]

I've seen all of Rudy's great videos they're very informative, and I think Vikas's video is excellent - thanks for posting that link. Train Controller is one of the best things I've bought for my layout and wouldn't do without it now.

 

Cheers ...Alan

Love the video you posted here, massive layout, I will check out your channel

 

Cheers

 

 

Des

[Junctionmad]

Controlling DCC equipped locos via simple block detection is quite involved. The missing ingredient is you need to know the DCC address of the loco that's currently in the block section. Otherwise you can't control it.

 

Railcom provides that missing link , but is a complex system that's not fully developed

 

The alternative is " state " based full layout automation, like jmri etc. this is where the complete " state " of the layout is maintained by the software , so in theory it knows the train in the block section

 

Personally , I don't like overall full automation systems as I feel it removes certain " play " value , associated with manual control

 

Note that most block detection just locates the loco, which can prove problematic when propelling stock. The easiest detection for DCC is current detection imho. IR is problematic based on my own tests

[DJMR]

Controlling DCC equipped locos via simple block detection is quite involved. The missing ingredient is you need to know the DCC address of the loco that's currently in the block section. Otherwise you can't control it.

 

Railcom provides that missing link , but is a complex system that's not fully developed

 

The alternative is " state " based full layout automation, like jmri etc. this is where the complete " state " of the layout is maintained by the software , so in theory it knows the train in the block section

 

Personally , I don't like overall full automation systems as I feel it removes certain " play " value , associated with manual control

 

Note that most block detection just locates the loco, which can prove problematic when propelling stock. The easiest detection for DCC is current detection imho. IR is problematic based on my own tests

Very true, and one of the main elements to be aware of when going into this area of DCC.

 

Although I haven't yet practically done this, but in theory Train Controller allows you manual operation as well as automated, I have seen this been done too.

 

Personally I think it adds more interest, whereas when manually operating trains can lessen the diversity of operation, for example train 1 you manually operate while the software manages train 2 shunts in the goods yard, train 3 does passenger line, train 4 does frieghtliner and so on. It also would manage the automation and prototypical signalling along with much more.

 

It all depends on the size of your layout, appetite and some programming knowledge (but that's why we do Model Railway to learn and gain new skills and abilities)... As I would always say, it's not everyone's cup of tea! Each to our own

 

Cheers

 

Des

[Alan Kettlewell]

I can confirm that Train Controller allows either full automation or you can have it control some schedules whilst you manually control other parts.  When controlling manually you have to obey the signals!  

 

Cheers ... Alan 

[melmerby]

I can confirm that Train Controller allows either full automation or you can have it control some schedules whilst you manually control other parts.  When controlling manually you have to obey the signals!  

 

Cheers ... Alan 

You have to be aware of the amount of feedback between TC and the DCC system when using the manual handset.

Lenz does not provide this info so you lose train tracking when using a Lenz handset as a throttle with TC. Several other systems do provide this two way info exchange.

 

I'm currently experimenting with a combination of the Lenz 100 and the DR5000 to find the best mix.

I looked at buying a Z21 but as I have TC gold it offered no advantage over cheaper options.

 

Keith

Edited September 1, 2017 by melmerby

[RFS]

Lenz does not provide this info so you lose train tracking when using a Lenz handset as a throttle with TC. Several other systems do provide this two way info exchange.

 

 

When Lenz eventually get round to bring out the LZV200 with firmware version 4.0, then this will be fixed.  Meanwhile if you assign one loco to the digital system via TC, it will then be tracked if you control it via the handset. 

[Junctionmad]

I can confirm that Train Controller allows either full automation or you can have it control some schedules whilst you manually control other parts.  When controlling manually you have to obey the signals!  

 

Cheers ... Alan

 

Doesn't it require knowledge of the manual speed settings to maintain its " state " in that case and I understand this can be problematic with certain DCC controllers

[Junctionmad]

Very true, and one of the main elements to be aware of when going into this area of DCC.

Although I haven't yet practically done this, but in theory Train Controller allows you manual operation as well as automated, I have seen this been done too.

Personally I think it adds more interest, whereas when manually operating trains can lessen the diversity of operation, for example train 1 you manually operate while the software manages train 2 shunts in the goods yard, train 3 does passenger line, train 4 does frieghtliner and so on. It also would manage the automation and prototypical signalling along with much more.

It all depends on the size of your layout, appetite and some programming knowledge (but that's why we do Model Railway to learn and gain new skills and abilities)... As I would always say, it's not everyone's cup of tea! Each to our own

Cheers

Des

Agreed , in my case I like traditional manual control, but equally im building a complex prototypical layout which is a station with a 5 single line junction arrangement and some " local " automation is necessary to maintain the ability to run the layout using one operator .

 

In my case railcom will be used to implement signal and platform automated stop and start solutions , allowing me to shunt and "fiddle about" , manually, while , like u suggest , main line trains run autonomously

 

The system requires no overall " state " , so any random sequence can be controlled, a simple sequenced dispatch from the fiddle yard is all that is required to generate multiple trains runnng through the station ( and optionally stopping etc )

Edited September 1, 2017 by Junctionmad

[Alan Kettlewell]

Doesn't it require knowledge of the manual speed settings to maintain its " state " in that case and I understand this can be problematic with certain DCC controllers

Not really as long as the block diagramme is set up correctly and the position and direction of the loco is known when you start it. 'Train Tracking' needs to be turned on - which it is by default anyway. Once you start to drive the loco manually the system tracks it and as it reaches the next block, triggering the detection device, it's recognised at that location and assigned to that block.

 

For interest, here's what the manual says about it:

 

• Train tracking is based on the main block diagram of the Visual Dispatcher and fol- lows the specified links between the blocks. The tracking of manually operated trains, such as those trains that you control with the throttle of your digital system, is only possible, if you create an appropriate main block diagram, that contains the proper links between your blocks.

 

Cheers ... Alan

[DJMR]

While I remember Vikas has a very informative blog about his layout, operations and much more, check it out;

 

http://vikaschander.com/abendstern-nebenbahn-overview/

 

Cheers

 

Des