new layot - block detection, how?

[melmerby]

When Lenz eventually get round to bring out the LZV200 with firmware version 4.0, then this will be fixed.

By then I will be past caring!

 

The web page for the Version 4.0 firmware is dated 2011 (like most pages!) and "coming soon", obviously Lenz's idea of coming soon and mine are a bit different

Keith

Edited September 1, 2017 by melmerby

[WIMorrison]

While I remember Vikas has a very informative blog about his layout, operations and much more, check it out;

 

http://vikaschander.com/abendstern-nebenbahn-overview/

 

Cheers

 

Des

What a stunning layout - and the wiring of the DCC modules deserves a medal on its own!

 

I now need to think about the rats nest that I had on the last layout and ensure that I meet this high standard

[melmerby]

What a stunning layout - and the wiring of the DCC modules deserves a medal on its own!

All very neat and the opposite of what is really wanted!

The occupancy modules should be close to the track they are feeding, not all grouped together like that.

As should any point decoders.

 

I have a track bus, a 16v AC bus and a feedback bus running around under the layout and at various intervals they feed off to the different occupancy modules.

That way the total wiring is much less with only a track bus, feedback bus and 16v feed coming back to the central DCC unit area and the 16v AC supply.

(I also have a seperate DCC accessory bus as well to feed the point controllers and other static accessories)

 

It's not neat but functional and probably easier to fault find on!

 

Keith

Edited September 1, 2017 by melmerby

[DJMR]

Again it comes down to your personal preference and needs. Like Vikas I will be doing the Power Districts and neat boards (well draws) to house all my boards and power. Two main things to remember is practical and organisation when it comes to wiring.

 

Any electrical boards or power systems under something can lead to problems in troubleshooting, replacement and management, a draw or wall makes it more manageable, upgradeable and easier to troubleshoot! Plus any wiring should be labelled and if possible a drawing showing what it does, where it goes, etc... Again spend the time now making it neat and organised and it will save many hours or longer scratching your head trying to work out why or how you did it.

 

Another consideration is power districts, basically splitting up your layout to manageable sections to better fault find but it also means if one district goes dead the others won't, something that is suggested by Digitrax in their manuals. And not that costly if you want a simple setup.

 

Hopefully soon I will be showing that on my YouTube Channel (pardon the bit of promotion there)

 

 

Des

[melmerby]

Again it comes down to your personal preference and needs. Like Vikas I will be doing the Power Districts and neat boards (well draws) to house all my boards and power. Two main things to remember is practical and organisation when it comes to wiring.

 

Any electrical boards or power systems under something can lead to problems in troubleshooting, replacement and management, a draw or wall makes it more manageable, upgradeable and easier to troubleshoot! Plus any wiring should be labelled and if possible a drawing showing what it does, where it goes, etc... Again spend the time now making it neat and organised and it will save many hours or longer scratching your head trying to work out why or how you did it.

 

 

Des

The problem with all those bunched cables is possible cross-talk and interference with other circuitry.

Neatness just for neatness sake is not necessarily good practice, you have to view the practical side of what's required.

You don't have all your house light switches in a cupboard somewhere with separate wires out to each light do you?

 

I have modified my trackwork a few times due to the original plan not working in practice and all that was required was a slight re-arrangement of wiring around that area. Having a centralised set up would have meant much re-wiring back to the start.

My different circuits are well separated and all power feeds to trackwork are twisted & separate (as recommended)

(all track is fed with two wires, all turnouts are insulated on both rails, there is no common at track level although ultimately one side is commoned at the point of supply.

 

With 10 block modules and about a dozen various point decoders (and two autoreverse units) the amount of wire emanating from a central point would have been mind boggling!

(I reckon about 240 separate wires)

 

 

Keith

[DJMR]

I think it more of a network infrastructure, i.e. a PoE Setup, again you wouldn't have a PoE Switch per PoE Device (i.e. Camera, WiFi, VoiP Phones, etc) would you? 

 

But lets not get into tit for tat, we all have our preferred methods and setups, some more complicated than others and after all it is the individual putting this together so it must suit them (a club environment may need a better arrangement). There isn't really a right or wrong way other than the fundamentals; good wiring, connections and basic electrical theory (ohms law, etc), heck I have seen EXTREME wiring so much so that if you laid it out it could circle the earth twice! 

 

Whatever floats your boat because it's you that has to bail it out if it starts sinking 

 

Cheers

Edited September 2, 2017 by DJMR

[melmerby]

I was just pointing out what's best from an electrical point of view.

I'll admit mine is not neat at all and could even, using the method I have used, be far better implemented.

 

If you want accessibility and distributed modules the ideal would be having them on a facia board around the layout. 

They could be mounted approximately opposite to where the feed wires need to go and the wiring just running from them under the baseboard to the appropriate piece of trackwork.

The busses for the various circuits would just run around the edge (mine do mostly, but on the inside of the facia) to connect to the modules

Suitable covers could protect the various modules and wiring from damage.

 

Keith

[WIMorrison]

I always find that going into a computer room or data centre where the cables are all neatly bundled up is so much more pleasant than one where the cables have simply been taken from point to point with the resultant maintenance nightmare that ensues when trying to find or trace the one faulty cable. Strangely enough there are also fewer faults in tidy well managed cable runs than spaghetti piles.

 

On the subject of cross talk I have installed cable bundles with upwards of 50 CAT6 cables in the bundle which means 200 twisted pairs or 400 wires in each and I have never had any cross talk interference - that is why twisted pairs are used

 

If I can wire a comms room with several thousand cables, keeping them neat and all properly labelled then I don't see an issue in doing the same with DCC components as all they are doing is using the same network cables with a slightly different protocol.

 

Just saying that there are other ways to look at this

Edited September 2, 2017 by WIMorrison

[Alan Kettlewell]

It's always interesting to see how we modellers use different ways. This is a bit off topic (sorry Iain) but my wiring is of the spaghetti variety.. Lol. It'll win no prizes at all.

 

I group my turnout and feedback modules on boards adjacent to the where the pointwork is grouped. Pictures are better - this group is adjacent to the west end of the station and feeds the turnouts there and the west end of the storage yards on level 2 and 3:

 

..and the east end:

 

..over on the other side of the layout - not many turnouts and reed switches on this side:

 

It all feeds back to this old drawer unit I scrounged. The LEDs are for each power district and one for the programming track:

 

In the top drawer are the Z21, router and boosters:

 

And in the next drawer are the booster power supplies and the transformer for the accessory power:

 

All the 'busses' are attached to connector strips on the rear of the drawer unit so the whole layout could be disconnected in a few minutes. I've cut out large gaps in the sides of the unit to prevent any build up of heat.

 

This is a bit like another thread 'Show us yer wiring' elsewhere on here, but I'm not showing you mine ..lol. Again, sorry Iain for hijacking your thread.

 

Cheers ...Alan

Edited September 2, 2017 by Alan Kettlewell

[melmerby]

I always find that going into a computer room or data centre where the cables are all neatly bundled up is so much more pleasant than one where the cables have simply been taken from point to point with the resultant maintenance nightmare that ensues when trying to find or trace the one faulty cable. Strangely enough there are also fewer faults in tidy well managed cable runs than spaghetti piles.

 

On the subject of cross talk I have installed cable bundles with upwards of 50 CAT6 cables in the bundle which means 200 twisted pairs or 400 wires in each and I have never had any cross talk interference - that is why twisted pairs are used

 

If I can wire a comms room with several thousand cables, keeping them neat and all properly labelled then I don't see an issue in doing the same with DCC components as all they are doing is using the same network cables with a slightly different protocol.

 

Just saying that there are other ways to look at this

I'm not suggesting point to point, I'm suggesting running common cables for each signal type around the layout and then tee-ing off to the various modules. It makes for very easy fault finding and keeps the wiring bundles (which is where fault finding gets difficult) to a minimum. The ones on the posted link have all sorts of signals goung in all directions in common bundles. IMHO that's a nightmare.

 

Cat 6 data cables are designed to be run together where all signals are of a similar type with twisted feeds, the various DCC signals are not. There are high current ones and feedback ones and DC circuits. Keeping these apart is good practice.

BTW I did say the wires should be twisted.

 

You don't run AC mains feeds in the same bundle as signal feeds however "neat" it may look.

 

Alan's system above is the sort of wiring layout I am on about, that is much better for fault finding and cuts down on the cable runs dramatically.

 

Keith

[WIMorrison]

Alan

 

I am with you here - what you are doing is what I would call edge switches which are placed near to the consumer of the services - in this case the points are the consumers and the Z21 data processing server and other parts would be the core switches

 

And as for signal confusion, data networks carry all sorts of stuff encapsulated in the IP packets and they don't get confused - even when diverse routing is implemented

[Alan Kettlewell]

Alan

I am with you here - what you are doing is what I would call edge switches which are placed near to the consumer of the services - in this case the points are the consumers and the Z21 data processing server and other parts would be the core switches

And as for signal confusion, data networks carry all sorts of stuff encapsulated in the IP packets and they don't get confused - even when diverse routing is implemented

Grouping the modules near the turnouts/feedback detectors (reed switches in my case) makes sense to me - shorter wiring. Imagine a layout say 100 ft long and running every wire back to a single board!

 

As for bus wires, as a precaution against possible cross talk, I run the different busses at least a foot apart from each other - and use twisted wires. I do this because I've read elsewhere that it's advisable, but also it's easier to see what's attached to what when messing around under the boards.

[DJMR]

Grouping the modules near the turnouts/feedback detectors (reed switches in my case) makes sense to me - shorter wiring. Imagine a layout say 100 ft long and running every wire back to a single board!

 

As for bus wires, as a precaution against possible cross talk, I run the different busses at least a foot apart from each other - and use twisted wires. I do this because I've read elsewhere that it's advisable, but also it's easier to see what's attached to what when messing around under the boards.

 

I know of too many layouts with extreme wiring, enough to even make me tearful.

 

Most of mine will be close-ish proximity, especially my fiddle yard, as I am doing draws to save me crawling to gain access to boards, etc. Not far off from doing it so will post pictures in a few weeks for interest

 

Main layout will be a bit different.

 

Love the photos and your layout, spacious! 

 

Cheers

 

 

Des

[Alan Kettlewell]

I know what you mean about crawling under the boards, gets harder as you get older ..lol.

 

I found one of these cheap in Argos on EBay. It just fits in between the supports under the layout so I can get from one end to the other with ease. Well worth the £20. Just getting up off it is the hard part!

 

 

Cheers .. Alan

[DJMR]

I know what you mean about crawling under the boards, gets harder as you get older ..lol.

 

I found one of these cheap in Argos on EBay. It just fits in between the supports under the layout so I can get from one end to the other with ease. Well worth the £20. Just getting up off it is the hard part!

 

image.jpeg

 

Cheers .. Alan

 

Thankfully I'm not that old (yet) but the tight spaces and crawling doesn't help at all ha!

 

I have seen those and may become a purchase but then I have carpet in my layout room so may not move as smoothly.

 

Cheers

 

Des

[melmerby]

I know what you mean about crawling under the boards, gets harder as you get older ..lol.

 

I found one of these cheap in Argos on EBay. It just fits in between the supports under the layout so I can get from one end to the other with ease. Well worth the £20. Just getting up off it is the hard part!

 

image.jpeg

 

Cheers .. Alan

Unfortunately Argos/ebay don't have that any more, their cheapest is this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Foldaway-Car-Creeper-/362052010044

 

Amazon still do some, however they are £47.77:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/CLARKE-CREEPER-1030x660x110mm-ADJUST-HEAD/dp/B007JC9882/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1504428401&sr=8-20&keywords=car+creeper

 

Keith

Edited September 3, 2017 by melmerby

[Alan Kettlewell]

One here:

 

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cmc36-car-creeper/?da=1&TC=GS-020110035&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI37DB9dGI1gIVCrHtCh3SMgjBEAQYAiABEgJbhvD_BwE

 

But that one hasn't got the lift up section to support your back.  The better one is £36 from the same shop ..

 

Cheers .. Alan

Edited September 3, 2017 by Alan Kettlewell

[WIMorrison]

Well folks, no progress on the track or block detection but I am now the proud owner of a Roco Z21

 

Found one for well below retail price and have snapped it up - time to put the Lenz kit up for sale now

[melmerby]

Well folks, no progress on the track or block detection but I am now the proud owner of a Roco Z21

 

Found one for well below retail price and have snapped it up - time to put the Lenz kit up for sale now

Why not keep it and use two systems?

 

Keith

[WIMorrison]

Because when the wife finds out I will need the money to pacify her!

 

More seriously, I cannot see the need for 2 systems. The Z21 provides everything that the LH100 does, plus a lot more and I have an old Roco Multimaus that I can plug into the Z21 should I feel the need for a physical controller - I bought that years ago because I don't like the len buttons, though they are a lot easier than the Digitrax but neither is as easy as a touch screen that can have everything.

 

I will also be making a mimic panel for the points using the capabilities of the DCC Concpets Cobalt motors that I am using on this layout rather than the PL10 that I have used before - more expensive but so much better.

[Alan Kettlewell]

I'm sure you'll find the Z21 great. Don't know if you know but you can get a Roco wireless handset now - about £85. I added one to my set up a few months ago and find it handy.

 

Cheers ... Alan

[Alan Kettlewell]

I will also be making a mimic panel for the points using the capabilities of the DCC Concpets Cobalt motors that I am using on this layout rather than the PL10 that I have used before - more expensive but so much better.

Glad you're not using the PL10s - I had a lot of problems with them not firing when they should - a disaster when running things automatically. I sacked them and use Tortoises now but I've read good things about the Cobalts too .

 

Cheers .. Alan

[WIMorrison]

The PL10 are hopeless and the switch you stick on to change the frog is totally unreliable therefore I needed something better. I looked at the tortoise but a video on YouTube swing me to the Cobalts when I realised a mimic panel with LED indicating direction setting controlled by a single push button for each point was possible and that I would still have spare changeover switch - even after switching frog polarity - swung it for me.

 

Costwise buying them in bulk brought the price down to the same as tortoise plus the decoder and with (I believe) more potential capability, though I have yet to prove the enhanced capabilities:)

 

Just need to get on with the household chores then I get onto the fun times

[DJMR]

Glad you were able to find a controller that suits you, plus a cheaper price. 

 

But turnout motors or seeps are a pain for me, noise from the motorised versions bother me and the seep versions are like a firing range, I am yet to find a turnout motor that doesn't emit noise and aren't silly priced for a servo and some plastic box. I think I will have to set myself a task to create something more suitable, I would like the prototypical movement but with no noise, this will be fun! 

 

How do you find the noise on the Cobalt or Tortoise?

 

Cheers

 

 

Des

[Junctionmad]

I would like to add that Im firmly in the distributed camp.  IN my case ( using MERG CBUS) the only wars between baseboards are 12vDC , DCC and can bus , all modules are close to their respective  operational area and mounted on the side of the baseboard, rather then underneath