DJLC - Echo's Entry

[Echo]

Further refinement of the design has taken place and I am now happy enough to build it. That doesn't rule out further changes, of course!

 

This shows the scenic area displayed over a map. All of the vertical track in the lower half of the diagram would be underground.

 

 

and this is the overall plan, without the map.

 

 

The overall size is around 2ft wide and 1 metre deep - necessary to hide trains and trams outside the scenic part of the layout in all 4 directions.  A reasonably wide frontage would allow the display of photos etc and an explanation of how the funicular was operated. Trams would be serviced by traversers and the line to the main station by a cassette system. The obligatory turnout is on the tramway.

 

Here's the photos again just to complete the picture...

 

 

[Echo]

A posher diagram

 

 

I am desperately trying to think of a silly French-sounding name for the layout with little success. 'Pôtes Noudelles' is about the best I can think of so far.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Echo

[nick_bastable]

colline escarpée ?

 

Nick

[Echo]

Thanks for the suggestion, Nick. Unfortunately, my ideal name for the layout needs to be very silly indeed.

 

Meanwhile I have been experimenting with stock and thread to make sure that the rope-worked incline will work reliably. The gradient needs to be around 1 in 8. Even with very lightweight stock, this seems to work well. I shall motorise the winding mechanism. I have a few cheap motors with high gearing that I bought for experimental purposes. I will next find out which ones work best, or whether I need another solution. The two tracks will have to work independently, so I shall need 2 mechanisms. There would be times when only one track was in use. Even with 2 tracks in use, there would be a time delay after the first train reached the bottom of my gradient before the second train begins the ascent, as my track is far shorter than the real thing. The real distance from top to bottom was 1,482 metres, or around 10 metres in 2mm scale. There was a halfway station where trains stopped and passed. To scale, that would be around 2.5 metres below the end of my track.

[Echo]

I bought a couple of cheap controllers on eBay last year and at last I seem to have found a use for them. In combination with a cheap motor/gearbox combination from eBay and an old, spare 5v transformer they seem ideal for my incline. I managed to get the output shaft on the gearbox to turn almost imperceptibly.

 

 

I still have to make sure that the motor has enough torque at low speed to pull a train uphill - but I need the incline and one of the trains before I can do that to my complete satisfaction. I have other motors to try if necessary.

 

Building the incline is next on the agenda.

 

Today I also received a couple of postcards I bought on eBay from abroad. One of them shows the hotel and the funicular station entrance from a new angle. The image was in one corner of the postcard, so very small. Nevertheless, some of the detail will be very useful.

 

[Echo]

Slow progress over the last week or so, with lots of thinking rather than doing! The main issue has been how to make the double track with a common centre rail for the funicular. The idea I finally came up with was to use flat-bottomed rail in the Easitrac 'wooden' f/b track bases, with every other sleeper shortened, like this...

 

 

My initial impression is that this is going to work OK - though I will need to be a little more precise about how much I trim the sleepers in the visible section, to minimise filling the gaps afterwards.

 

Thinking here is that a lot of this track will be underground and difficult or impossible to access once the roadway has been modelled over it. The plastic track bases will allow the rail to expand and contract with changing temperatures. Soldered construction would run the risk of joints breaking and track getting out of gauge over time. I have some metre-long rail from C&L which fits the track bases, so I can have continuous rails from top to bottom with no joints - at least on the two outside rails. I still have to suss out how to do the bit where the centre rail splits in two for the bottom section of the incline. I shall experiment with that over the next few days.

 

Here is a photo of the top of the real incline, showing how everything levels out. I won't be modelling this bit.

 

Edited October 7, 2017 by Echo

[Echo]

Work on the funicular continues. I have now constructed a trackbed and the bifurcation section of the track.

 

Firstly, the trackbed. This needs to be more or less self-supporting so I can lay the track and add functional bits before I add it to a baseboard and start constructing scenery over and around it. The DJLC allows me to try a few experimental ideas. This one was to try a bed of styrofoam sheet with plywood stuck on top. I had some 25mm styrofoam sheets, so I cut a piece 200mm wide. I then stuck some 6mm ply on one side. I used quick drying wood adhesive. I dampened the top side of the ply, to try and even out any expansion due to moisture on both top and bottom. I carefully turned the assembly upside down after putting the ply in place. I then put this on a flat worktop with weights to hold it flat overnight. Amazingly, it worked! The trackbed is both flat and strong.

 

I then glued the track templates in place. I had printed these on thin A4 sheets of paper. I used my normal method of lashings of contact adhesive on both surfaces. I buy tins rather than tubes of adhesive for this. Far better value and much easier to use. Here is the finished item:-

 

 

For the trackwork, the only difficult bit is the bifurcation where the track splits from 3 to 4 rail. This will be invisible to spectators, so doesn't have to look really neat. It is however in an area of the layout where access will be difficult, so the transition has to be as smooth as possible. I decided to file away half of each rail at the joint with a curved taper to allow a nice, strong vee. Each rail was soldered in turn to a scrap piece of PCB. The rail had previously been roughly curved by hand and then clipped to a 36 inch Tracksetta to make a smooth 36" curve - or thereabouts. I then filed a straight section out of each rail and the underlying PCB to produce the taper. For one rail, this was at one end. The other rail had the section filed out around 1/3 of the way along, as this will run from the top to the very bottom of the gradient.

 

I then soldered the rails onto a 4" section of PCB, using the Tracksetta to maintain the proper curve. The joint was almost perfect. Just a very minor polishing off with a small file was all that was needed to produce a very smooth vee. Because of the heat involved, the assembly was slightly banana shaped when I had finished. This was easily corrected by bending the assembly the opposite way until it was flat. It now looks like this:-

 

 

No need for insulation gaps, of course, as trains on this trackwork will be cable-hauled.

 

Next, I have the tiresome task of threading on the sleepers either side of the bifurcation. I can then stick the lot down. The PCB section will need a bit of packing underneath to bring it up to the same height as the Easitrac sleeper sections.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Echo

[Echo]

I've now threaded the sleepers onto the rails for the funicular. Fitting only 1.5 sleepers at a time made it a very tedious job! On the 3-rail section, the closely matched sleepers are for the visible section - the station platform and the first part of the tunnel. The offcuts were used for the hidden bits. On the lower section, which will also be hidden, I have retained some of the sprues to help with proper alignment of the two tracks.

 

 

Next job is to stick the whole lot down onto the trackbed.

[nick_bastable]

rather belatedly I wonder if using the individual chairs on sleeper strip would have been easier ?

 

Nick

[Echo]

rather belatedly I wonder if using the individual chairs on sleeper strip would have been easier ?

 

Nick

 

I was threading 3 chairs at a time here, complete with sleepers, which I guess is the quicker option? I have no experience of individual chairs in 2mm scale though, so can't be certain.

 

EDIT

 

Thinking about it, aren't the individual chairs for bullhead? It is not at all clear from the price list, but I am guessing that is the case. My track is F/B.

 

Thanks for the suggestion though, Nick - it may be of use to others.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Echo

[nick_bastable]

I was threading 3 chairs at a time here, complete with sleepers, which I guess is the quicker option? I have no experience of individual chairs in 2mm scale though, so can't be certain.

 

EDIT

 

Thinking about it, aren't the individual chairs for bullhead? It is not at all clear from the price list, but I am guessing that is the case. My track is F/B.chairs 

 

Thanks for the suggestion though, Nick - it may be of use to others.

chairs are for bullhead so scrub that idea 

 

Nick

[Echo]

chairs are for bullhead so scrub that idea 

 

Nick

 

My other alternative was to used PCB sleepers and soldered track - you definitely have to scrub that, probably before and after soldering

 

Meanwhile, my funicular track is now glued to the board. I am just waiting for everything to set. I have used 24hr epoxy for the PCB section and Easitrac glue for the Easitrac sleepers. I applied the glue to the underside of the sleepers, rather than to the trackbed. That way you can actually see the track plan when you place the track on top of it. It also means that the glue is softening up the sleepers even before you lay them. It gives enough time to adjust the sleepers slightly once they are down, but there is already enough grab for them not to move of their own accord. No weights required. Here is the obligatory photo....

 

 

Next, I am going to have to delve into the dark art of electronics, working out a design for the the end stops at the bottom of the gradient - i.e. something to cut out the motor when the stock reaches the limit of travel. This will be invisible during normal operations, so I need something simple, foolproof and reliable. I am guessing microswitches, but only time will tell...

[Mim]

Finding a microswitch that will operate with the low weight of 2mm stock will be key. You can get some very light force ones. See. I reckon the incline rolling stock will have to be well weighted anyway to roll reliably on each end of the cable. A non contact alternative would be reed switches on the sleepers and a rare earth magnet under one of the vehicles. Or an optical beam from an IR LED to a detector across the two tracks, broken by a vehicle. The IR beam needs more electronics to be able to switch a motor, but a light force switch, or reed switch might need a bit anyway to switch and reverse the current of a motor.

 

I had a chance to think about this stuff myself. One of my ideas for the DJLC was the catch pit of doom on the Cromford incline of the Cromford and High Peak. Two turnouts and an opportunity to divert wagons to their destruction when challenged if they work! It would have needed some shrinking to fit in the DJLC area limit, but was doable.

 

 

Mim

[Echo]

One of my ideas for the DJLC was the catch pit of doom on the Cromford incline of the Cromford and High Peak. Two turnouts and an opportunity to divert wagons to their destruction when challenged if they work! 

 

Mim

 

That is the kind of layout that appeals to my sense of humour!

 

Regarding microswitches, actuation arms can be extended to allow less force to be used. Yes I too would add weight to stock. I would be happy to reverse the current to the motor manually with a DPDT switch.

[Caley Jim]

Regarding microswitches, actuation arms can be extended to allow less force to be used. Yes I too would add weight to stock. I would be happy to reverse the current to the motor manually with a DPDT switch.

A slightly different situation, but my turntable has only the one road on to it, so only requires to rotate through 180°.  The problem there was to be able to make fine adjustments so that the rails always lined up.  I used long arm microswitches activated by a long arm attached to the motor shaft to give plenty of adjustment.  See here.  The microswitch kicks in a diode which cuts off the power to the motor, but leaves it set up so that when the dpdt switch controlling the TT is thrown, it starts off in the opposite direction and then is stopped by the diode on the microswitch at the other end of the half-rotation.

 

Jim

[Echo]

I am pretty thick when it comes to the electrics, so not sure if this is going to work or not. I don't wish to criticise Jim in any way, but I think I don't need a diode when there is already a microswitch available to isolate the motor. Here is my idea...

 

 

Any comments/improvements welcome.

 

The microswitches (1 per track) will be activated by the stock hitting them (very gently, of course). Regarding the microswitches, I have found 3 tiny microswitches in my junkbox that may do the job. The actuation levers are pretty flimsy though. Rather than lengthen them to lessen the force required to close the switch, I will probably make a separate lever with a robust hinge to act on the microswitch lever. I can then experiment to see what length of lever, weight of stock etc. I need to actuate the switch reliably.

 

My other concern is how quickly the motor will stop revolving when the microswitch is activated. If it does revolve a bit more due to momentum after the power is switched off, the cable will end up slack, which might look unsightly. I guess the best thing is to try it and see what happens. 

 

The alternative is to somehow arrange the switch so that the stock may continue slightly down the gradient until the motor stops turning to maintain the tautness of the cable.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Echo

[Ian Morgan]

Well, that is half right. With the switch in one direction, when the car hits the micro-switch at the bottom, opening its circuit, the motor will stop. Changing the DPDT switch will make the motor start in the opposite direction, but then, nothing will stop it.

 

You need to remove your green wires from the motor to the DPDT switch terminals, connect a green wire directly from the motor to the bottom left hand terminal on the DPDT, and then a green wire with a second micro-switch from the motor to the right hand top terminal of the DPDT switch.

 

The wires to the micro switches should use the Common and the Normally Closed (NC) connections on the switch, so that when the carriage hits the switch, it will open circuit.

[Ian Morgan]

or, you could put the second micro-switch in the red wire that goes from the motor to the lower right terminal on the DPDT switch, which would have the same effect, but might reduce the amount of wiring required.

[Echo]

Many thanks for the replies but my plan is to stop the train at the top of the incline manually by rotating the controller knob to zero. The bottom is out of sight so needs to be an autostop, whereas the top will be right under my nose.

[Ian Morgan]

Sorry, I thought it was a 'normal' funicular where the two cars are connected to the ends of the same rope, so when one reaches the top, the other will reach the bottom.

[Echo]

No need to apologise Ian. Your input adds to my knowledge and gives me ideas for the future, as well as being of use to others!

 

2 different ropes in my model, one for each track. Also I am not modelling the true top or bottom - just a short section somewhere around halfway between the middle.and the top.

[Caley Jim]

I am pretty thick when it comes to the electrics, so not sure if this is going to work or not. I don't wish to criticise Jim in any way, but I think I don't need a diode when there is already a microswitch available to isolate the motor. 

My turntable DPDT switch is wired the other way.  The input from the power supply goes to one set of outer terminals which are then cross wired to the other set and output to the motor is off the centre terminals.  This halved the number of wires going to the turntable, which is on a separate baseboard to the switch, so two less wires in the connecting cable.

 

 

As shown, with the DPDT switch set to the right hand terminals, current can flow clockwise round the circuit until such time as the lower microswitch is tripped to the diode, at which point the turntable stops immediately due to the high gear ratio.  As soon as the turntable started to rotate the upper microswitch will have tripped away from the diode.  When the DPDT switch is reversed, the lower diode allows current to flow anti-clockwise and the motor reverses until such time as the upper microswitch is tripped back to the diode..

 

Jim

[Echo]

Thanks for that diagram and explanation, Jim. It makes your installation far clearer to me now.

 

In my case, the motor, DPDT switch and controller will be right next to each other at the top of the incline - one for each track. The microswitches alone will be at the bottom. I too will just need 2 wires going any distance in each circuit - the ones to and from the microswitch. I have no baseboard ends to cross. Horses for courses, I guess! 

[Echo]

The experiment with the microswitch didn't go quite as well as I had hoped. Here is a photo of the test rig...

 

 

I used a piece of 4mm rail as a pivot arm, pushed by the wagon attached to some thread, hitting the pivot arm to activate the microswitch. There is a wagon underneath that 50g packet of lead weights, believe it or not! The ratio of the lever was 5:1. Even so, the wagon didn't always operate the microswitch - only if it was travelling faster than I would prefer. The switch didn't reset immediately when the wagon was pulled back up the slope either. Sometimes there was a noticeable delay. The gradient is 1:8.

 

I could refine things a bit by having a properly balanced pivot arm on a better pivot, but I am not at all convinced this is going to work as well as it has to. Back to the drawing board, I think!

Edited November 10, 2017 by Echo

[Nigelcliffe]

Suggestion - remove microswitch.  Replace with "reed switch" in the centre of the track, and a rare-earth magnet glued to bottom of leading vehicle.   If the reed switch is correctly oriented, the magnet will switch it on. 

 

Or, if that's not acceptable, an IR beam switch, such as IR-Dot from Heathcote.  (Can be done cheaper from non-model rail sources, or from other kits). 

 

 

 

- Nigel