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Hornby TTS Class 20 wont programm with Multimaus


delticman
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A couple of weeks ago I bought a Hornby TTS Class 31 after being impressed with the sound from watching online videos of it, and it programmed fine using my Multimaus. On the strength of that sound quality, last week I bought the Hornby TTS Class 20 with a view to using the decoder in a Bachmann 20 and it would not programm at all. It was totally unresponsive so I returned it and got a replacement which has turned out to be just as unresponsive. I thought perhaps the Multimaus software needed an update but then why would it work fine with the Class 31?

Can anyone please enlighten me?

 

Regards,

Geoff

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A couple of weeks ago I bought a Hornby TTS Class 31 after being impressed with the sound from watching online videos of it, and it programmed fine using my Multimaus. On the strength of that sound quality, last week I bought the Hornby TTS Class 20 with a view to using the decoder in a Bachmann 20 and it would not programm at all. It was totally unresponsive so I returned it and got a replacement which has turned out to be just as unresponsive. I thought perhaps the Multimaus software needed an update but then why would it work fine with the Class 31?

Can anyone please enlighten me?

 

Regards,

Geoff

 

Could I advise a note of caution with the idea of using the class 20 TTS sound+decoder in the Bachmann 20. Having played about with the setup out of my new class 31 TTS I have found that the decoder motor parameters don't work too well with all motors even with cv alterations. The basis I understand is the Hornby 8249 decoder and while it controlled a Bachmann 08 and Heljan 15 quite okay - I just wanted to get an idea of what sound might be like fitted in them i.e. whether I would go down the sound in all my locos route (very expensive!) - but can't control a Bachmann 24 very well at all. Better on motor control 2, (cv150 set to 1 rather than 0), but it was then like a jack rabbit. On the default of 0 the loco just jerks along whatever the cv's.

 

My experience with the 31 TTS is that it programmes okay on POM, no probelm at all, but is iffy/eratic on a program track/mode.

 

Izzy

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Not sure If its the same with the multimaus but I know the tts decoders seem to prefer programming on the main rather than on a programming track which gives them a lower voltage.

Chris

DCC voltage is the same potential no matter which controller output terminals you use. It is the current that is lower on the programming track in accordance with NMRA standards. This is to protect a decoder against damage due to faulty wiring. As further protection a controller usually outputs only when it is actually sending programming signals, else the track is dead, hence why trying to take a meter reading from programming terminals is hit and miss.

Rob

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DCC voltage is the same potential no matter which controller output terminals you use. It is the current that is lower on the programming track in accordance with NMRA standards. This is to protect a decoder against damage due to faulty wiring. As further protection a controller usually outputs only when it is actually sending programming signals, else the track is dead, hence why trying to take a meter reading from programming terminals is hit and miss.

Rob

 apologies - the only currents I know go in buns :jester:

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Could I advise a note of caution with the idea of using the class 20 TTS sound+decoder in the Bachmann 20. Having played about with the setup out of my new class 31 TTS I have found that the decoder motor parameters don't work too well with all motors even with cv alterations. The basis I understand is the Hornby 8249 decoder and while it controlled a Bachmann 08 and Heljan 15 quite okay - I just wanted to get an idea of what sound might be like fitted in them i.e. whether I would go down the sound in all my locos route (very expensive!) - but can't control a Bachmann 24 very well at all. Better on motor control 2, (cv150 set to 1 rather than 0), but it was then like a jack rabbit. On the default of 0 the loco just jerks along whatever the cv's.

 

My experience with the 31 TTS is that it programmes okay on POM, no probelm at all, but is iffy/eratic on a program track/mode.

 

Izzy

 

Thanks for the reply Izzy, the reason I am going down the TTS route is because a while back I put a TTS Class 40 decoder into a Bachmann Class 40 and it worked really well so I was encouraged to try other locos. I think the mainstream sound decoders are just too expensive and I applaud Hornby for taking the initiative with budget decoders albeit with some compatability issues. Ah well, if it doesn`t work I will split the sound decoder from the loco and sell them seperately on, well we all know where.

 

Geoff

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  • 1 month later...

Just an update on progress so far. I had the firmware update installed into my Multimice (thank you so much Gaugemaster) and I was able to program both the Class 31 and the Class 20 but here`s the rub. Izzy, I know you warned me about the jerky running with the TTS decoder installed into the super-detailed Hornby Class 31 but I thought that would be because of the Hornby PCB which I was removing, so I made up my own circuit board but the running was still erratic. It calmed down a little when I changed motor parameters but not to my satisfaction.

So Izzy I tried your piggy-backing idea by installing a second decoder socket on the circuit board that was only connected to the pick-ups for the TTS sound and fitted a Bachmann 3 function decoder for the motor but no matter how much I altered CVs the loco was moving off before even the brakes released. In exasperation I replaced the Bachmann decoder with a basic Hattons 4 function decoder and this works fine with the added bonus of being able to have the front domino headcodes constantly lit even when in reverse for shunting!

So, whats the problem ?  Well when I turned the engine to face the other way the motor decoder works fine but the TTS decoder is unresponsive. The plot thickens, when I fitted the TTS Class 20 decoder to my 8-pin Bachmann Class 20 the loco moves off smoothly with the sound well synchronised, however when I reverse the controller dial the loco still moves in the original direction. Also if I turn the loco on the track to face the other way the TTS decoder is unresponsive.

What is going on with these decoders? If I had hair I would be tearing it out by now.

 

Geoff

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I'm afraid I haven't tried the class 31 TTS decoder in a super-dooper Hornby 31 as I don't have one, but remarks on other TTS related threads appear to suggest they run just fine. The jerky running issues I encountered were with a Bachmann class 24 I tried one in, just as an experiment. I do like to see what is/might be possible. 

 

I suppose piggybacking these TTS types does require that the decoder used for basic motor control must have a reasonable performance in respect of not going off like the proverbial rabbit, which sadly in my experience is what many provide even with much cv wrangling. The basic ones I use are Zimo MX600's which probably have better motor control than most/any other makes save CT. I have fitted a Bachmann 36-557 21 pin into a Heljan W&M railbus as a trial, and only got barely acceptable slow speed takeoff by using 128ss and setting a bespoke speed curve in JMRI/DP with a lot of acc/dec dialled in. But on ss4/5/6 it's still way faster than a standard Zimo produces on just 28ss and just about acceptable as a stop-gap measure.

 

However, the basic issue appears to be that your system, like some others, sends out command signals in what I can only describe/understand as a non-bi-directional way, and these TTS decoders can only 'see/read' these commands when place on the track in one direction whereas most decoders can read them whatever way around things are. They are like this with my elderly Sprog II but work fine with my main Gaugemaster Prodigy system.

 

As I have remarked before in a thread somewhere I don't think being able to use these decoders should come down to luck as to what DCC system you have, but what the answer is I am not sure. All I am clear about is that I cannot justify £100+ per loco for sound however much I might quite like it, and these TTS decoders do fill the basic need that many such as myself have.

 

cheers,

 

Izzy

Edited by Izzy
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If piggy backing onto a motor control decoder just be aware that TTS decoders need 128 speed steps and accel/decell set at no less than 15 and that BEMF is used to control the chuff/revs loaded/coasting effects.

 

Whether you can set these parameters up independently per decoder on the same address or not is outwith my bailiwick of knowledge.

 

Rob

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Thank you for your replies Izzy and RAFHAAA96, well my Class 31 is now running and sounding great, just to recap, this is a detailed Lima body on a super-detail Hornby chassis that I got cheap as the ends had distorted due to mazak rot, with a Hattons 4-function decoder powering the motor and domino headcode lights and a Hornby TTS decoder providing the sounds. The only drawback is that if I were to turn the engine to face the other way on the track the sounds do not work as the TTS decoder does not respond. I was wondering if I were to invest in something like a Sprog and programm the decoder from that, would it then respond to my Multimaus correctly? Izzy I totally agree that one should not have to fork out £100 plus for a sound decoder these days, Hornby are to be applauded for bringing out this budget range but these compatability issues need to be addressed. I will certainly keep persevering with them. RAFHAAA96 yes you can change CVs on each decoder, I just unplug the decoder that I dont want to alter while doing so.

Its been a lot of hard work but well worth it I feel,now I have to start work on my class 20s, yum yum.

 

Geoff

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If piggy backing onto a motor control decoder just be aware that TTS decoders need 128 speed steps and accel/decell set at no less than 15 and that BEMF is used to control the chuff/revs loaded/coasting effects.

 

Whether you can set these parameters up independently per decoder on the same address or not is outwith my bailiwick of knowledge.

 

Rob

 

Hi Rob,

 

I am running all my TTS (and others decoders) including the piggybacked one on 28 speed steps without any issues at all.  As I keep reading the TTS need to be set to 128 to work correctly I am wondering what I am doing differently. Or could it somehow just be the way the Gaugemaster system operates?

 

 

 

Thank you for your replies Izzy and RAFHAAA96, well my Class 31 is now running and sounding great, just to recap, this is a detailed Lima body on a super-detail Hornby chassis that I got cheap as the ends had distorted due to mazak rot, with a Hattons 4-function decoder powering the motor and domino headcode lights and a Hornby TTS decoder providing the sounds. The only drawback is that if I were to turn the engine to face the other way on the track the sounds do not work as the TTS decoder does not respond. I was wondering if I were to invest in something like a Sprog and programm the decoder from that, would it then respond to my Multimaus correctly? Izzy I totally agree that one should not have to fork out £100 plus for a sound decoder these days, Hornby are to be applauded for bringing out this budget range but these compatability issues need to be addressed. I will certainly keep persevering with them. RAFHAAA96 yes you can change CVs on each decoder, I just unplug the decoder that I dont want to alter while doing so.

Its been a lot of hard work but well worth it I feel,now I have to start work on my class 20s, yum yum.

 

Geoff

 

Hi Geoff,

 

The TTS decoders I have will only work one way with my early version sprog. I believe a firmware update fix might be available for later sprog versions to enable both ways running but I don't think that programing them with the sprog will have any effect on how they respond on another system such as your Multimaus. I would think a similar firmware fix for that would be required. Or a firmware fix for the TTS decoders. I can't in truth see either happening even if they were possible, which they might not be.

 

regards,

 

Izzy

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I have fitted a couple of TTS decoders into full fat locos.

 

Using an NCE Powercab, I found that both CV's 3 and 4 need adjusting. but slow running can still be slightly jerky.

 

Have been able to use Program Track without problems.

 

The trick is to play about with the algorithm settings, which very helpfully these decoders allow you to adjust.  See the Hornby instruction sheet for details.  Both my 31's responded better on algorithm 1, the default setting (CV150=0).  One loco I ended up with CV151=50 and CV152=20; on the other loco both CV151 and CV152 ended up on 30.

 

It really is worth spending time adjusting these algorithm CV's.  I can honestly say that motor control is now equal to, if not better than, my £118 ESU Loksound v4's.

 

Sounds on the 31 are good.  I used the supplied speaker/enclosure face downwards having removed fan mechanism. I have also just fitted a different (bass reflex) speaker to a third 31 which makes the sound slightly different. I thinks it's nice to have slight tone difference within the same class of loco.

 

With the really good selection of playable sounds and at under £40 each they offer fantastic value.

 

I'm really looking forward to Classes 37, 47 and 60.  And I hope the Class 20 is made available as a separate item.

 

(Edited for spelling).

 

CDF

Edited by cravensdmufan
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@delticman

 

The only drawback is that if I were to turn the engine to face the other way on the track the sounds do not work as the TTS decoder does not respond.

 

 

I have seen on the various forums that some TTS will only program uni-directionally with certain controllers as well as operate such. Why is totally beyond my understanding as there is no logic for it to happen. Possibly a decoder fault if other TTS types program and work OK with that controller. I suggest you report it in to Hornby.

 

@Izzy

 

I am running all my TTS (and others decoders) including the piggybacked one on 28 speed steps without any issues at all.  As I keep reading the TTS need to be set to 128 to work correctly I am wondering what I am doing differently. Or could it somehow just be the way the Gaugemaster system operates?

 

 

I have no idea apart from the speed steps thing is to do with how the sound bytes kick in and out - e.g steamers have I think 18 sound bytes looped and swapped as speed changes and diesels have usually only 4 sound bytes (idle, N1, N2, N3) which change with speed steps set in associated TTW CV settings.

 

As a loco decells then the coasting sound byte kicks in until the track speed matches the throttle setting (sensed by BEMF?) and the on-load chuff or engine notch reverts for that speed. I presume the 128 speed steps requirement is for this synchronisation to happen.

 

Rob

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  • 2 weeks later...

Saw the following statement on Rails web page earlier regards tts chips they have removed from black 5 locos. It mentions a change in programming of TTS chips to address controller issues. Hopefully we will shortly have confirmation of what this is from Hornby themselves.

 

Due to many customer requests we have decided to remove the sound from a small quantity of our limited edition Black 5 locomotive. This allows people to acquire this Black 5 sound chip which is not in the current Hornby Range.

 

The chip has the latest software update which fixes previous bugs a few customers experienced with certain controllers.

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As with many others, it seems, I am experiencing problems with the Hornby TTS Sound Decoders - when used on 'other makes' controllers  (my default)

- such as  Roco Multimaus, MultiCentraleCPro (with Multimaus or MultimausPro), and Z21 - others reporting it with ESUs and more.

 

When I originally started buying the TTS fitted models,  and tested them, I did not realise that I needed to try them facing both ways !   

 

When experiencing the 'suddenly dead' locos, I tested them with many different controllers - but omitted to rotate the models !!!

I did measure the timings and observe the waveforms in each case - the timings were absolutely identical.

 

I DID aPPEAR TO FIND that they 'recovered' after being left for a few days - making me think it was behaving like a 'capacitor' problem ... which had to self-discharge for recovery.... but it MAY of course be that when I tried them a few days later, they were simply facing the other way 8-(    bad diagnosis 8-(

 

To confuse the situation these locos appear to work on the Hornby Select and Roco MAUS2 (the latter using the same amplifier and Power Supply as the Multimaus).    -   and since they 'recovered instantly'  when on either of these - it is more suggestive that it was the DIRECTION of the PHYSICAL LOCO  which was the difference.  !!!!!  --- BUT these controllers (Select or Maus2) ALSO REQUIRED that only short addresses be used ( I normally use 4 digit )

 

The 'lockout' was first seen by me in February, when testing a layout for Eurotrack using my Great Nephews to operate it : I had taken some UK TTS locos for them to try because of the added sound effects ...   And of course locos were lifted on and off the track ovals - POSSIBLY changing direction but without me thinking if it as any problem ..except they stopped working when the Multumaus was Master Controller. 

 

BUT since I had provided the boys with Maus 2 controllers [for their Playmobil'G Scale], we swapped over (because I have discovered that they program some locos others can't), and I reprogrammed the locos to short addresses and they worked then worked... (with  the Maus 2 ... and perhaps facing one way whenever I retried the Multimauses later.)

 

There have been suggestions that 14 Speed steps  created a problem with them - the manual advocates (only) 128 -   a decoder can be set  for 14 (old standard) or 28/128 {newer standard]  as part of CV29 .  Again, I thought I had verified this on Friday  - BUT it might have been confused  by a direction swap ???   [it is so easy to lose confidence in the reliability of a product .. and  having bought many of them.. even more stressful 8-(   

 

I also thought I saw the 'forward' direction change when it was set to 14 speed steps - (on a steam loco) but this is not easy to recall with diesels 

[ again, there was a historical  change from the 'early days' to nmra DCC - which is why LGB /'MTS' locos run the other way [and Bachmann G Scale locos include a switch to avoid the problem.   Hornby's Zero-1 changed its forward direction a few weeks after launch (Red Fwd/Rev Labels were provided 8-) ] 

 

There has been, and on Friday during testing, with one loco, I did seem to experience that the 'lockout' occurred after sending 14 speed step commands - BUT at the time I may still not have been fully taking into account  the 'rotational' effect that should not be occurring !!!  ( I was still thinking in terms of a capacitor at the time)

 

My current list of 'uni-directional' TTS models on Roco Multimaus has grown to the following:

======================================================================

3 x Virgin East Coast  HST (6 decoders),
1 x  M/N Holland-Africa Line  R3382TTS  LOT01- PO10001181 R3382TTS-16-421

2 x Class 31 -added decoder

 

Okay at present: no unidirectionality observed
===================================
2x King (added decoder)  REF01-100002973  R8109-27 421
Class 67 Cairn Orm   6704  TTS fitted
A4 (added decoder)
A1 Railroad Flying Scotsman  REF01-91227  R3284TTS 18-078

Factory-fitted Not yet RE_tested for 'uni-directionality'

=======================================
Class 47 TTS fitted,  

Kilwilly Castle TTS fitted   

Class 40TTS fitted

Tornado     -  add-on decoder ,

A1/A3 Pacific  -  add-on decoders  x2

 

but

GADWELL A4 TTS okay at the moment    REF01-91227  R3285TTS -43-852  (matching the Okay behaviour of the Add-On A4 mentioned above)

 

Someone else reports Hornby have a solution !

Meanwhile .... no more hard-wired installations, even though my replacement speakers have arrived today 8-(

 

Checking one of my class31s  intended for sound addition  showed it had suffered from metal bending of the cab floor casting which has broken the body moulding at front and back!   ouch.

 

Phil S.

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Thank you for all your observations guys, I did speak with the Hornby technical department and they are certainly aware of the problem and are looking into a firmware fix on these problem decoders. The problem for me, and I suspect many others, is that installing the decoders in other locos has now voided any warranty. I am waiting for them to get back to me at the moment but as far as I see it these problem TTS decoders have been retailed to the public when in fact they are simply not "fit for purpose" with or without warranty.

 

Geoff

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I think you will find Hornby are quite flexible with replacing or reprogramming the TTS decoders if my past experience of their customer service with other decoders is anything to go by. When there is a known problem, they are usually very fair.

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Phil: I can now add some further observations to the tests I have been making.

Using the Roco Multimaus and Amplifier was how I did the testing on Friday 

 

Update:

Adding a PSX intelligent Circuit breaker or a Hornby Booster between the Roco Amplifier Output and the track had no effect: Same orientation fault.

{Since the Hornby Booster includes an autoreverser - I wonder if I can trigger it to reverse, on my test setup, to see if that 'swaps the orientation' ???} 

 

(Back in February/March I tried them with Select, Maus2, Multimaus, MultimausPro/MulticentralPro, and Z21   I did, and still have not tested then with a Sprog Mk2 or Massoth Dimax800 -the latter allowing the number of locos in a cycle to be changed - which affects the repeat rate at which commands are sent. Back then, I did not realise the problem was related to the orientation of the loco on the track, as the dcc signal is symmetrical - and I checked timings and waveform shapes on the oscilloscope (The Select had the 'worst shape' with 50% initial amplitude of ringing !! - but this damped down when 2 decoders (HST power cars) were added as load.  All controllers showed precisely correct timing for the 0's/1's.   Select and Maus 2 worked in both directions., and also programmed without problems - but also required short addressing.  The Multimaus would program without problems (short or long addresses) PROVIDED the loco was placed on the track with the orientation  in which it worked - appearing dead to all actions in  the other orientation.

 - 

14/28/128 speed steps is a red-herring as far as the decoder 'working or not is concerned: I have had them working on all 3 settings (lifting the loco off between each setting to ensure the  decoder did a full restart) ie Movement, Sound, and Lighting if fitted (changing with speed if 14, as expected)

- I am not concerned here about whether synchronisation was correct or not - simply whether the function performed AT ALL.

Similarly F1-F28 are sent in separate bytes to the speed/direction byte(s), and should not be affected. 

 

The 8P Duke of Gloucester..., Class 40 and Kidwelly Castle - all bought with TTS pre-fitted DID NOT SHOW THE PROBLEM on test yesterday.  Class47 still to test.

Edited by Phil S
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  • 2 weeks later...

Just seen on the Hornby web site, forum topic dcc and tts sound decoders.

 

 

The Hornby TTS sound decoders have been extremely well received by the modeller; however we have received reports that when TTS fitted models have been used with certain DCC controllers, difficulties have been experienced. This may also extend to those modellers that have purchased solo decoders to fit to non - TTS fitted locos.

 

In many cases such issues can be easily resolved by a simple telephone call to Hornby. Therefore, if you do experience any problems when operating locomotives fitted with the Hornby TTS decoder, please contact the Hornby Helpline on 01843 223525 (ask for Option 2) and they will be more than happy to resolve any issues you may be having.

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  • 1 month later...

That sounds like they have nailed the problem and have a fix for it.

​Rob

 

Quick update, I contacted Hornby and they let me send my decoders to them for the firmware fix even though I had removed them from the original TTS locos and fitted them to other engines. I removed the decoders and posted them off on Wednesday morning and they arrived back on my doorstep on Saturday morning all fixed.

I have to say "hats off" to Hornby for great service and the decoders now work as they should, the sound on the Class 20 is particularly impressive.

So, if you are experiencing problems using the newest TTS decoders with your particular DCC control system, contact Hornby on 01843 233525 and press option 2.

 

Geoff

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  • 2 years later...
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Apologies if this is the wrong thread but it looked like the best without starting a new one. I’ve just fitted a Hornby TTS decoder to a Bachmann 20. I’ve managed to programme the address on the decoder and all the sounds are as expected. However, when I try to run the loco, it just makes what I can only describe as a repetitive grunting sound and doesn’t move. It does this whether I have sound on or off. 
 

has anyone else experienced this and please advise what I’m doing wrong!

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Assuming it works okay on DC, or on DCC with another decoder, all I can think is as I have experienced, for some reason these can’t always control some motors in Bachmann locos. Changing the motor control cv’s as suggested in a previous post by Cravensdmufan as a first step would be my advice. The result might not be great, or quite satisfactory, but then you will know where to go, or rather, where the problem might lay.

 

Izzy

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