Locomotives on wagon turntables

[Guy Rixon]

My emerging layout-design includes a small, cramped goods-yard and shed where the shed access is by wagon turntables, built in the early 1860s. The site is so awkward that the turntables are unavoidable, and most of the shunting is to be by capstan.

 

However, I want locos to enter the yard to place and remove wagons. The track layout can be much simpler and more flexible if locos can pass over the turntables. If they cannot, then I need an extra road to run round the train, which I would like to avoid.

 

Is it plausible that a locos - 0-6-0 and 0-6-0T operating c.1908, so not 8-coupled monsters - could run over shunting turntables? It's obviously possible to build a shunting turntable that would bear a loco (there were some in Birmingham New Street c.1870, in the platform roads), but is it credible to have such devices in a goods yard?

[Mark Saunders]

No as the wagons would normally be moved by Capstan or Horse, these turntables are designed for wagons only and in a similar way many works traversers were not suitable or locomotives!

 

Mark Saunders

[LMS2968]

Agree. The turntable would need to be made far stronger - and more expensive - to carry the weight of even a small loco than they would for a loaded wagon. The capstans would be used to move a raft of wagons out of the turntable area to a point where the loco could access them.

[asmay2002]

With Capstans in the right place it is possible to shunt wagons on and off turntables with a loco on a model using a chain (or a rope in real life).  

[geoff_nicholls]

There are photos elsewhere on this site:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83442-battery-electric-locomotives/

showing a battery electric loco actually standing on a wagon turntable. However, for c1908 I would agree with previous posts.

Edited August 17, 2017 by geoff_nicholls

[Mark Saunders]

There are photos elsewhere on this site:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83442-battery-electric-locomotives/

showing a battery electric loco actually standing on a wagon turntable. However, for c1908 I would agree with previous posts.

 

The battery electric like BEL 1 is a very lightweight locomotive and would be suitable for a turntable but most others would not be suitable.

 

Mark Saunders

[Dunsignalling]

As others have said, "normal" sized locos would be too heavy to pass over a wagon turntable, let alone use one and most would be too long for that even if the weight wasn't an issue.

 

The only types I can think of that are light enough and short enough to use a wagon turntable safely are a Ruston 48DS (7 tons) and a Lister Railtruck (don't know the weight but probably even lighter).

 

Whether any actually did so is another matter.

 

John

Edited August 17, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Guy Rixon]

OK, thanks for the advice. I'll ensure that all loco-worked lines are turntable free. Given the history of the site, I'll probably model the remains of the turntables on those lines, but with the pits filled in and plain line laid across. I'll either have to add an extra loop, or suppose that the locos run round their trains "off stage" (which has some interesting implications for the approach tracks at a really busy bit of London).

[unravelled]

I don't know if this helps or confuses as it's a shed rather than goods depot I think it's Bristol Barrow Rd. I don't know the arrangement of lines, but it looks as if locos work across it.

 

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[LMS2968]

There are no capstans visible in that photo, so possibly it was intended that locos should work over the turntables.

[Killian keane]

On the liverpool and manchester locos seem to have been turned on very small wagon turntables (or something very like wagon turntables)

[pb_devon]

Not main-line, but Devonport Dockyard had 0-4-0 industrial steam running across wagon turntables from 1860s onwards.

[LMS2968]

On the liverpool and manchester locos seem to have been turned on very small wagon turntables (or something very like wagon turntables)

This is correct, but these were developments of Rocket, and were generally less than ten tons.

[IWCR]

In  the  early  days  wagon  turntables  were  often  present  at  stations  on  passenger  lines  (could  be  a  large  number  at  a  terminus)  and  locomotives  would  work  across  them,  I  am  aware  of  goods  sidings which  included  small  wagon  tables  which  also  had  locomotives  crossing  them  up  till  the  end  of steam  days.

In  general  however  a  wagon  turntable  within  an  industrial  complex  was  probably  not  strong  enough  for  a  locomotive.

(Exceptions  no  doubt  exist),  a  capstan  need  not  be  a  requirement,  horse  shunting  was  often  used  or  indeed  manpower..

 

Pete

[barrowroad]

I don't know if this helps or confuses as it's a shed rather than goods depot I think it's Bristol Barrow Rd. I don't know the arrangement of lines, but it looks as if locos work across it.

 

sca014.jpg

 

Thanks

 

Dave

Hi Dave,

The shed is indeed Bristol Barrow Road and the photo shows the rear of the roundhouse adjacent to the old Midland four road Workshop. There were originally four 20ft 'Loco' turntables, two were removed leaving the remaining pair in situ. They are not wagon turntables as their function was to permit access to the workshop - one turntable per workshop road. 

The design was large enough to allow MR 4f, 3f 0-6-0's; 4-4-0's and tank engines to gain access with tender engines having their tenders removed so just the engine entered the workshop.

I am informed by an old former employee that they used a pinch bar to move locos into the workshop whilst a cable was used - around a capstan - attached to an loco on the road on which the 9f is positioned to haul a loco out onto the table.

The photo shows the two remaining tables. The nearest was used to access the wheel lathe on road 4 of the workshop. Loco driving wheels removed using the wheeldrop - inside the lean to top left in the photo - were moved [ pinch bar again] across this table from left to right into road 4. Road 2 - there table nearest the shed - gave access to the remaining workshop road. The workshop had a 15ton overhead crane. I have a photo of a SDJR sentinel on this road inside the workshop.

This table was latterly used to give access to the water softening plant situated to the left of the photo and enabled wagon access for supplies and waste removal.

 

Hope this of interest. My RMweb blog Bristol Barrow Road gives additional information.

 

Regards,

 

Robin 

Edited August 17, 2017 by barrowroad

[Killian keane]

This is correct, but these were developments of Rocket, and were generally less than ten tons.

Very true, so the question is how common were tank engines of the 1860s era that weighed 10 tons or less

A 12" cylindered Neilson box engine weighed 13 tons and a Chaplin vertical boilered loco weighed 8 tons, a Hughes 0-4-0st weighed 10.5 tons, 'Pugsy' weighed 7 tons 19cwt, to be honest one could safely get away with using a coffee pot, after all, they scarcely weighed as much as some wagons

Edited August 17, 2017 by Killian keane

[Poggy1165]

Hi Dave,

The shed is indeed Bristol Barrow Road and the photo shows the rear of the roundhouse adjacent to the old Midland four road Workshop. There were originally four 20ft 'Loco' turntables, two were removed leaving the remaining pair in situ. They are not wagon turntables as their function was to permit access to the workshop - one turntable per workshop road. 

The design was large enough to allow MR 4f, 3f 0-6-0's; 4-4-0's and tank engines to gain access with tender engines having their tenders removed so just the engine entered the workshop.

I am informed by an old former employee that they used a pinch bar to move locos into the workshop whilst a cable was used - around a capstan - attached to an loco on the road on which the 9f is positioned to haul a loco out onto the table.

The photo shows the two remaining tables. The nearest was used to access the wheel lathe on road 4 of the workshop. Loco driving wheels removed using the wheeldrop - inside the lean to top left in the photo - were moved [ pinch bar again] across this table from left to right into road 4. Road 2 - there table nearest the shed - gave access to the remaining workshop road. The workshop had a 15ton overhead crane. I have a photo of a SDJR sentinel on this road inside the workshop.

This table was latterly used to give access to the water softening plant situated to the left of the photo and enabled wagon access for supplies and waste removal.

 

Hope this of interest. My RMweb blog Bristol Barrow Road gives addition information.

 

Regards,

 

Robin 

 

This seems to have been a feature of design at some Midland sheds. Belle Vue, Manchester, had a fairly similar arrangement, which as a kid studying plans (the shed had closed by then) puzzled me no end. It may help explain why the Midland preferred small locos. They would fit these turntables whereas big engines wouldn't.

[Nearholmer]

The catalogues issued by suppliers to industrial railways, Hudson, Decauville, O&K, etc, usually include wagon turntables suitable for a variety of axle-weights. The ones suitable for locos are significantly more complex, robust, and expensive.

 

The very lightest ones aren't much more than two flat plates, with a central bearing, but the heavier ones all seem to consist of two castings, with a 'spider' fitted with rollers in between, so that the central bearing really only provides alignment, not load-carrying. The ones for heaviest axle-weights have 'spiders' with many arms, each arm carrying several rollers, so that the load is spread over many points. The castings must have been machined to provide 'tracks' for the rollers, so making a heavy-weight one must have involved a lot of machining.

 

Upshot: yes, locos could go across some, but they would have been expensive to provide.

 

IIRC some of the very cramped goods depots in central London had them, because without them it would have been impossible to fit what was needed into the site.

 

Kevin

[asmay2002]

Very true, so the question is how common were tank engines of the 1860s era that weighed 10 tons or less

A 12" cylindered Neilson box engine weighed 13 tons and a Chaplin vertical boilered loco weighed 8 tons, a Hughes 0-4-0st weighed 10.5 tons, 'Pugsy' weighed 7 tons 19cwt, to be honest one could safely get away with using a coffee pot, after all, they scarcely weighed as much as some wagons

Why 10 tons?  A fully loaded steam era 4 wheel goods wagon would be about 16-18 tons (e.g. 6 ton tare + 12 ton load).  A 16 ton coal wagon would be about 7.5 tons tare for a total of 23.5 tons. I would be surprised if a wagon turntable couldn't take 20 tons.

[LMS2968]

Why 10 tons?  A fully loaded steam era 4 wheel goods wagon would be about 16-18 tons (e.g. 6 ton tare + 12 ton load).  A 16 ton coal wagon would be about 7.5 tons tare for a total of 23.5 tons. I would be surprised if a wagon turntable couldn't take 20 tons.

Not in 1860! And even by this date loco weights had grown enormously, but a fully loaded wagon would most probably be below 15 tons.

[Killian keane]

Why 10 tons? A fully loaded steam era 4 wheel goods wagon would be about 16-18 tons (e.g. 6 ton tare + 12 ton load). A 16 ton coal wagon would be about 7.5 tons tare for a total of 23.5 tons. I would be surprised if a wagon turntable couldn't take 20 tons.

Because thats the weight of the heavier Rocket class locos which we know for a fact were turned on wagon turntables, not to mention a typical weight for a wagon of that era

[penyghent]

There was a wagon turntable on the down side at Worksop East, which served the adjacent Maltsters off one of two sidings. I have a photo of a Class 47 on the siding with the turntable, the loco clearly having crossed it to get to the buffer stops. Don't know if that info helps or not!

[asmay2002]

Not in 1860! And even by this date loco weights had grown enormously, but a fully loaded wagon would most probably be below 15 tons.

The OP asked about 1908. 

[Nearholmer]

The Midland Railway Goods Depot at Whitecross Street, just short of Moorgate on the City Widened Lines, is one that I think might have had a "locomotive proof" wagon turntable.

 

From what I can work out, the railway level (in a combination of cuttings, tunnels, and basements) track plan was as below.

 

The wagon lifts led up to a street-level warehouse, which was obliterated in the blitz, containing traversers and a set of points.

 

If locos couldn't cross the turntable, goodness knows how it was shunted ....... in fact, even if they could, goodness knows ......

 

Kevin

[Dunsignalling]

Why 10 tons?  A fully loaded steam era 4 wheel goods wagon would be about 16-18 tons (e.g. 6 ton tare + 12 ton load).  A 16 ton coal wagon would be about 7.5 tons tare for a total of 23.5 tons. I would be surprised if a wagon turntable couldn't take 20 tons.

Wagon turntables were generally used in handling merchandise traffic in and out of factories and warehouses. Coal and minerals were not normally dealt with "indoors" because of the dust generated.

 

At the time most wagon turntables were installed, sheeted open wagons and goods vans generally weighed up to about 6 tons tare for a payload of 8 tons. A 50% safety margin would take the gross capacity of such a table up to 21 tons but old age would probably result in lower limits being applied. 

 

Despite newer wagons being rated to carry 12 tons, it became quite unusual for them to be loaded to anywhere near their full capacity - one of the reasons wagon-load freight became increasingly uneconomic.

 

John

Edited August 18, 2017 by Dunsignalling