New Railway Preservation Projects and Objectors

[D854_Tiger]

Whilst every new project and extension is no doubt welcomed in communities like this one (the ecstatic turned up to eleven), I'm sure that is not always the case elsewhere.

 

So what level of objections to new schemes has been typical, on what grounds, how are those objections generally dealt with and what restrictions if any can be placed on operations such as good neighbour measures.

 

Also what impact upon property prices might there be for those living near preservation projects, is that impact mainly positive or negative.

 

How does local media respond to a new project, with enthusiasm or running with the concerns of locals that more than likely make up their readership.

 

How much (if any) objection is likely to come from the business and commercial sector.

 

Finally, once up and running, how likely is it that further objections to operations may arise, new build for example or just a railway deciding to organise an all nighter.

 

[The Johnster]

A study of the early preservation history of the Ffestiniog Railway will illustrate many of the pertinent points, and the railway is to be congratulated for overcoming it's difficulties and becoming an accepted and valued part of the local scene.  Powerful opposition on the part of the CEGB (now National Power) supported by the local need for jobs that their pumped storage scheme was to provide were the issues in this case.  The FR was perceived, rightly or wrongly, as a tool of the English speaking Quarry Owners, and then of equally English speaking enthusiasts, and no friend of the Welsh speaking local ordinary people who deserted it for the bus as soon as they could back in the 1920s; any knowledge of industrial relations and working conditions in the slate quarries of North Wales will provide understanding of the resentment.

 

Issues that I am aware of offhand include (in the same vicinity as the FR) objections to the WHR on the grounds of the threatened closure of a public footpath along the original trackbed and through the tunnels in the Glaslyn Pass, a point at which the only other public route is a busy and narrow main road contained between drystone walls with no pavements, highly unsuitable for pedestrians or cyclists and very popular for obvious scenic reasons, and objections to the noise and smoke pollution of the railway's Garratts.  The Dean Forest Railway features a level crossing in the high street of Lydney which at the time of it's re-opening to traffic was the A48 trunk road; this caused a good bit of local objection and some from Gloucester County Council's highways department, and there is the ongoing battle to allow West Somerset trains into Taunton; this is a deeply rooted conflict involving Trade Union agreements and local politics rather than any popular grass roots objection to the railway, though.  The SVR had to cease all night boilermaking activities some years ago after noise complaints about the hammering.           

 

A preserved railway on your doorstep can mean the eyesores of unrestored ex-Barry locos hanging around for years, although this is becoming less of an issue over time.  My experience of media attitudes is that they are generally supportive of the putative 'boon to local tourism', if a bit ambivalent about the nutters who are trying to organise things; 'enthusiast' is never a complimentary term in a newspaper or tv report and is code for 'amatuer'.  Attitudes change a bit when the expected millions to the local economy have failed to materialise within a few months...

 

There are, with the will to compromise on both sides, usually ways around such objections.  I have no idea if a steam railway at the bottom of your garden increases or decreases the value of your house, and the answer is probably 'it depends', but it is no good for the stuff on your washing line which will get an occasional drenching in dirty dilute sulphuric acid!  My parents were at one time interested in buying a bungalow at the west end of the village of Rhoose in South Wales; it was (still is) the last in the village and hemmed in between the road and the Vale of Glamorgan railway.  The estate agent claimed that this was only ever used occasionally as a diversion to the main line when engineering works took place on a Sunday, which, as this was the early 70s and it was a location where loaded coal trains thumped past going downhill with 22 and half ton axle loads bouncing the foundations every hour or so 24/7, to come back as empties with the throttles wide open and a class 47 blasting a hole in the sky, was a little disingenuous...  

 

I persuaded Father that the place was not for him and mum; if there were no trains at the back, cement lorries thundered past the front all day leaving a trail of fumes and dust behind them.

Edited August 17, 2017 by The Johnster

[Andy Kirkham]

I believe a number of farmers objected to the Welsh Highland because they had come to regard the trackbed as their own property.

 

[Edit] I remember one of their number put up a prominent sign near Waunfawr reading "Stop the Welsh Dome", or similar. [For younger readers,this was allusion to the Millennium Dome, widely regarded as a folly and waste of money]

 

At Railwells I asked one of the gents on the Lynton & Barnstaple stand if anyone was objecting to the reopening; he said it was only people whose own land might be encroached upon.

 

Highway authorities and local governments have prevented at least partial stretches of some preservation schemes because they conflicted with road schemes - Ashburton, Welshpool, Ulverston to Haverthwaite; Bridgnorth itself was threatened by a bypass in the early days of the SVR.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Andy Kirkham

[The Johnster]

AFAIK those who objected to the WHR on the grounds that they thought they owned the trackbed on which their sheep had grazed undisturbed for so long were fairly quickly appraised of whose land it was, and certainly of whose it wasn't, like it or lump it; I imagine the same applies to the L & B scheme.  There are issues when they have built structures on the trackbeds, though.

 

Opposition from road schemes already approved is another matter, and here the railway will be on the back foot and have to object to the scheme, often after it has been approved in which case they have little say in the matter.  There are also cases where trackbeds have been sold or otherwise passed to new owners by BR or the authority responsible, an issue being faced by the group attempting to re-open the Blaenrhondda Tunnel as a pedestrian and cycle route.  In that case there seems to be enough goodwill on all sides to carry the scheme through, but in many cases local authorities step in as landlords in order to have a say in the way the schemes are organised and operated, and attitudes differ by a factor of however many different local authorities there are...

 

Opposition, where it occurs, seems generally to be around the issues of rights of way, use of the trackbed legal or otherwise, road schemes, potential pollution issues, and potential road traffic problems generated by those wishing to visit the railway once it is up and running.  There may be safety issues where public rights of way cross the line, and footbridges or underpasses may need to be built.

 

In short, a putative preservation scheme usually has the goodwil of it's neighbours, but this is not a given that can be relied on!

[locomad]

I believe a number of farmers objected to the Welsh Highland because they had come to regard the trackbed as their own property.

 

.

Not only that you had at the time that daft case where as planning permission was given to build a large station within the national park creating a lot more noise and traffic, yet the locals living nearby who were affected by the new station were refused planning permission to fit double glazing.

 

Several landowners had built sheds and other structures on the trackbed, quite a few used it as tracks to gain access to farmland, also walkers used the trackbed for over 20 years as paths

[Steamport Southport]

It's quite common. Plenty of locals complain about preserved railways whether new projects or extensions. It's just human nature. Look at how many neighbours argue about trees or fences.

 

I seem to remember a few years ago that the Llangollen Railway was getting quite a bit of vandalism. It wasn't local kids, but a local farmer. I remember when Llangollen itself was a bit of a dump, now it's a thriving town.

 

Even some enthusiasts are against other preserved railways opening. For some reason they think that it will be detrimental to their own project. It won't be. If those enthusiasts were going to volunteer or donate to your project then they would have done so already. If they fail then they've failed by themselves. But at least they have tried.

 

 

 

Jason

[rodent279]

It's quite common. Plenty of locals complain about preserved railways whether new projects or extensions. It's just human nature. Look at how many neighbours argue about trees or fences.

 

I seem to remember a few years ago that the Llangollen Railway was getting quite a bit of vandalism. It wasn't local kids, but a local farmer. I remember when Llangollen itself was a bit of a dump, now it's a thriving town.

 

Even some enthusiasts are against other preserved railways opening. For some reason they think that it will be detrimental to their own project. It won't be. If those enthusiasts were going to volunteer or donate to your project then they would have done so already. If they fail then they've failed by themselves. But at least they have tried.

 

 

 

Jason

I think some people just object because they can. It's one of the few areas in which people think they have power.

 

On the G/WR, when running through Bishop's Cleeve, there is no station, and the trains always seem to slow down to around 10mph. I assume this is to minimise noise for the local residents-can anyone confirm?

[Kris]

The Helston railway had lots of local objection to the proposed station that they wanted, and it took 3 (I think) applications and revisions to get it through planing. 

[LMS2968]

Land owners, or those who think they are the land owners, have been the principal objectors going back to the plans for the Liverpool & Manchester Railway. Lords Sefton and Derby, and others, had the Authorisation Bill thrown out of Parliament in 1825 (it succeeded the following year, using a new route which bypassed their lordships' lands).

 

When the Severn Valley Railway was applying for its Light Railway Order in 1969 and 1970, there were many local objectors. Many did not believe that the people were serious, or even sane; one objector suggested giving them a barn and a Hornby train set. Once open, and people could see the amount of trade that the Railway brought to the town, things changed. When the SVR suffered during the terrible floods in 2007, there were real concerns that the Railway would not reopen. One local, once the service was resumed and on hearing a loco whistle, commented, "The valley's alive again."

[Bernard Lamb]

Not only that you had at the time that daft case where as planning permission was given to build a large station within the national park creating a lot more noise and traffic, yet the locals living nearby who were affected by the new station were refused planning permission to fit double glazing.

There was a similar situation with the Edinburgh tram system. In Leith Walk they intended to hang the overhead wires from the buildings. They neglected to inform the residents at the time. When they found out they were not amused as some had been refused permission to put up brass name plaques.

 

A friend of mine has three buy to rent properties in Wendover that fall within the compensation zones for HS2. He regards the line as a cash cow with an unexpected bonus and can see no sign of any adverse impact on his income.

Bernard

[PhilH]

Another fly in the ointment are new builds in the vicinity of the railway. People think it's a good thing to have a steam railway at the bottom of the garden, move in to their nice new house....and then reality kicks in. For some weird reason there are those who object to sooty washing, smoke, the sounds of a railway disturbing their afternoon naps in the garden.

 

The railway is then in the wrong and should, of course, be shut down.....

[russ p]

What I do object to on preserved railways is d**k head train crew blowing the whistle or horn far too much when its not necessary.

[ForestPines]

AFAIK those who objected to the WHR on the grounds that they thought they owned the trackbed on which their sheep had grazed undisturbed for so long were fairly quickly appraised of whose land it was, and certainly of whose it wasn't, like it or lump it; I imagine the same applies to the L & B scheme. There are issues when they have built structures on the trackbeds, though.

The difference with the L&B is that the majority of the trackbed was sold off to adjoining landowners many many years ago, following the closure of the line. This was not the case with the Welsh Highland.

[ForestPines]

Highway authorities and local governments have prevented at least partial stretches of some preservation schemes because they conflicted with road schemes - Ashburton, Welshpool, Ulverston to Haverthwaite; Bridgnorth itself was threatened by a bypass in the early days of the SVR.

The threat at Bridgnorth was not that the trackbed was needed for the bypass, but that the railway may have been liable for the cost of bridging the bypass. In the event this was not the case, and the bypass was built.

[keefer]

Another fly in the ointment are new builds in the vicinity of the railway. People think it's a good thing to have a steam railway at the bottom of the garden, move in to their nice new house....and then reality kicks in. For some weird reason there are those who object to sooty washing, smoke, the sounds of a railway disturbing their afternoon naps in the garden.

 

The railway is then in the wrong and should, of course, be shut down.....

Happens with the real railway too, even with lines that have existed for decades. Particularly if a line which has seen sparse use becomes a more active route - eg the Kincardine-Alloa line which became busy with heavy freight trains (so they could avoid the Forth Bridge)

[Pacific231G]

ISTR that when it was first being preserved, the Chinnor and Princes Risborough had objections from a local landowner who claimed the railway would disturb the horses in an adjoining field. Some things never change!

[28XX]

I think some people just object because they can. It's one of the few areas in which people think they have power.

 

On the G/WR, when running through Bishop's Cleeve, there is no station, and the trains always seem to slow down to around 10mph. I assume this is to minimise noise for the local residents-can anyone confirm?

The Bishops Cleeve section is notorious for vandalism and fly tipping. That's why there is no station.

[Davexoc]

I think some people just object because they can. It's one of the few areas in which people think they have power.

 

On the G/WR, when running through Bishop's Cleeve, there is no station, and the trains always seem to slow down to around 10mph. I assume this is to minimise noise for the local residents-can anyone confirm?

I think you'll find its due to the speed restriction for the foot crossing at that point.

 

Dave

[Dava]

The high days of new railway line preservation projects are really over, with very few credible new ones in prospect. There are exceptions such as the well-planned Vale of Berkeley [sharpness Branch] http://valeofberkeleyrailway.co.uk/ and no-hopers such as the Poole Harbour Tramway.

 

The bigger challenge is for existing lines and Centres to be able to extend or develop new facilities, such as loco and carriage sheds, to achieve their objectives and maintain their assets. It can take several decades to achieve, as we're seeing with the GCR Bridge to the Future project [MML bridge goes in in two weeks time] and this has included getting all the landowners, interested parties and regulatory bodies on side. There are still a number of millions to raise to complete this project, resulting in an 18 mile main line.

 

It makes more sense to focus on a relatively small number of high quality, sustainable projects rather than lots of incomplete starts. Roll on the KESR to Robertsbridge for example!

 

Dava

[daveyb]

Surely a read of David Shepherd's biographies will give you an idea of the problems associated with preservation plans. The Longmoor Military Railway after ASMT moved north was classic NIMBY.

 

They even had the audacity to ask him for assistance in their objections to the A3 bypass!

[rodent279]

I think you'll find its due to the speed restriction for the foot crossing at that point.

 

Dave

Ah yes, that would make sense.

[sir douglas]

the current southwold railway is having problems with the locals "we're not having a dirty noisy steam train in our village" but without it, the area is nothing but a few houses, even though some expect people to visit the area, the railway is the only thing in the area worth visiting.

 

I personally havent been to southwold or even the entire south east of the country so i wouldnt know, im just paraphrasing whats been said on the railway's own blog

[chris p bacon]

the current southwold railway is having problems with the locals "we're not having a dirty noisy steam train in our village" but without it, the area is nothing but a few houses, even though some expect people to visit the area, the railway is the only thing in the area worth visiting.

 

You get a lovely view of the Nuclear power station from the seafront.

 

I found Southwold an odd place, even in high summer it seemed shut, most of the housing is holiday homes so the town seemed deserted which I'm sure the weekend owners want to keep that way. But for me there is a difference between a quiet town and a ghost town so lets hope the railway shakes it out of its morose slumber.

[PhilH]

What I do object to on preserved railways is d**k head train crew blowing the whistle or horn far too much when its not necessary.

....which half the time is whistling up for d**khead photographers trespassing lineside to get their special shot.....then they don't acknowledge so you have to do it again and so on. We are plagued by them.

Edited August 20, 2017 by PhilH

[MarkC]

Another fly in the ointment are new builds in the vicinity of the railway. People think it's a good thing to have a steam railway at the bottom of the garden, move in to their nice new house....and then reality kicks in. For some weird reason there are those who object to sooty washing, smoke, the sounds of a railway disturbing their afternoon naps in the garden.

 

The railway is then in the wrong and should, of course, be shut down.....

As happened at Loughborough, IIRC?