Inclined sidings - how to stop wagons rolling?

[deepfat]

Hi I am designing my first layout and I want to be able to have sidings at say 1% incline where I can leave rakes of rolling stock in place until collected by another loco.  In the real world brake vans have brakes so is there anyway to emulate that in the world of 00?  I was think either a trackside device e.g. magnet and a modified brake van. controlled by DCC

so has anyone got any ideas or is this madness from a newbie who ought to know better? 

 

details are prewar Southern layout of about 5m x 4m, loosely based around Hastings so necessarily hilly with  DCC control via Hornby e-link and three laptops.

the attached bitmap show the an orange track connecting the turntable to the rest of the layout and I want to drive onto that and lave the rake behind as the loco goes on the turntable

 

[Stubby47]

I've seen a point motor mounted vertically between the rails, so the motion moved a pin up and down - up it blocks the axle of the lead wagon from moving; down it's out of the way.

 

Wire-in-tube could be used to achieve the same, depends on the distance from the operator and if there are any board joints in the way.

[Enterprisingwestern]

A long tuft of grass could be used?

 

MIke.

[woodenhead]

Would sidings ever be on an incline so that wagons could roll away?

 

GW practice (and I presume elsewhere too) was that sidings were below running line level precisely to prevent runaways so they at most should incline away from the running line to a buffer stop.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It would be DIY to install a DCC controlled brake in a brake van.

 

I have done it for a friend, by the simple expedient of putting a motor bogie in the brake van. Needs to be a fair sized type with a deep ballast box to disguise the rather solid intrusion into the underframe space, the LNER B from the Parkside range was selected. To operate with a loco, the van's decoder is consisted with that on the loco, having speed matched the motor bogie to the two locos it works with. That was really simple, scarcely an hour's work.

 

The alternative plan - had this not delivered the goods - was to produce a DCC controlled brake in the van using a slow motion point motor mechanism acting on the wheels. Looked entirely practical but more work, very appealing as the brake would have 'screwed down', no significant intrusion into the underframe space. Probably would have gone for the slightly longer LMS van had this project gone ahead, as it is a little more roomy.

[peach james]

It would be DIY to install a DCC controlled brake in a brake van.

 

I have done it for a friend, by the simple expedient of putting a motor bogie in the brake van. Needs to be a fair sized type with a deep ballast box to disguise the rather solid intrusion into the underframe space, the LNER B from the Parkside range was selected. To operate with a loco, the van's decoder is consisted with that on the loco, having speed matched the motor bogie to the two locos it works with. That was really simple, scarcely an hour's work.

 

The alternative plan - had this not delivered the goods - was to produce a DCC controlled brake in the van using a slow motion point motor mechanism acting on the wheels. Looked entirely practical but more work, very appealing as the brake would have 'screwed down', no significant intrusion into the underframe space. Probably would have gone for the slightly longer LMS van had this project gone ahead, as it is a little more roomy.

 

Been there, done that, have them in Lego.  Work well

 

I think you will find that it was not preferred to have sidings on anything other than level ground.  Bad things happen when you leave waggons on a grade.  Its the law, and it isn't subject to repeal even in Georgia.  (Gravity, that is !).  Wherever possible, I would expect that sidings that were on a grade were accessed from the high end, so that if the waggons did run away, they'd not make their way onto the running lines, but would go elsewhere.

 

The solutions are as above- use a point motor to move a pin up to restrain, use "grass" to add resistance, or add an active element to the train, either a motor bogie or a brake.  The simplest is to add "grass" bearing onto the track, and if I was faced with runaways, that is what I would do.

 

James

[brack]

Just be secondhand kitbuilt wagons from eBay - most of them won't roll anywhere.

[Happy Hippo]

A small bit of foam sponge cut to size and glued to the wagon chassis so that it lightly touches the inside of the wheel flanges usually does the trick.

 

It works prototypically in that it rubs against the wheel and if it does wear out, you can always replace with a new piece.

 

Again, I suppose the same as changing worn brake blocks.

 

Much cheaper and less complicated that some other suggestions.

 

Not my idea, it's been around for years and I've seen in mentioned before on RMWeb.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Deepfat

 

One simple method (depending on how 'visually accurate' your track needs to be) is to leave a slight gap between a rail joint. Alternatively, if you want the wagons to stop in particular places, just snip a 'v' notch out of plain track - but make sure the two notches are exactly opposite!

 

This enables the wheels to 'drop' into the gap.

 

It might be worth experimenting on some bits of old track if you have any. Of course, if you have lots of wagons in the rake, gravity may take over and pull them out. Any excessive gap could be 'hidden' with grass or weeds etc.

 

I use this method in my sorting sidings which slightly run down away from the yard throat.

 

Brian

[The Johnster]

Sidings are not the only places where stock has to be left uncoupled from locos and brake vans, and most modern rtr stock runs very freely.  As there are no working brakes (yet!), there are two ways of dealing with this; you can either retard the progress of the wagons, with foam rubbing against the axles, or card, or similar, or you can 'chock' the wagons with some device in or on the track to hold them against the gradient.  The problem with the latter scenario is that you are restricted to that spot to 'chock' your wagons against, but it can be done almost invisibly with a pin which raises to engage with an axle and then can be lowered out of the way, and out of sight, when you want to move the stock.  The big advantage is that your wagon still runs as freely as it should, and no haulage issues with long trains should result, at least not to any greater extent than they would have anyway!

[Porcy Mane]

Would sidings ever be on an incline so that wagons could roll away?

 

GW practice (and I presume elsewhere too) was that sidings were below running line level precisely to prevent runaways so they at most should incline away from the running line to a buffer stop.

 

Two quarries local to me had sidings that were worked by mainline engines and the works shunters on steep inclines. Photos show that the wagons being shunted always had their brakes dropped (and probably pinned too).

 

P

[DCB]

Just be secondhand kitbuilt wagons from eBay - most of them won't roll anywhere.

Hornby Dublo wagons struggle to run on a 1 in 50.  

I actually used to use an old mainline coach as a spirit level as it would run on less than 1 % grade.

I suspect placing a small super neo magnet or 50 in strategic places to attract metal wheelsets may work, we hear of Kadee uncoupling magnets attracting steel wheels being a problem.

Otherwise a brake operating on one or both axles on a brake van could be good.   I have one planned but making it work is not easy, split chassis pick up operating a solenoid is do able but the actual mechanism is a nightmare for DC.  DCC should be easier but Putting a power bogie under a van sounds a bit OTT unless you want a cut price Toby to keep Thomas the Tank company. 

[kevinlms]

Would sidings ever be on an incline so that wagons could roll away?

 

GW practice (and I presume elsewhere too) was that sidings were below running line level precisely to prevent runaways so they at most should incline away from the running line to a buffer stop.

Agree with this, (but it isn't specifically anything to do with the GWR). Another approach is to have the sidings laid in such a way that departing trains would have to go up a short rise, before reaching the points. That way a(ny) wagon(s) cannot roll out onto the mainline, being prevented from doing so, by that wonderful energy source, called gravity!

[Titan]

Agree with this, (but it isn't specifically anything to do with the GWR). Another approach is to have the sidings laid in such a way that departing trains would have to go up a short rise, before reaching the points. That way a(ny) wagon(s) cannot roll out onto the mainline, being prevented from doing so, by that wonderful energy source, called gravity!

 

Unless the rise is almost as tall as the highest part of the siding, the 'wonderful energy source' will overcome it, either by momentum or the rear part of the train pushing the front over. Plus if the end of the siding has to be at a particular height, then you will have to make the siding even steeper in order to have a short rise before the exit...

Edited August 19, 2017 by Titan

[Dunsignalling]

As you only want the siding to be at a very slight incline (down from the points for the obvious reason) you should be able to get away with laying it level and arranging the scenery so as to create an optical illusion that makes it appear to slope. 

 

A friend's layout has a section that, to most viewers, appears to be on a much more significant gradient but is, in fact, dead level. 

 

John

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

DCC should be easier, but putting a power bogie under a van sounds a bit OTT unless you want a cut price Toby to keep Thomas the Tank company. 

 The power bogie - actually a tender drive - in the van was simple above all else. This unit was to hand from a loco converted to have the drive in the proper place, and a little fiddling around to make it a four wheel unit without traction tyres and fit and programme a decoder was all the work required on the brake provision side. A hole in the brake van floor and blutack pads to mount the body shell on the motor unit completed the job. It's down to the operator not to abuse its incidental tramosity!

 

For my own part a friction brake on the wheels was the preferred solution, driven by a DCC controlled motor. But for that the slo-mo unit had first to be purchased, and the design in my head had to built and then proven as a reliable working job, and a good pick up system devised and installed for the brake van.

[DCB]

Sidings sloping down towards the exit points and running lines being on a downward gradient both caused challenges.

 I think Mottram yard near Manchester on the GC line used gravity for all its shunting instead of using shunting engines.

 

Full size railways don't use baseboards so getting sidings level is not usually too onerous.

 

However apart from wagons escaping backing steam locos uphill for shunting was not good, a rapid start or stop could lead to water uncovering the firebox crown causing the fusible plug to melt and allowing steam to escape into the firebox so stopping the loco.  So when there was any appreciable gradient the sidings tended to slope downhill from a rising gradient.  The siding at my own local station, Chedworth MSWJR was accessed of the downhill gradient and were never opened to the public. Probably because of this very issue.  Subsequently Chedworth Woods siding, also accessed from a downhill slope, probably 1 in 75 were shunted by a loco running tender first to avoid problems with water surging.

Edited August 19, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[Pacific231G]

I'd got with Mike's suggestion of a tuft of grass or something like a series of single bristles (possibly disguised as weeds) just long enough to act on the axles but light and springy enough to easily bend out of the way when pulled or pushed by a loco. That would be a simple and flexible solution.- you could have a few of them along the siding so that a cut of wagons will stay put wherever on the siding you leave them (Thinks..... I've got a couple of sidings that could do with that treatment and I'm sure I've got an old brush somewhere).

Edited August 19, 2017 by Pacific231G

[deepfat]

Thanks all,

I have redesigned the layout (SCARM is good!) to keep things flat. However I like the sponge and magnet suggestions so I will be trying that as my stations are also on slight (1%) inclines and it would again be nice to leave a rake of coaches there is possible and yes mine do roll really wheel except the Pullmans with the pickups - I have SR 8 wheel luggage vans with nothing in them at the moment so plenty of room and my 20 ton brake vans and queen Mary have space too.  All I need know is my builder to finish the loft so I can get cracking

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... like the sponge and magnet suggestions so I will be trying that as my stations are also on slight (1%) inclines and it would again be nice to leave a rake of coaches there ...

 

You may have an interesting balancing act to set up there. To stop the train on 1%, you need equivalent resistance to the gravitational urging: plus a little extra as 'safety', so the train won't start and keep rolling if bumped while uncoupling or attempting to couple up. The effective sum is that the train is on something equivalent to > 2%, and that's what a loco has to pull against when going up the incline, whether bringing the train in, or starting a stationary train uphill.

 

There's been no mention of the traction. If it is to be centre motored diesel/electric twin bogie traction then there is probably no problem, all the grunt anyone could hope for available. Steam, rather more variable: dependent on the designs you wish to use. Expedients to confer sufficient traction may be required: extra weight in locos, magnetic adhesion, paint on traction tyre material, the usual choices.

[Michael Edge]

We have this problem on Cwmafon, hardly any of the track on this layout is level but all the sidings run downwards to the buffer stops. All the wagons have to be very free rolling because they are gravity shunted in the marshalling yard but all brake vans have deliberately stiff bearings so they will usually hold a train on the gradients - any train parked anywhere on the layout must have a loco or a brake van coupled on.

[Armstrong440]

Would sidings ever be on an incline so that wagons could roll away?

 

GW practice (and I presume elsewhere too) was that sidings were below running line level precisely to prevent runaways so they at most should incline away from the running line to a buffer stop.

 

It was also GWR practice to have larger coaling stages at the top of a slope, where the coal wagons would frequently need to be pinned down while they were unloaded.  The solenoid-operated pin between the rails, bearing on a wagon's axle, is both simple and effective.

[DCB]

Hi I am designing my first layout and I want to be able to have sidings at say 1% incline where I can leave rakes of rolling stock in place until collected by another loco.  In the real world brake vans have brakes so is there anyway to emulate that in the world of 00?  I was think either a trackside device e.g. magnet and a modified brake van. controlled by DCC

so has anyone got any ideas or is this madness from a newbie who ought to know better? 

 

details are prewar Southern layout of about 5m x 4m, loosely based around Hastings so necessarily hilly with  DCC control via Hornby e-link and three laptops.

the attached bitmap show the an orange track connecting the turntable to the rest of the layout and I want to drive onto that and lave the rake behind as the loco goes on the turntable

As an alternative.......

After 30 odd years of slightly inclined sidings which modern stock happily rolls out of I had some time to kill yesterday so I finally took a spirit level to them and started to  "Adjust"  the supports to bring them level.   I did the marshalling sidings first and the change in angle as the main line climbs past at 1 in 75 or so is very effective, only trouble is the main line should be descending at that point...   Oh well no running on Thursday, Civil engineers possession while the main line is tweaked.

[Phil Bullock]

Why not kill two birds with one stone?

 

Increase rolling resistance of brake vans (and other tail vehicles in fully fitted trains) by installing working tail lamps working off pick ups bearing on the wheels (or stub axles if you use early Bachmann split axles for this - we do, works well)

 

Pick ups can be adjusted to give you the correct amount of friction

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[SMR CHRIS]

Hi I am designing my first layout and I want to be able to have sidings at say 1% incline where I can leave rakes of rolling stock in place until collected by another loco.  In the real world brake vans have brakes so is there anyway to emulate that in the world of 00?  I was think either a trackside device e.g. magnet and a modified brake van. controlled by DCC

so has anyone got any ideas or is this madness from a newbie who ought to know better? 

 

details are prewar Southern layout of about 5m x 4m, loosely based around Hastings so necessarily hilly with  DCC control via Hornby e-link and three laptops.

the attached bitmap show the an orange track connecting the turntable to the rest of the layout and I want to drive onto that and lave the rake behind as the loco goes on the turntable

I have use fishing line to stop single items of rolling stock from rolling away just tall enough to touch the axle bit like the idea of long grass but can be achieved with a single piece oh line and has no effect when a loco pulls the wagon away.

 

An alternative if you want to allow the wagon to roll down the siding for loading etc is to use a check rail that is activated against the back of the wheel be it manually controlled or electrical.

The check rail will hold the wagon then with a press of the control button will release and the wagon can roll.