Newcomer seeks wiring help

[Off Tackle]

Hi all.

 

I'm considering returning to the hobby after 25 years of debauchery and am slightly overwhelmed by how much I've forgotten. I'd like to build an Inglenook shunting puzzle to see if I actually like operation before committing to a larger scenic project I've wanted to do for a while. The most confusing thing (as I'm sure it is with many in my shoes) is electrics. I've done some research and I think I know how to wire a layout for electrofrog points but I was hoping for some confirmation/feedback/setting me straight before buying anything. I've attached my projected plan below with what I think is the basic wiring. Please tell me in no uncertain terms how wrong I am because I confess to being a bit baffled!

 

 

Cheers

[Pete the Elaner]

Best to keep things as simple as possible.

 

You have 1 controller. The direction switch will be a DPDT so you will not need any more for the layout unless you intend to introduce a second controller. It does not sound like you want to do this though.

It is good practice to isolate after every frog (inside) rail of every point, then re-feed afterwards. This will make the entire layout live, apart from some small sections between frog & rail end of each point. The reason why this is good is that you will have a better understanding of where the power is being fed from & will never have to throw a seemingly unrelated point to provide power or eliminate a short.

I don't know much about double slips because I don't have any. I believe they are complicated though, so if you can remove it from your design, it will make things a lot easier.

It is much easier to have too many isolating joiners & re-feed than it is to have too few then lift track to add an isolating joiner.

 

The above is true for DC or DCC, so you won't have to re-learn any methods if you want to use DCC at a later date.

With DC, you can then choose to isolate any sections with a switch. The layout is controlled by a single controller so you only have to switch 1 rail for each section which you may want to isolate.

[Pete the Elaner]

I hope that hasn't put you off.

It is goof to start with something small because it is rewarding to see something running.

[Off Tackle]

Pete, thanks for the replies, exactly the sort of help I was looking for! As you say, before I start on the layout idea I dream of doing as shown above, I want to knock together an unscenic classic 5-3-3 Inglenook to see if I have the basic concepts right and more to the point - if I enjoy it.

 

So basically if I isolate each electrofrog with insulated fishplates after the frog and drop feeder wires from my main bus, I'm golden? Do I need a bus for a small layout or can I just use a sort of bridging feed (sorry I really don't know anything!)? As I understand it I'll need to switch the polarity of the points as well - is that correct? I've removed the slip from the plan as well  - I like the look of slips but they also intimidate me so I'll take your advice

 

[28XX]

Yup. That will work. You don't need anything resembling a bus for a short layout like this. Just keep the wiring tidy and sensibly laid out for reliability and maintenance. Get stuck in!

[Grovenor]

But if you want to have more than one loco on the track at a time, then you need someway to isolate sections, either by using the self isolating feature of electrofrogs or by putting switches in the feeds as you did in your first diagram. Just having everything live from a single controller restricts you to one loco on the layout.

I would use three switched feeds on that layout and let the self isolation do the rest, simple and flexible to operate.

The only tricky bit is the diamond crossing, if it is an electrofrog diamond you need to set up switching from the adjacent points, if its an insulfrog diamond you avoid that at the risk of occasional stalls.

Regards

[DCB]

That short diamond rather complicates matters.

Really there are two ways to do this, well 3 if you include DCC, Either electrofrog which means a DPDT centre off switch for the short diamond, or  stick to Insulfrog.  The short diamond is going to be where the stalling takes place so an insulfrog diamond in an otherwise electrofrog layout makes no sense.

Insulfrog will work with just three feeds using DPDT switches as Single pole on/off  in the places shown X Y Z on my diagram or without switches if you don't want to run more than one loco at a time.

Electrofrog will need a DPDT switch for that short diamond to change the frog polarity in relation to the other feeds and needs to be centre off if you want an on/off facility. You could use a relay and a switch on an adjacent point but with such complex movements it will probably be more trouble than its worth.  

DCC will obviously get horribly complicated with frog juicers and other devices best left to Dumbledore and the other experts at Hogwarts castle unless you ditch the short diamond.

Edited August 24, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[Pete the Elaner]

But if you want to have more than one loco on the track at a time, then you need someway to isolate sections, either by using the self isolating feature of electrofrogs or by putting switches in the feeds as you did in your first diagram. Just having everything live from a single controller restricts you to one loco on the layout.

I would use three switched feeds on that layout and let the self isolation do the rest, simple and flexible to operate.

The only tricky bit is the diamond crossing, if it is an electrofrog diamond you need to set up switching from the adjacent points, if its an insulfrog diamond you avoid that at the risk of occasional stalls.

Regards

That will work but use self-isolation or isolation & re-feeding, but not both.

The second diagram is for isolation & re-feeding.

 

I would choose to isolate each point & re-feed afterwards for the following reasons:

It is easier to troubleshoot in case of a fault. Self-isolating can lead to issues where power is being supplied by a point somewhere else on the layout, which makes it hard to find. Smaller sections of anything are easier to troubleshoot. I have spent a few hours chasing faults on a friend's layout because he chose to switch power to sidings/loops by using the points.

If you want to switch a siding from permanently live to switched, all you need to do is add a switch & you won't need to lift any points.

Rail joiners are electrically a weak link & can be a cause volt drop, so the less rail joiners you rely on to carry current, the better.

You won't have to learn anything new to wire up a DCC layout should you want to give this a try in future. The only difference is that you would want all sidings permanently live for DCC.

 

Electrofrog points will work out of the box & switch their own frog power. Many of us prefer to switch the frog separately because it is more reliable once set up properly, especially when the points become a little older & have been weathered/ballasted which you have suggested you do not want to do for this layout. It is extra work which sounds unnecessary for this layout.

You would have to choose this before laying any track because you need to snip a couple of short connectors under the point in order to switch frogs externally.

 

You may still need to switch power for the crossing though.

 

For section switching, single pole on/off switches will be sufficient. Just choose a colour (red or green in your diagram) & place all the switches on the same colour. The complications of common return which you may have read about only apply if you have 2 or more sections fed by separate controllers.

[Chimer]

Going back to post #4, before the advice became rather more complicated, you're missing a necessary feed between the second and third points from the left (i.e. the two points that replaced the double slip).

 

And I don't know if you're intending to use Code 75 or Code 100.  If Code 100, the short crossing only comes in insulfrog so that debate goes away .....

 

Cheers, Chris

[Suzie]

A double slip is just two points overlaid so changing it for two points does not simplify anything, and a diamond is no problem, just feed the frogs from the frogs on the nearby points and feed the main rails direct from your controller.

[Off Tackle]

Hey thanks for all the replies everyone, this is all really informative and helpful stuff. I'm definitely going to go the refeeding route. David, many thanks for the diagrams! Chimer, I'm planning on using Code 75 so the diamond would be electrofrog - when Suzie says feed the frogs from the frogs on the nearby points am I right in thinking that she means you link the polarity switching from the point frogs to the respective frogs on the diamond?

 

Grovenor - yes, I think an isolating section and maybe switching sections would be good, as my idea is to have an inglenook sequence that sometimes gets interrupted by the arrival of another train (the 5 wagon siding of the inglenook 5-3-3 will be the run-round loop, for operational interest).

 

One further query - if I isolate a double slip with insulated fishplates, power it, and switch polarities on the frogs as one would with a normal electrofrog point, that would work wouldn't it? Replacing the slip does extend my layout a little and I've done some armchair research and fancy giving it a crack. Famous last words......!

 

Many thanks again everyone.

[Suzie]

...when Suzie says feed the frogs from the frogs on the nearby points am I right in thinking that she means you link the polarity switching from the point frogs to the respective frogs on the diamond?...

Yes

 

Using David's diagram, the violet feed comes from the frog of the point on the right, and the blue feed comes from the right hand frog of the double slip. Red feed comes from the olive controller feed, and green feed comes from the red controller feed - no need for switch 'A'.

[Off Tackle]

Great, thanks Suzie

[Junctionmad]

Having chased faults around a friends DC layout recently and discovered issues where section breaks didn't . I would echo some advice here ( and I'm reminded why I use DCC , it's simplier ! )

 

I would suggest don't mix the scheme of all live track, insulted point exits and then add in switched section isolation. simply switch the feed itself , the two schemes together seem to generate confusion

 

I would add that in a layout with a considerable number of sidings , rather then loops , switching the siding via the point , does remove a considerable number of wires.

[Junctionmad]

Pete, thanks for the replies, exactly the sort of help I was looking for! As you say, before I start on the layout idea I dream of doing as shown above, I want to knock together an unscenic classic 5-3-3 Inglenook to see if I have the basic concepts right and more to the point - if I enjoy it.

 

So basically if I isolate each electrofrog with insulated fishplates after the frog and drop feeder wires from my main bus, I'm golden? Do I need a bus for a small layout or can I just use a sort of bridging feed (sorry I really don't know anything!)? As I understand it I'll need to switch the polarity of the points as well - is that correct? I've removed the slip from the plan as well - I like the look of slips but they also intimidate me so I'll take your advice

 

Plan 2.jpg

This is not a practical solution, because you need isolation, so simply add DPST switches inline with your feeds to create dead sections to isolate locos ( assuming you are insulating the electrofrog track joints )

 

However as I maintained before, this generates a lot of wiring, when using the power steering effect of points allows for a simplier approach, particularly since you suggest it's temporary

Edited September 3, 2017 by Junctionmad

[Ron Solly]

And you can always read this site

http://brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.html