Sound Effect manipulation for custom whistles

[844fan]

Hey all,

Got a bit of a technical question for all my fellows who know sound effect engineering than I do. So recently I got some audio and video clips at a local convention called "The American Thresherman's" this event is held in August and October around here and is a celebration of steam, petrol/gas, and diesel based farming machines most of which are Traction Engines they even have a small locomotive like the R&ER 15 inch running. Now as I said I got some clips from the show and want to use them for a project I'm doing. 

 

My problem is I only have short chirps of whistles blowing like what you'd here in (please bear with me on my example here best example that comes to mind.) Thomas and Friends when the engines would pass each other and whistle a quick "peep peep" as a greeting. But I want to also have Long blasts od the whistle note for all whistle signals I may want to or need like a Long bellow or a even shorter chirp so I can piece them together in the proper codes.

 

I unfortunately have not yet figured out how to do this whith the Audacity editing program with out it sounding clearly like I made it off. I'm not sure anyone here knows anything about the subject but I thought I'd give it a try see what turns up.

 

Thanks for the time,

844fan

[Oldddudders]

You might Google Digitrax Playable Whistle, and Tsunami Playable Whistle.

[The Johnster]

I'm not sure you can do this in Audacity; mind, I only use it for music recording and conversion to mp3 format, and very basic editing.  But as far as I can see it is an editing app, not a sound manipulation one, and you might be better off with one of the sound creation apps.  The only way that you might be able to achieve longer whistles with Audacity as far as I can make out is to stitch edit shorter bursts together, which would I suspect be difficult to do without ending up with a sort of hiccuppy effect...

[844fan]

I'm not sure you can do this in Audacity; mind, I only use it for music recording and conversion to mp3 format, and very basic editing.  But as far as I can see it is an editing app, not a sound manipulation one, and you might be better off with one of the sound creation apps.  The only way that you might be able to achieve longer whistles with Audacity as far as I can make out is to stitch edit shorter bursts together, which would I suspect be difficult to do without ending up with a sort of hiccuppy effect...

Indeed I'm looking into every option but I've tried that method stiching together and it has that hiccup like if you take sections of a soundbyte to create a new sentence. YTP kind of stuff and that is not what I want. Also I forgot to ask this before but is there a easy way to find out what note is being played? In this case it is a single chime from a small loco I know most whistles use multiple chimes to achive the note they produce but this is only a single.

 

Start small for pitch checks.

[The Johnster]

I'm pretty sure that the relevant societies, Great Western Society for example, could tell you what note and in what key whistles were tuned to, but of course it isn't that simple, because drivers could 'bend' the notes jazz musician style with a bit of practice on the whistle cord!  What is the small loco?  There may be an app that can identify what note is being played on your smartphone; if mine can tell me what song is playing and show the lyrics in real time, yours can probably identify a single note.  I have a chum who is into this sort of thing and will ask him next time I see him if I remember for you.

 

Confession time.  I live alone (the following may go some way to explaining why) and have nobody to mock me when I'm operating my railway, so I happily make chuff chuff noises (4 per driving wheel revolution; very good for judging speed) and can reproduce a GWR whistle, by singing not whistling it, including the 'bending', to my own satisfaction.  Your approach, when you have ironed out the problems, will probably attract less out and out understandable disdain and avoidance of eye contact with the nutter from your fellow creatures...

 

A locomotive involved in shunting whistles quite a lot, firstly because it's in a good mood of course, but mostly to communicate to the signalman that it is clear of points or signals or to a shunter on the ground that the driver has seen and understood his handsignals; it will also give a toot before moving off from a stand, and it's normal whistling duties warning people around the track of it's presence or imminent approach.  Large yards had whistle codes to indicate certain sidings or movements to signalmen, and, with a few locos working at the same time, could be sonically 'interesting'!

 

The reason locomotives are fitted with whistles is that it would just be silly if the driver whistled.  Drivers, until the invention of the steam whistle in the 1840s IIRC (I was only a lad in the 1840s), blew hunting horns as warning of approach, tantivy tantivy...

[Oldddudders]

The DCC Sound thread, which includes at least someone who has made his own files, may have some expertise to offer. I should have noted earlier that there is a better place for this discussion. 

 

Give them a chance to comment? if you 'report' this thread and ask politely for it to be transferred there you might learn more. 

[BG John]

Confession time.  I live alone (the following may go some way to explaining why) and have nobody to mock me when I'm operating my railway, so I happily make chuff chuff noises (4 per driving wheel revolution; very good for judging speed) and can reproduce a GWR whistle, by singing not whistling it, including the 'bending', to my own satisfaction.  Your approach, when you have ironed out the problems, will probably attract less out and out understandable disdain and avoidance of eye contact with the nutter from your fellow creatures...

The perfect solution. Have you got recordings you can share, and can you produce other sounds to order?

[The Johnster]

The problem with recording my chuff chuffs, whistles, brake squeals, vacuum pumps, block instrument bells, and so on is that they sound fine inside my head.  You know when you hear your own voice recorded and it doesn't sound like you?  Well, that's why my noises would sound wrong if they were recorded from anywhere outside my head.  And I'm not sticking a microphone inside my head or anywhere else inside Johnster's insides; there's enough trouble, and plenty of noise from the creaking woodwork and grinding gears, in there already thank you very much.

 

That is my excuse and I'm sticking to it!

 

I can, however, thoroughly recommend developing your own repertoire, modulated and pitched to your own requirements.  If you can do a reasonable chime whistle, A4 style, you will have achieved something I have never managed.  We will all be most interested to hear it!  I can do a pretty good London Underground/Southern Electric Westinghouse air pump chunka chunka chunka for a GW man, though...

 

As a GW man, I can't do walcheart's valve gear clonks properly either, 15xx or no 15xx.

Edited August 31, 2017 by The Johnster

[844fan]

 

Confession time.  I live alone (the following may go some way to explaining why) and have nobody to mock me when I'm operating my railway, so I happily make chuff chuff noises (4 per driving wheel revolution; very good for judging speed) and can reproduce a GWR whistle, by singing not whistling it, including the 'bending', to my own satisfaction.  Your approach, when you have ironed out the problems, will probably attract less out and out understandable disdain and avoidance of eye contact with the nutter from your fellow creatures...

 

A locomotive involved in shunting whistles quite a lot, firstly because it's in a good mood of course, but mostly to communicate to the signalman that it is clear of points or signals or to a shunter on the ground that the driver has seen and understood his handsignals; it will also give a toot before moving off from a stand, and it's normal whistling duties warning people around the track of it's presence or imminent approach.  Large yards had whistle codes to indicate certain sidings or movements to signalmen, and, with a few locos working at the same time, could be sonically 'interesting'!

I find absolutely nothing wrong with this not even the slightest. Heck I do it and I live with my family though I must say I'm impressed if you truly can match the piston strokes timing so well I often make it only ever half a turn and I know a engine puffs four times per wheel turn after all they are quartered for a reason (and frankly again back to Thomas is the largest complaint I have in the CGI series. The engines except for the one based off Rocket all have their coupling rods dead even so if one side is at 12:00 the other side is too. Have none of those animators ridden a bike? that's the only reason we can push the peddles is they are off set but to be fair on inside cylinder engines the pistons are quartered though the valve gear is completely unrealistic.) So props for that.

 

My reason for it is I've always liked trying to mimic sounds of things I like. The hiss of steam from a drain cock, the clanking or thudding of giant robots (Which I can imitate the sound they make when transforming too.) and so much more. I have deep respect for the foley artists and one of my favorite jokes in any movie is Spaceballs with the guy imitating the Radar and intercom mad respect to that man as he made a career of it. One of the reasons I want to be a Voice Actor as well as writer.

 

The DCC Sound thread, which includes at least someone who has made his own files, may have some expertise to offer. I should have noted earlier that there is a better place for this discussion. 

 

Give them a chance to comment? if you 'report' this thread and ask politely for it to be transferred there you might learn more. 

Hmm a good idea. I'll try and figure out how to go about it.

 

The problem with recording my chuff chuffs, whistles, brake squeals, vacuum pumps, block instrument bells, and so on is that they sound fine inside my head.  You know when you hear your own voice recorded and it doesn't sound like you?  Well, that's why my noises would sound wrong if they were recorded from anywhere outside my head.  And I'm not sticking a microphone inside my head or anywhere else inside Johnster's insides; there's enough trouble, and plenty of noise from the creaking woodwork and grinding gears, in there already thank you very much.

 

That is my excuse and I'm sticking to it!

 

I can, however, thoroughly recommend developing your own repertoire, modulated and pitched to your own requirements.  If you can do a reasonable chime whistle, A4 style, you will have achieved something I have never managed.  We will all be most interested to hear it!  I can do a pretty good London Underground/Southern Electric Westinghouse air pump chunka chunka chunka for a GW man, though...

 

As a GW man, I can't do walcheart's valve gear clonks properly either, 15xx or no 15xx.

Don't I know it. I knew my voice sounded young for my age due to hormone troubles I only learned I had. But hearing a playback it is kind of weird how I sound to my own ears but that may lie in the engineering of the audio too. I mean I do a spot on impresion of Strong Mad and Strong Sad from Homestar Runner both ways and my friends say I imitate a VA of Sonic The Hedgehog (No not Mr. White this guy we jokingly call Irish Sonic as we know he is from Ireland but we forget his name too often) but in my head it sounds off so I suppose it's one of those cases of "That sounded better in my head." for all of us who like to make sounds.

[The Johnster]

Methodology is as follows. Chuffs are actually a sort of exhalation with an 'urrgh' overlaid with a 'Tfffa' sound, the t being softer as the cut off is wound back and the regulator closed with the 'a' at the end being cut back and diminishing as well; 4 per driving wheel revolution on the noon, and 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions, but slightly uneven with a bit of 'swing' unless the loco is fresh out of works..  Full on starts with 56xx or 42xx are a full bodied 'whoompfff',  GWR vacuum pumps are a sort of 'tss tss tss 1 per pump stroke, i.e per revolution of the driving wheel.  Buffering up is a sort of 'cloc', 'cloc phfffff very slightly and fading in the case of pneumatic buffers.  Whistles are a sung 'ooo', with rising or falling pitch at the end or to suit, guard's whistles are a sort of 'tree'ee,eeup' as high as I can go.  I do not have the whistling skills to do these by whistling, and they are not very good.  A sort of 'urghhh tick tick tick', fading in volume, is the noise for a destroyed vacuum, and a  bit of a 'tick tick, tick... tick' for recreating it as the brakes blow off.  Bit of a 'clonk' as a coupling is dropped on to a hook sometimes, and 'linggggg' as it hits the underside of the wagon when it's uncoupled, but not for screw couplings.

 

Blowing safety valves are a problem, as I can't sustain them for more than about 10 seconds without running out of breath, but a similar loud 'shhhhs' if fine for ejectors , sometimes developing into a cyclic 'fssshht fssshht fsssht' as the loco moves off in a cloud of imaginary steam.

 

Who needs TTS.

 

(actually, me, from the sound of things...)

 

Haven't managed to distort my vocal cords or exhalations into a passable check rail scream yet.

 

I intend to cut indentations into the rail surface at suitable intervals with a slitting disc to generate wheel beats.

Edited September 1, 2017 by The Johnster

[844fan]

Methodology is as follows. Chuffs are actually a sort of exhalation with an 'urrgh' overlaid with a 'Tfffa' sound, the t being softer as the cut off is wound back and the regulator closed with the 'a' at the end being cut back and diminishing as well; 4 per driving wheel revolution on the noon, and 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions, but slightly uneven with a bit of 'swing' unless the loco is fresh out of works..  Full on starts with 56xx or 42xx are a full bodied 'whoompfff',  GWR vacuum pumps are a sort of 'tss tss tss 1 per pump stroke, i.e per revolution of the driving wheel.  Buffering up is a sort of 'cloc', 'cloc phfffff very slightly and fading in the case of pneumatic buffers.  Whistles are a sung 'ooo', with rising or falling pitch at the end or to suit, guard's whistles are a sort of 'tree'ee,eeup' as high as I can go.  I do not have the whistling skills to do these by whistling, and they are not very good.  A sort of 'urghhh tick tick tick', fading in volume, is the noise for a destroyed vacuum, and a  bit of a 'tick tick, tick... tick' for recreating it as the brakes blow off.  Bit of a 'clonk' as a coupling is dropped on to a hook sometimes, and 'linggggg' as it hits the underside of the wagon when it's uncoupled, but not for screw couplings.

 

Blowing safety valves are a problem, as I can't sustain them for more than about 10 seconds without running out of breath, but a similar loud 'shhhhs' if fine for ejectors , sometimes developing into a cyclic 'fssshht fssshht fsssht' as the loco moves off in a cloud of imaginary steam.

 

Who needs TTS.

 

(actually, me, from the sound of things...)

 

Haven't managed to distort my vocal cords or exhalations into a passable check rail scream yet.

 

I intend to cut indentations into the rail surface at suitable intervals with a slitting disc to generate wheel beats.

Thank you for the Vocal Foley advice my friend. I'll try to put it to good use.

 

Smart idea for a railway without the Tricity Trop of fish plate bending and clnking is hardly a proper sounding line. 

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Hey all,

Got a bit of a technical question for all my fellows who know sound effect engineering than I do. So recently I got some audio and video clips at a local convention called "The American Thresherman's" this event is held in August and October around here and is a celebration of steam, petrol/gas, and diesel based farming machines most of which are Traction Engines they even have a small locomotive like the R&ER 15 inch running. Now as I said I got some clips from the show and want to use them for a project I'm doing. 

 

My problem is I only have short chirps of whistles blowing like what you'd here in (please bear with me on my example here best example that comes to mind.) Thomas and Friends when the engines would pass each other and whistle a quick "peep peep" as a greeting. But I want to also have Long blasts od the whistle note for all whistle signals I may want to or need like a Long bellow or a even shorter chirp so I can piece them together in the proper codes.

 

I unfortunately have not yet figured out how to do this whith the Audacity editing program with out it sounding clearly like I made it off. I'm not sure anyone here knows anything about the subject but I thought I'd give it a try see what turns up.

 

Thanks for the time,

844fan

I have considerable experience of splicing and chopping sound files. First is to obtain an adequately long whistle play with no wavering in the middle. This can frequently preclude recording in a station as doppler effect will ruin your chances. Asking the train crew on a preserved line to give a three second whistle blow at full strength is the best option.

 

Audacity then receives the WAV files created and it pays for those to be to CD standard. The whistle file seen on screen will have a lead in and you then need to zoom in and find a cut point where the 'waves' cross the median line. Then you go and repeat the exercise at the tail end. Save both files to the parameters specified in the decoder manual. You are left with a 2 second blast. Play that in Audacity on aloop setting. Any hiccups will be apparent. Start chopping the file in zoom mode until you have one that doesn't hiccup. Save that in WAV. Any saves in Audacity will be done by 'export' rather than 'save'. Keep the original file intact by saving. An Audacity project file is juts as good.

 

Now load the three files into your decoder and use F2 as the recipient. Go into the file and make the centre file on 'loop'. Done well you now have a whistle file that will play all the time you have F2 depressed. I use F2 as that is the one used on Digitrax which I have.

 

It is a lot of work and can be fraught in the extreme but get it right and get up to speed on the layout and give along blast as you pass a whistle sign. Magic!

[844fan]

I have considerable experience of splicing and chopping sound files. First is to obtain an adequately long whistle play with no wavering in the middle. This can frequently preclude recording in a station as doppler effect will ruin your chances. Asking the train crew on a preserved line to give a three second whistle blow at full strength is the best option.

 

Audacity then receives the WAV files created and it pays for those to be to CD standard. The whistle file seen on screen will have a lead in and you then need to zoom in and find a cut point where the 'waves' cross the median line. Then you go and repeat the exercise at the tail end. Save both files to the parameters specified in the decoder manual. You are left with a 2 second blast. Play that in Audacity on aloop setting. Any hiccups will be apparent. Start chopping the file in zoom mode until you have one that doesn't hiccup. Save that in WAV. Any saves in Audacity will be done by 'export' rather than 'save'. Keep the original file intact by saving. An Audacity project file is juts as good.

 

Now load the three files into your decoder and use F2 as the recipient. Go into the file and make the centre file on 'loop'. Done well you now have a whistle file that will play all the time you have F2 depressed. I use F2 as that is the one used on Digitrax which I have.

 

It is a lot of work and can be fraught in the extreme but get it right and get up to speed on the layout and give along blast as you pass a whistle sign. Magic!

Well I'm not sure if this can help me as for the moment I'm not encoding DCC sound. Though the editing of sound clips and methodology are on the same level. Seein as I'm hoping to use these for video productions till I do get to DCC encoding (Long story short I have no room in my house for a layout at this time) would you be willing to coach me in editing these? I recorded the current one myself as a MP3 but it can be reformated to Wav when the time comes.

 

Also before any arguments start on why I posted here when I'm not encoding for DCC is as my friend Olddudders said those with the skill and knowledge I needed would more likely be here and it's technically not false I do plan to encode them onto a chip one day but for now I want to learn how to make the whistles I need for any occasion.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Well I'm not sure if this can help me as for the moment I'm not encoding DCC sound. Though the editing of sound clips and methodology are on the same level. Seein as I'm hoping to use these for video productions till I do get to DCC encoding (Long story short I have no room in my house for a layout at this time) would you be willing to coach me in editing these? I recorded the current one myself as a MP3 but it can be reformated to Wav when the time comes.

 

Also before any arguments start on why I posted here when I'm not encoding for DCC is as my friend Olddudders said those with the skill and knowledge I needed would more likely be here and it's technically not false I do plan to encode them onto a chip one day but for now I want to learn how to make the whistles I need for any occasion.

Ditch the MP3 recordings. The damage done by encoding is quite a lot. Even a CD standard wave file is going to be a lot flatter when put into a suitable format for use in a sound decoder and it is a one way street hence my suggestion to save the original. There is some advantage in sound quality using Zimo but in truth it is the installation in the loco that makes the difference.

 

I have done installations of decoders/speakers in the boiler space and speakers in the tender. Most have been really good and attracted praise where they have been used for public display.

 

The construction of a decoder sound file takes hours and hours and can frequently culminate in total failure. Home grown recordings from a moving train are near always ruined by wind noise. I have recording equipment which allows long distance, sensitive recording and that has proved reliable for basic recording files without undue background noise. Remember that modern decoders can and do play a variety of tracks on demand but in essence one steam engine sounds pretty much like any other except for chuff rate and the whistle.

 

I can't offer coaching lessons easily and it can't be done on here easily as the sound files cannot be transferred.

 

If you are a long way off starting to do this, I would counsel caution in terms of expense and high failure rate. Without doubt an absorbing hobby that can be very engaging but one or two on here have turned it into a business and they may well have what you need without the hassle.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Lady_Ava_Hay
added chuff rate