Spotting the Scotsman...

[Sir Hadyn]

That is a very enjoyable video for those of us who wondered why so much money was spent on such an over-hyped locomotive.  

 

Is it right to take pleasure in someone else's misfortune?

[Ed-farms]

I think some people forgot it visited Grosmont last year and took on the 1 in 49 no problem, so surely any slipping or stalling on the bank was down to handling by GWR enginemen who don't know how to drive a proper engine

[Froxfield2012]

Is it right to take pleasure in someone else's misfortune?

 

 

Frankly, I don't think it was much of a misfortune?  A real accident would have been something else.  As I tried to indicate, FS was being asked to do something it wasn't designed to do.  And, I am sorry, but it was genuinely amusing to see the Hall coming to the rescue.

 

I realise your connection to the NRM, but I am also afraid that I think the project to restore FS to running order went way over the top.  And I find the media hype mixing the locomotive with the justifiably famous train of the same name somewhat irritating.  Just my opinion, of course, and I realise that it justifies my status as "grumpy old man".

 

However, I purchased a model of FS from the NRM site just recently so I can't be that irritated.  I hope to be back for more of the National Collection in Miniature by way of support when I have the funds. 

[Froxfield2012]

I think some people forgot it visited Grosmont last year and took on the 1 in 49 no problem, so surely any slipping or stalling on the bank was down to handling by GWR enginemen who don't know how to drive a proper engine

 

I don't think it is possible to end the debate between the GWR and the rest however much humour is employed:  not to mention the rumour that it took a GWR man to sort out the Gresley bearings!  I do see the Jester emoji but I have no idea how to illustrate my humorous intent here!!!

[Steamport Southport]

Is it right to take pleasure in someone else's misfortune?

 

I was under the impression that we owned it?

 

So we can take whatever pleasure in it's fortunes as we please. We're paying for it. Those in the LNER museum (sorry, National Railway Museum) should remember that.

 

 

Some of us may even be quite happy to see it join it's "Doncaster brothers" to quote Gordon.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Dunsignalling]

Frankly, I don't think it was much of a misfortune?  A real accident would have been something else.  As I tried to indicate, FS was being asked to do something it wasn't designed to do.  And, I am sorry, but it was genuinely amusing to see the Hall coming to the rescue.

 

I realise your connection to the NRM, but I am also afraid that I think the project to restore FS to running order went way over the top.  And I find the media hype mixing the locomotive with the justifiably famous train of the same name somewhat irritating.  Just my opinion, of course, and I realise that it justifies my status as "grumpy old man".

 

However, I purchased a model of FS from the NRM site just recently so I can't be that irritated.  I hope to be back for more of the National Collection in Miniature by way of support when I have the funds. 

Later in the week I witnessed (via the BL webcam) 60103 departing for Minehead with rear end assistance provided by one of the WSR BRCW Type 3 diesels.

 

Not sure how far it went like that, but not all the way because the Crompton returned light engine later in the afternoon. I would have thought from Crowcombe Heathfield (if the box was open) but its arrival time suggested Williton was the turn-round point.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

Of course, as you are right to remind us, it was Alan Pegler's choice:  I remember seeing FS go through Reading (light engine) shortly after the purchase.  But it always seemed sad to me that Papyrus (the locomotive with all the proper documented evidence of the 100mph run) did not survive.  It just indicates the random nature of which engines were saved for preservation.  All steam locomotives being something of a "Trigger's Broom".

 

And I agree wholeheartedly about Class 8 locomotives and branch lines: always reminds me of tigers pacing around cages in zoos particularly when condemned to run tender first.  Which is why, I suppose, we have just got back from a trip to the WSR hauled by 60009.  I thought it ran particularly well doing what it was designed to do.  It will be sad to see it retired and passed to a museum in a year or so.

I have always suspected the reason no A3 was scheduled by the BRB for preservation back in the day was the fixation those selecting candidate locos had for them being in as-built condition. The status of many of the more notable A3s having been rebuilt from A1s and/or fitted with A4 boilers would have counted against them.

 

Elsewhere, Sir Dinadan survived in preference to King Arthur because the latter had received a more modern tender in the 1950s. No Merchant Navy apart from the one sectioned to demonstrate the ultimate development of British steam traction (go on, bite,  somebody!) and quite how the superheated T9 slipped through is a bit of a mystery.  

 

The "Midland" compound 1000 actually has a Somerset & Dorset tender off a 7F 2-8-0, which was built with a tender cab and has been (not entirely successfully) disguised as the genuine article.

 

John

Edited September 12, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Sir Hadyn]

I was under the impression that we owned it?

 

So we can take whatever pleasure in it's fortunes as we please. We're paying for it. Those in the LNER museum (sorry, National Railway Museum) should remember that.

 

 

Some of us may even be quite happy to see it join it's "Doncaster brothers" to quote Gordon.

 

 

 

 

Jason

Jason, when did you last visit York and count how many LNER locos are on display there? And would you REALLY be happy to see the A3 go the way of all flesh?

 

I obviously appear to have mislaid my sense of humour this week and will withdraw from any further comment on this subject.

 

My kettle remains on however for anyone who wants to have a chat and really know how the NRM ticks

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sir Hadyn

[81C]

I see that pile metal couldn't pull a train up a small incline on the West Somerset Railway someone there blamed the wet rails what a load of tosh doesn't the thing have sanding gear.

[The Johnster]

I suspect this thread has veered from the ability to be a place of sensible or constructive discussion.  You can't compare Crowcombe bank with a speed restriction of 25mph to anywhere on the ECML that a loco can get a run at, no allowance has been made for coal quality which is an increasingly problematic issue for locomotives designed in the 1920s, and a 4-6-0 with 6' driving wheels is designed for different work to a Pacific with 6'8" ones, as well as in a different way in the case of Flying Scotsman and it's assistant in rear.

 

One cannot expect track maintained for 25mph working to be as smooth as that on Shap, with all due respect to the WSR's per way teams, and this may have had a bearing on the loco's performances as well.  Bit of leeway, guys, please!  The loco lost traction and slipped to a standstill from a very low speed before it could recover, which could happen to any loco that encounters railhead conditions it doesn't like.  Steam pressure was kept up; the loco did not 'run out of puff' as the BBC so incorrectly (as usual) put it.

Edited September 12, 2017 by The Johnster

[Froxfield2012]

Jason, when did you last visit York and count how many LNER locos are on display there? And would you REALLY be happy to see the A3 go the way of all flesh?

 

I obviously appear to have mislaid my sense of humour this week and will withdraw from any further comment on this subject.

 

My kettle remains on however for anyone who wants to have a chat and really know how the NRM ticks

 

 

Oh dear.  I would hate to think I had upset you.  Regrettably, it is many a moon since I lived in Yorkshire and was easily able to visit York.  Once upon a time, we lived near Tadcaster and it was easy.  However, one doesn't have to visit to see that the locomotives available are not biased towards the LNER?  The website is close enough.  In any event the original "national collection" was a relatively small group of locomotives and chosen so many years ago that it would be difficult to criticise the choice with real understanding?  Significant GWR locomotives are on loan to STEAM in Swindon, which I happen to think is the right place for them.  I wouldn't want to see them recalled to York to "balance" the display there!

 

The private preservation movement has reached proportions that I, for one, never imagined would happen when Pegler bought FS and some lads thought they could rescue a 14XX.  Of course, the private preservation movement collection has its own bias.  I suspect BR Standards and Bulleid Pacifics are over-represented:  for purely practical reasons.  We are fortunate indeed to have both public and private interests preserving steam.  Back in the 1960s, I thought steam had gone forever.  The challenge now, of course, is to keep it going as the skills of driving and maintenance will inevitably pass away unless the younger generation can be enthused.

 

Despite my views on the FS project, I appreciate the efforts of the NRM.  I would love to accept the invitation to a cup of tea if I could ever manage to get near York.  You have been warned!

[Sir Hadyn]

Mr F, you haven't upset me. Perhaps I just care too much - being a Curator and all that.

 

I love the museum and the collection and have seen a LOT of the FS story over the last 20 years, and that's perhaps why I take it more personally than I should.

 

I need to separate business from pleasure, but sometimes it's hard to step back when folks say things.

 

That tea is on me, and you're very very welcome. Those who have met me in person apparently say I'm much nicer than people think I am!

[Zomboid]

It could have been given a shove by a Bulleid (in theory at least, doubt they have one at the WSR). That would have been amusingly ironic.

[Classsix T]

Sorry, given the thread title and last two pages of water boiling infighting, did anyone get the number?

 

C6T.

[The Johnster]

60103.

[PhilH]

Lot of nonsense on this thread from people who have never done the job. I won't add to it but at least I do the job and get stuck on occasion on our 1in 60....

[avonside1563]

I'm very disappointed to see that this thread has descended into levels I would only expect from contributors on another forum with the initials NP. I thought everyone on RMWeb was above such petty comments as some written here.

 

I quite agree with PhilH, if you've ever been on the footplate in adverse circumstances you would know there are times when it doesn't matter what you do sometimes the conditions are just too extreme. I do feel that some of the comments come down to the old saying; 'Those that can, do... and those that can't talk about it'.

[Guest Midland Mole]

I quite agree with PhilH, if you've ever been on the footplate in adverse circumstances you would know there are times when it doesn't matter what you do sometimes the conditions are just too extreme. I do feel that some of the comments come down to the old saying; 'Those that can, do... and those that can't talk about it'.

 

I would hardly call those conditions particularly adverse, the rails were only slightly damp. I'm sure Hovering Highlander is far from the first pacific or large express type loco to pull a train that length, up that bank, in those conditions. Also, I'm not aware of many comments in this thread which are blaming the crew for what happened, I know I certainly am not. Most of the negative comments in this thread are about the loco, and that is what I find funny: the failure of the loco in getting up the bank.

 

And trust me, I would even be having this conversation or paying much attention to a story like this if the loco involved was not put on a pedestal by people, treated like some golden beacon for the nation. Of course it is exactly because of the over hyped nature of 4472 that this story even exists! No one would bother reporting it for any other engine, with the possible exception of Tornado. It's not like I just get some sick enjoyment out of seeing steam engine failing, quite the opposite. I well remember when the Dukdog had to reverse its train back down to a station on the SVR because it could not make it up the hill first time. I felt bad for everyone involved, the crew and passengers. But then 9017 is just another engine to most people, and does not have obscene amounts of money spent keeping a worn out loco on the mainline just because this country idolises it for some reason.

 

I honestly believe the best thing the NRM could do is restore 4472 to her LNER condition, repaint her in Apple Green and place her happily alongside Mallard with a nice big sign saying "The legacy of Sir Nigel Gresley" hanging proudly over the two. Now that would make me want to go and see her.

Alex

[Froxfield2012]

Having been involved in this back and forth, I reminded myself today that both East and West Coast mainlines had a standing start from London up fairly formidable gradients.  In the case of King's Cross, it was through the pretty damp conditions of Gasworks Tunnel and on up to Copenhagen. Although 1 in 105 is not the same as 1 in 60, the trains the pacifics hauled would have been a full load.  I do not recall seeing banking engines but then memory can fail over 60 years!!!  Does anyone know if "bankers" were seen at King's X?  I seem to recall they were used for the heaviest trains out of Euston up 1 in 77?

[96701]

Me and Jen went on a trip behind the Flying Scotsman from York to Carlisle and back via ECML, Low Fell and the Newcastle - Carlisle line; the Settle Carlisle was closed at the time It behaved impeccably all the way there and all the way back. Quite why some people take great delight in a racehorse not performing particularly well in a donkey derby is a little beyond me.

[bike2steam]

Me and Jen went on a trip behind the Flying Scotsman from York to Carlisle and back via ECML, Low Fell and the Newcastle - Carlisle line; the Settle Carlisle was closed at the time It behaved impeccably all the way there and all the way back. Quite why some people take great delight in a racehorse not performing particularly well in a donkey derby is a little beyond me.

You can put it down to many not knowing the pacific 'phenomenon' (wheelie tendency), which if the most experienced of driver times it just wrong, can get caught out. If crews had been allowed to use the sanders in Waterloo station then the reputation of the Bulleid pacifics wouldn't have suffered so much.

[Dunsignalling]

If the Gresley Society hadn't been gazumped by Alan Page this engine wouldn't have been so famous, as it wouldn't have gone to the USA etc, bankrupted owners etc. Also if the LMS had a fast downhill section most likely a LMS Coronation Class would hold the world record for the fasted steam engine.

Presumably the Gresley Society could have bid for another A3?

 

I would hardly call those conditions particularly adverse, the rails were only slightly damp. I'm sure Hovering Highlander is far from the first pacific or large express type loco to pull a train that length, up that bank, in those conditions. Also, I'm not aware of many comments in this thread which are blaming the crew for what happened, I know I certainly am not. Most of the negative comments in this thread are about the loco, and that is what I find funny: the failure of the loco in getting up the bank.

 

And trust me, I would even be having this conversation or paying much attention to a story like this if the loco involved was not put on a pedestal by people, treated like some golden beacon for the nation. Of course it is exactly because of the over hyped nature of 4472 that this story even exists! No one would bother reporting it for any other engine, with the possible exception of Tornado. It's not like I just get some sick enjoyment out of seeing steam engine failing, quite the opposite. I well remember when the Dukdog had to reverse its train back down to a station on the SVR because it could not make it up the hill first time. I felt bad for everyone involved, the crew and passengers. But then 9017 is just another engine to most people, and does not have obscene amounts of money spent keeping a worn out loco on the mainline just because this country idolises it for some reason.

 

I honestly believe the best thing the NRM could do is restore 4472 to her LNER condition, repaint her in Apple Green and place her happily alongside Mallard with a nice big sign saying "The legacy of Sir Nigel Gresley" hanging proudly over the two. Now that would make me want to go and see her.

Alex

She ain't gonna be stuffed and mounted at least until another overhaul becomes due.

 

Apple Green has never done it for me , it's a hideous funfair colour IMHO! (I don't like SR Malachite, either).

 

I think the final A3 condition with A4 boiler, Kylchap and deflectors,  (yes, and Brunswick green) brought out the best in them. They look classy, purposeful and anything but a loco whose original form emerged before the LNER even existed. There can't have been many other steam loco modernisations that worked so well and looked so good.  

 

As to the incident in question, all Pacifics are prone to slipping, simply because under certain conditions, weight gets transferred from the driving wheels onto the rear truck. Had the loco been climbing the bank at the speed it was capable of, rather than the speed permitted, absolutely nothing would have happened.  

 

As for the money thing, none of it was mine and those who donated much of the cost were entitled to spend theirs as they liked.

 

John

Edited September 14, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[bingley hall]

[hartleymartin]

I am told that Flying Scotsman had some trouble with hills when she came to Australia in 1988/89. Mind you, this may have been because some of our main lines have 1 in 50 or even 1 in 40 ruling gradients. The native 4-6-0 and 4-6-2 express locomotives have 5'9" (yes, five-feet-nine-inch) driving wheels because of the heavy gradients on our mainlines.