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#1 P58586

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 17:37

Dapol have just announced they're producing 7mm locos in the 14xx/48xx/58xx series late next year.

There are many variations.

Does anybody know of a source of which locos carried which liveries in the Fifties.

Many thanks,

Peter Prydderch.



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#2 Hal Nail

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 19:02

There is something called "Peto" which documents all sorts of things including liveries, when top feeds were fitted etc but I've only had others refer to it and not seen it myself.

By the way there is already a thread on these locos in the Dapol part of the trade section. Might be worth posting there.

Edited by Hal Nail, 05 September 2017 - 19:05 .

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#3 P58586

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 20:26

There is something called "Peto" which documents all sorts of things including liveries, when top feeds were fitted etc but I've only had others refer to it and not seen it myself.

By the way there is already a thread on these locos in the Dapol part of the trade section. Might be worth posting there.

Thanks for that.

Please have a look at the thread under UK Prototype Questions, and the answers there are pretty definitive.

Anyway, thanks for taking the trouble to respond.

Peter


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#4 Hal Nail

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 21:34

Thanks for that.
Please have a look at the thread under UK Prototype Questions, and the answers there are pretty definitive.
Anyway, thanks for taking the trouble to respond.
Peter


No problem. I see you are after black without top feed which hasn't actually been advertised yet (I'd prefer that as well). Will be interesting to see if the top feed is a removeable part or if they do two different body mouldings.
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#5 pwr

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 09:02

It would be nice to see them do an LNER prototype. Something from all the others and BR has been done so why not?

 

Paul R



#6 P58586

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 10:31

DSC04539.JPG DSC04540.JPG

No problem. I see you are after black without top feed which hasn't actually been advertised yet (I'd prefer that as well). Will be interesting to see if the top feed is a removeable part or if they do two different body mouldings.

Yes, but I've got to the point of preferring the livery to the detail. As I've not the ability to scratchbuild, I've learnt to settle for compromise.

However, the thread under the products & Trade Area dealing with the Dapol announcement (Miss Prism 02/09 13:57) talks of incorrectly tapered topfeed. I wasn't sure whether that suggested a separate moulding.

I'm ordering 7S-006-021US numbered 1416, and seeing where I get with it, as I'm capable of removing the topfeed and associated piping.

It's to live on a small layout based on the station building at Rhostyllen, just South of Wrexham, made for me by LaserCraft Devon, and constructed by my ScaleSeven chum, Mike Osborne.

Very best wishes,

Peter

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#7 Hal Nail

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 11:08

The other option is to order the black 58xx (which doesn't mention a top feed) and add the auto gear!
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#8 P58586

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 11:29

The other option is to order the black 58xx (which doesn't mention a top feed) and add the auto gear!

Thanks for that. 'Never crossed my mind.

Peter



#9 81A Oldoak

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 12:34

It would be nice to see them do an LNER prototype. Something from all the others and BR has been done so why not?

 

Paul R

Which LNER or pre-grouping constituent locomotive do you think would sell a minimum of 1,000 pieces?



#10 Western Star

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 13:36

Which LNER or pre-grouping constituent locomotive do you think would sell a minimum of 1,000 pieces?

Sacre 12AM 2-4-0T.... well, I can dream.  Serious time:-

 

* GCR 0-6-0 tender engines especially the Pom-Pom.

* GER 0-6-0 tender engine (J15?)


Edited by Western Star, 08 September 2017 - 11:29 .

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#11 hartleymartin

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 15:20

Chris,

 

I am rather inclined to think a model based on the J71 or J72 would be a good idea. As far as I am aware, they are basically identical locomotives, with different wheel-sizes. You could probably get both classes from one set of tooling with additional tooling to make the different sized wheel splashers.

 

Yes, I am aware that the centre axle was set 2" different between the two classes, but I don't know if anyone can tell the 1.2mm difference.


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#12 Removed a/c_40-something

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 20:17

Which LNER or pre-grouping constituent locomotive do you think would sell a minimum of 1,000 pieces?


I'd bite your hand off for a J50!

#13 81A Oldoak

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 20:52

Chris,

 

I am rather inclined to think a model based on the J71 or J72 would be a good idea. As far as I am aware, they are basically identical locomotives, with different wheel-sizes. You could probably get both classes from one set of tooling with additional tooling to make the different sized wheel splashers.

 

Yes, I am aware that the centre axle was set 2" different between the two classes, but I don't know if anyone can tell the 1.2mm difference.

I wouldn't bet on it.


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#14 Osgood

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 21:31

So splitting the difference (on a common chassis to use with both models), each one would only be 0.6mm out......


Edited by Osgood, 07 September 2017 - 05:43 .

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#15 hartleymartin

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 09:03

So splitting the difference (on a common chassis to use with both models), each one would only be 0.6mm out......

 

As though it would be obvious on a built-up model. People have happily done this same conversion in 4mm scale for years.


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#16 Johng

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 12:06

There is something called "Peto" which documents all sorts of things including liveries, when top feeds were fitted etc but I've only had others refer to it and not seen it myself.

By the way there is already a thread on these locos in the Dapol part of the trade section. Might be worth posting there.

The 'Peto's' book is very good when it comes to information relating to liveries and Top feed/boiler swaps, etc, You have too remember that locomotives sent for overhaul would be the subject of boiler swaps as part of that process and would be fitted with the next overhauled 'spare' boiler, it is possible for a top feed boiled version to be next outshopped with a non topfeed boiler and therefore the backhead will change as the clacks are either on the backhead or in the topfeed, which ever boiler is fitted, same is true for the Panniers, the backhead detail is NOT the same on both versions, Dapol have this right and no doubt it will be right on the 14xx.

 

Great it coming,   Johng


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#17 jim.snowdon

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 13:07

The 'Peto's' book is very good when it comes to information relating to liveries and Top feed/boiler swaps, etc, You have too remember that locomotives sent for overhaul would be the subject of boiler swaps as part of that process and would be fitted with the next overhauled 'spare' boiler, it is possible for a top feed boiled version to be next outshopped with a non topfeed boiler and therefore the backhead will change as the clacks are either on the backhead or in the topfeed, which ever boiler is fitted, same is true for the Panniers, the backhead detail is NOT the same on both versions, Dapol have this right and no doubt it will be right on the 14xx.
 
Great it coming,   Johng


And that, as a consequence, there is a substantial element of randomness about what any particular loco within a class actually carried at any point in time post-construction. Overhaul intervals weren't consistent either, as they depended on assessments of the mechanical and boiler condition, which in turn depend on how and where the loco has been used.

Jim
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#18 hartleymartin

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 15:30

And that, as a consequence, there is a substantial element of randomness about what any particular loco within a class actually carried at any point in time post-construction. Overhaul intervals weren't consistent either, as they depended on assessments of the mechanical and boiler condition, which in turn depend on how and where the loco has been used.

Jim

 

If you thought that prototype variation was bad in the UK, you should see what railways in Australia were like. I have a photo which shows three identical locomotives allocated to the same shed, all with three different bunkers and all three having different sets of lamps: oil, electric, and even the lamp-irons are no in the same positions!

My particular favourite class, the Z19 (formerly A93) had two different cabs, three different tenders, various types/combinations of oil and electric lights, a few had cowcatchers, etc.

The best advice for historic modelling is to get photographs of a known prototype at a known date, and use those as a guide.


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#19 railwayrod

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 19:18

All this sounds like a minefield. I am sure however, that the ex LMS Black Fives are one of the biggest minefields in railway history in the UK. Apart from the huge number built 842 in all there were different builders, different lots and a great deal more. I feel that an accurate model of a specific Black Five at a specific time would be a nightmare to research and build.

 

I may of course be wrong but over to you!

 

Rod



#20 Johng

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 19:45

All this sounds like a minefield. I am sure however, that the ex LMS Black Fives are one of the biggest minefields in railway history in the UK. Apart from the huge number built 842 in all there were different builders, different lots and a great deal more. I feel that an accurate model of a specific Black Five at a specific time would be a nightmare to research and build.

 

I may of course be wrong but over to you!

 

Rod

 

Rod, I think you have summed it up rather well, the LMS Locomotive Profile's books help, they can be sub divided and it is a lot more complex, but again the same situation arises regarding changes during overhauls, the best advice is to try and get a dated photo and work from that, I do have two of the series on the Black Fives, interesting reading, well researched, a tribute to the authors, even they add 'if you know different',,,, In the words on Lieu Col AD Wintle "I'm never bored when I am present", Intrigued, semi confused no doubt.  Good Luck,  John



#21 Poggy1165

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 10:56

I think the LNER is a difficult one, actually. It was essentially a loose confederation of pre-group railways, each part of which continued to row its own boat for many years. A GW pannier tank (if well chosen as to class) can pop up practically anywhere on the GW. There are few, if any, LNER classes of which the same can be said. The majority were distinctly localised, so in effect you would be aiming for a slice of the global LNER market rather than the whole. It wasn't until Mr Thompson came along that there was any serious attempt at standardisation, and by then the show was pretty much over. Even in BR days the former NER area would have looked very different to the former GER area, for example.

 

I am arguing against my own case here. I am another who would like a Sacre 2-4-0t by the way, but commercially it would only sell to people who thought it was pretty, and to about 5-10 who actually needed one. Please can we have the open-cab version with the Parker chimney? :locomotive:


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#22 jim.snowdon

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 11:01

Rod, I think you have summed it up rather well, the LMS Locomotive Profile's books help, they can be sub divided and it is a lot more complex, but again the same situation arises regarding changes during overhauls, the best advice is to try and get a dated photo and work from that, I do have two of the series on the Black Fives, interesting reading, well researched, a tribute to the authors, even they add 'if you know different',,,, In the words on Lieu Col AD Wintle "I'm never bored when I am present", Intrigued, semi confused no doubt.  Good Luck,  John

Of course, the alternative is to model a locomotive (or anything else) in a plausible condition. It's still prototypical, as that is how the full size railway did things, remembering that the purpose of a locomotive is to be out on the railway hauling trains and earning the company's income.

 

Jim



#23 The Nth Degree

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 11:50

What started as a GWR thread has moved east - and that's when my ears pricked up!

Little Loco Company has several GE, GN and GC tank and tender engines on its radar. The first set of these will go into development early next year.
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#24 Western Star

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 12:34

What started as a GWR thread has moved east - and that's when my ears pricked up!

Little Loco Company has several GE, GN and GC tank and tender engines on its radar. The first set of these will go into development early next year.

Let us not lose sight of the Great Western & Great Central Joint, west of London although east of Fishguard, which saw a wide range of western, central and eastern motive power over the years.


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#25 pwr

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 12:56

Which LNER or pre-grouping constituent locomotive do you think would sell a minimum of 1,000 pieces?


I am inclined to agree that the J72 or J50 is likely to be the most popular although it wouldn't be my choice of loco. If we are sticking to tank engines I would go for a J69 but that may be straying to Little Loco territory.

An 03 diesel would sell well but again this coud be on Little Loco's radar

Paul R







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