August 1969, SR South-Eastern division. What would I see?

[Oldddudders]

All stations to Ashford calling at Paddock Wood, Marden, Staplehurst, Headcorn, Pluckley and Ashford. The 5.14pm from Tonbridge IIRC was one of these. That was the train I caught if I had been involved in after school activities such as sports. It was indeed change at Paddock Wood for the Medway Valley line. The only through I can recall from the late 70s was the 8.20 from Paddock Wood to Tonbridge which came off the Medway Vally and across the mainline and into the Up Platform. Or at least it did until Olddudders masterminded the singling of the junction.

Sitting in a hospital bed awaiting an angiogram. Have been down to theatre once, but sent back as previous patient has chest pains. But this cheered me up no end! If I'm Mastermind the human race has a poor future!

[Nearholmer]

Very good wishes OD.

 

Pity I threw out all my old timetables and notebooks when we moved house, because they would have provided more detail than anyone could ever aak for!

 

I'm still sure they that the HAP trains divided/united at Tonbridge. Perhaps the front portion went fast to Ashford, while the rear did all stations.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Nearholmer

[caradoc]

Re diesel shunters on the SE Section, I saw 3 Class 12s (15212, 15220 and 15235) at Hither Green shed in September 1972, although they were out of service by then.

[Southernman46]

I think you might find they were 9 car consists.  Three sets of 3 car Class 117 sets.

 

Julian Sprott

No - definitely 10 cars .................. with the addition of an extra trailer - I KNOW what I used to see ....................................

 

The extra trailer was always the one based at RG not allocated to a "set" ....................  W59495 ??

Edited September 12, 2017 by Southernman46

[Southernman46]

Tadpoles and loco hauled trains from Reading, at Tonbridge.

 

And, slightly OT, there were a lot of interesting "industrials" in Kent, too, so if your layout can include the start of a line to a cement works, port etc, you get a bonus. Some were even steam ...... 'fireless' steam. I don't think there was any 'real' steam left by 1969, at least not standard gauge, but I'm open to correction.

Might juuusssst still have been something on the EK colliery lines - I remember seeing steam locos there as a very young lad in the lateish 60's 

[bbishop]

Suburban trains - almost invariably EPB units in 4, 6, 8 or 10 car formations.  There were still some woodened bodied 4-SUBs around on the Catford Loop to Sevenoaks; to be replaced by the 53XX series of 4-EPBs.

Medway towns - Hap and EPB units on trains terminating (mostly at Gillingham) the Medway portion of the Victoria service went through to Sheerness with those to the coast mostly Cep but some Hap. There were EPB workings through to Ramsgate via the North Kent at peak times and Haps coupled to Ceps too. Sheerness branch was always a single Hap except the through London trains which were up to four units.

Main lines through Tonbridge not yet, phase 2 of the Kent Coast electrification was in 1961 or 1962 so sparks only to Sevenoaks - Cep and Bep units on most trains with EPB workings out to Sevenoaks and occasionally Tonbridge. Hap units on he Medway Valley line from Paddock Wood to Strood. Sneak feeling sparks to Maidstone West only but could be wrong 6L DEMU units on London - Hastings trains with a 6B added on most. Specified trips for the shorter 6S units as they had fewer seats.

Tonbridge - Redhill - Reading mostly 3R "Tadpole" units but some rostered class 33 + 3 mk1 coaches. Tonbridge - Tun. Wells - Eridge always 3D units though 3H units were permitted and sometimes appeared west of Tun. Wells West.

2H units on Ashford - Hastings and the Lydd branch with 3H and 3D not unknown

Boat trains by 1969 usually 12Cep+MLV as the TLVs had gone by 1968.

Golden Arrow still steam or diesel? and Night Ferry via Faversham hauled by class 71 locos

Inter-regional holiday trains to Margate and Ramsgate could produce classes 24, 25 or 47. Were Brush 4s around yet?

Freight - plenty of it and worked by classes 33 and 71 though with frequent visits from many other types

Parcels and newspaper trains - again often worked by a 33 though sometimes an MLV or 71

Shunting by class 09 with some 08, 10 and 12 though class 12 (D152xx) may have been extinct by 1969.

Plenty of variety

Rick, I've amended your text in red.  I started commuting from St Mary Cray to Catford in September 1959 (aged 7) so just missed the D1/BB combination on the Night Ferry - normally through Catford just before 9am, which gave us 5 mins to get to school.  Then from Petts Wood to Catford from June 1960, so the tail end of Kent Coast steam - BB or Std 5.

 

Bill

 

I'VE LEFT MY CONTRIBUTION FOR HISTORICAL PURPOSES, BUT I'M DESCRIBING AUGUST 1959

 

I really should be more careful reading the title.

 

Bill

Edited September 13, 2017 by bbishop

[bbishop]

That is the former South Eastern Railway suburban network, aka the Dartford group of lines - all lines lead there!

 

EPBs were on every train, although the pair of 4-DD double-deckers was still plying the Bexleyheath Line at this date. The only relief among the EPBs, which didn't travel beyond Gillingham or Maidstone West, were the HAPs, which ran an hourly - or was it half-hourly? - service from Charing Cross via Lewisham and Woolwich Arsenal (the North Kent line) semi-fast all the way to Ramsgate.

 

Sorry, not a DEMU in sight, but plenty of freight services.

Ian,

 

Hope you are ok.

 

Very occasionally  I saw a 4-EPB in the North Kent to Ramsgate consist.

 

Bill

[Oldddudders]

Ian,

 

Hope you are ok.

 

Very occasionally  I saw a 4-EPB in the North Kent to Ramsgate consist.

 

Bill

Thanks Bill, angiogram indicated my arteries are in fine form.

 

I am bound to infer St Dunstans? ISTR a car dealer at Petts Wood called itself Dunstonian for the same alma mater reason.

[Gwiwer]

Bill - thanks.  10 years earlier than OP asked for as you acknowledge and of course I agree.  Had I replied to 1959 instead of 1969 my answer would have closely resembled yours.

[Gwiwer]

No - definitely 10 cars .................. with the addition of an extra trailer - I KNOW what I used to see ....................................

 

The extra trailer was always the one based at RG not allocated to a "set" ....................  W59495 ??

Reading had a few 4-car 117 sets which inclued a 101 trailer.  They were supposed to be kept to specific duties because the lower power:weight ratio affected timekeeping but they turned up pretty much anywhere.  It is possible that one of these was included with two standard 3-car 117s in an excursion to maximise seating capacity.

[bbishop]

Bill - thanks.  10 years earlier than OP asked for as you acknowledge and of course I agree.  Had I replied to 1959 instead of 1969 my answer would have closely resembled yours.

 

Rick,  insomnia, a visit to RMWeb, eyelids not working.

 

The scary thing is that, whilst I have retained an interest in the "Southern Region", I could only give you time and place for the period 1959 - 65.

 

Trivial details - because the Prep forms finished at 3:20pm, we caught a wooded 4-SUB.  Only EPBs in the rush hour.  We would only use the wooden stock, with external door handles, not the steel augmentation trailer.  And, of course, there was a Saturday lunchtime rush hour.

 

Ian,  Yes to both questions.

 

Bill

[andyman7]

Thanks Bill, angiogram indicated my arteries are in fine form.

 

I am bound to infer St Dunstans? ISTR a car dealer at Petts Wood called itself Dunstonian for the same alma mater reason.

And 50 years later yours truly is now travelling into town on a 700 series Thameslink from Catford having dropped the nipper at St Dunstans....

(sorry, bit OT...)

[andyman7]

The VEPs didn't arrive in Kent until 1974. And there was a leaflet for customers - "New Trains For Kent". Cool, eh? Except that close scrutiny of the EMU on the cover showed it to be a CIG, which had had a VEP number added! I think the VEPs displaced HAPs, sent elsewhere.

No doubt Kent commuters were terribly excited about their brand new slam door naked-lightbulb equipped trains, being built alongside Mk3s for other parts of the country...

(sorry, OT again, but I am enjoying this thread)

[73c]

For the cross London freight don't forget the Thursday ( I think ) class 52 Acton to Norwood Junc.

[Nearholmer]

Although we've mentioned several of the trains that they hauled, I don't think we've explicitly mentioned the Class 71. One of them, hauling a train made entirely of miscellaneous ferry vans would be a 'signature' train.

 

Pheeeeep!

[Gwiwer]

For the cross London freight don't forget the Thursday ( I think ) class 52 Acton to Norwood Junc.

 

True but not on the South Eastern Division.  IIRC it came via Acton, Kew, Stewarts Lane low level lines and Tulse Hill.

[Nearholmer]

73c

 

True, until 1976, although some days it was a Peak, and some days there was a brake tender, but Norwood Jct isn't on the SED, and I don't think any of the route was either.

 

Kevin

Snap!

[73c]

This is true guys but thinking of Rule 1 

[Nearholmer]

Standard gauge steam .....

 

In light of what Southernman said, I've checked, and yes indeed, Snowdown and Betteshanger collieries still had active 'live' steam locos at this date.

 

When I have more time, I will check whether there might have been anything else, although I think not.

[nick_bastable]

Steam still in use in the mid 70's at Snowdown

 

complete with OHL for a class 71 

 

 

Nick

[Nearholmer]

Noting something from far back in this thread:

 

"Boat trains by 1969 usually 12Cep+MLV as the TLVs had gone by 1968."

 

I don't think so; pretty sure that the trains has MLV+TLV well into the 1970s.

 

I can't recall the exact details, but I've got a feeling that a Cep/bet/cep/Mlv/Mlv would have exceeded circuit breaker settings, although settings may have been increased at some time.

[Mike Storey]

In 1969, I was all of 12, but spent a large part of my life before, during and after, travelling to Woolwich Arsenal, Greenwich and later Plumstead to see my grandparents in nursing homes there. I don't recall a single unit in green by then, or anything other than a black and white BR corporate sign on any of the stations (bar the odd old green enamel sign affixed to concrete, presumably too hard to remove). I do recall many of these were printed on wood rather than metal, and were replaced over time, hence their mass availability at Collectors' Corner some years later.

 

It was very different on the Eastern Region, where old blue signs lingered well into the 70's, on our holiday trips, invariably to Lowestoft.

 

There was little variety in the EMU's and little else passed by. You will either need to be careful about your chosen location (pick one really or theoretically on one of the main Boat Train routes which also took the primary freight and parcels work), or just go Rule 1 anyway. Otherwise you may not find this a very rewarding model?

[Mike Storey]

Noting something from far back in this thread:

 

"Boat trains by 1969 usually 12Cep+MLV as the TLVs had gone by 1968."

 

I don't think so; pretty sure that the trains has MLV+TLV well into the 1970s.

 

I can't recall the exact details, but I've got a feeling that a Cep/bet/cep/Mlv/Mlv would have exceeded circuit breaker settings, although settings may have been increased at some time.

 

Can't comment on this for 1969, but by late 1975, when I worked for Sealink at Victoria, they were most definitely purely CEP/BEP/CEP/MLV only (with the odd VEP substitute when faced with no choice, which really screwed up our reservations, for which as a mere CO1/2 I was presumed responsible for sorting out when on train reception duties).

[St Enodoc]

Tadpoles and loco hauled trains from Reading, at Tonbridge.

 

And, slightly OT, there were a lot of interesting "industrials" in Kent, too, so if your layout can include the start of a line to a cement works, port etc, you get a bonus. Some were even steam ...... 'fireless' steam. I don't think there was any 'real' steam left by 1969, at least not standard gauge, but I'm open to correction.

ex-SE&CR P class Pioneer II was in a siding at Kemsley Mill in October 1969 but I don't think it was in working order. Bowater's were still using 2' 6" gauge fireless locos at that time (I rode in the cab of Unique).

[St Enodoc]

Worth pointing out that CEP/BEPs could work in multiple with HAPs without restriction. These 'express' units could, and did, also work with EPBs but there had to be a minimum 2:1 ratio of express to suburban stock, presumably because of different gear ratios. 4CEP/2EPB would therefore be a valid combination on your layout if you wanted it.

I seem to recall that there were two types of EPB, one geared for 75 mph and one for 90 mph - only the latter were allowed to run with express units. Perhaps this came later than 1969 though.