August 1969, SR South-Eastern division. What would I see?

[St Enodoc]

And, the more I think about a 2-HAP, the more it seems like something from another age! They looked and felt deeply retro even c1970, when barely ten years old.

We were running them (as 4-CAPs) out of Lovers' Walk in the 1980s.

[Mike Storey]

I also recall that EPB's were eventually banned through the Medway due to the restricted tunnels (preventing evacuation from non-corridor stock) but can't recall when that ban was imposed?

[RFS]

No doubt Kent commuters were terribly excited about their brand new slam door naked-lightbulb equipped trains, being built alongside Mk3s for other parts of the country...

(sorry, OT again, but I am enjoying this thread)

 

And I believe some railwaymen referred to the 4-VEPs as "4-SUBs with corridors"....

[Gwiwer]

I seem to recall that there were two types of EPB, one geared for 75 mph and one for 90 mph - only the latter were allowed to run with express units. Perhaps this came later than 1969 though.

 

Only a handful of BR Standard 4EPB units were regeared for 90mph.  For all the rest 75mph was fine as such speeds were seldom reached in suburbia or even on the "extended" suburban runs to Sevenoaks or Gillingham.  The 90mph units were used on the Brighton main line for a time with at least one appearing as part of the non-stop formation much to the chagrin of those accustomed to a Cig+Big+Cig for their 55 minute ride.  The EPB was supposed to be at one end or the other to permit passengers in the rest of the train to walk through.  On the occasion I travelled the EPB was the middle unit which I only discovered having pulled out of Victoria aboard the rear Cig and discovered I was unable to reach the buffet car due to the presence of four non-gangwayed coaches between me and my intended refreshements.  

[SRman]

I seem to recall that there were two types of EPB, one geared for 75 mph and one for 90 mph - only the latter were allowed to run with express units. Perhaps this came later than 1969 though.

 

As Rick said, there were a few EPBs with express gearing. There were certain provisions and restrictions in place for mixing the differently geared sets in service: without getting bogged down in detail, where there were both types of units combined in a train, two-thirds of the powered axles (or more) had to be geared for 90 mph to allow the units to run above 75 mph.

[Del]

This is all excellent stuff, and very much grist to my mill!

Thank you all for your contributions so far.

[Oldddudders]

In the late '60s, 5357 and 5358 come to mind as EPBs with express gearing. The 06.47 Eastbourne to London Bridge may have been a train one was scheduled for. 

[AberdeenBill]

Have these  been stated above?   Brand-new air-braked wagons from Ashford works.  All types of engineers' stock (definitely not air braked at that time).  

 

Bill

[Nearholmer]

I'm looking forward to seeing Del's layout, which, based on this thread, is clearly going to be a scale representation of the whole of Kent, SE London, and a small slice of Sussex (bits of Surrey???), occupying several of those large warehouses that cluster around motoway junctions.

 

Any idea when it'll be finished Del?

[andyman7]

Only a handful of BR Standard 4EPB units were regeared for 90mph.  For all the rest 75mph was fine as such speeds were seldom reached in suburbia or even on the "extended" suburban runs to Sevenoaks or Gillingham.  The 90mph units were used on the Brighton main line for a time with at least one appearing as part of the non-stop formation much to the chagrin of those accustomed to a Cig+Big+Cig for their 55 minute ride.  The EPB was supposed to be at one end or the other to permit passengers in the rest of the train to walk through.  On the occasion I travelled the EPB was the middle unit which I only discovered having pulled out of Victoria aboard the rear Cig and discovered I was unable to reach the buffet car due to the presence of four non-gangwayed coaches between me and my intended refreshements.  

They were also used on peak Victoria-Medway-Ramsgate/Dover trains by the late 80s attached to 8CEP/VEP.

[andyman7]

I also recall that EPB's were eventually banned through the Medway due to the restricted tunnels (preventing evacuation from non-corridor stock) but can't recall when that ban was imposed?

Not sure about that as they certainly worked out to Gillingham right up to final withdrawal in '94 (I lived in Sittingbourne at the time)

[Gwiwer]

I also recall that EPB's were eventually banned through the Medway due to the restricted tunnels (preventing evacuation from non-corridor stock) but can't recall when that ban was imposed?

 

Not sure about that as they certainly worked out to Gillingham right up to final withdrawal in '94 (I lived in Sittingbourne at the time)

 

Non-gangwayed stock most certainly did work through Higham and Strood Tunnels (those which were originally canal tunnels and are consequently a little tight to gauge) right up until the end.  There was however a restriction affecting compartment-only stock in its later years.  As I recall, and others may correct me here, once the affected units gained the red "compartment-only" stripes at cantrail height they were banned from conveying passengers through those tunnels because there was a higher risk of them being trapped in a single compartment if an emergency occurred.  The same restriction applied to the tunnels between Dover and Folkestone through which EPB stock seldom worked though Haps did daily.  The restriction also applied to all rolling stock without end doors through Shakespeare Tunnel meaning Haps could ultimately not work in service below the cliffs either.

 

I don't believe there has ever been a ban on open-style EPB stock, nor on Haps which also had open seating bays, through Higham and Strood tunnels.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Gwiwer

[Oldddudders]

My recollection is that a disenchanted member of staff, recently reduced in grade due to being found guilty of fiddling expenses while engaged in Sectional Council duties, decided to do his utmost to take revenge. He it was who identified the single-bore tunnels at Shakespeare Cliff as being unsafe for evacuation of compartment stock. That not only barred HAP stock from such turns, but also 365 units in passenger service. Thus do all the present units have gangway connectors at the outer ends. Do Javelins not go this way?

 

The EPB single-compartment coaching stock was reduced in many cases by simply knocking out the partitions, I think. Those units for which this was not done received the dreaded red stripe and tended to be used in the peaks only. This followed the off-peak murder of a young woman in a compartment in the Penge East area in the late '80s, I think. 

 

When surveying was being done prior to the introduction of 465/6 units, tunnels in the Charlton-Woolwich area were noted as having grooves at cantrail level,where the kinematic envelope of the EPBs at speed had gouged the tunnel walls! 

[russ p]

I wonder if lone women became sh#t scared of restaurant cars too? No brunch mufins for them!

Edited September 14, 2017 by russ p

[Gwiwer]

 

 

This followed the off-peak murder of a young woman in a compartment in the Penge East area in the late '80s, I think.

One of two or possibly three very similar and most regrettable incidents at much the same time.  The 4EPB fleet was reshuffled such that the single all-compartment trailer which many units had was exchanged with an open one from another unit and the compartment ones then paired up in class 405/5 units re-numbered in the 5501 series.  As Ian says these were supposedly only to work fixed peak-time diagrams which required the highest capacity but they strayed on a daily basis.  They did however normally remain in pairs and not work with other 4EPB units.

 

The 2EPB units could not be reshuffled and half of one coach thus received the red line.  As did ER units of classes 302, 305, 307 and 308 also blessed with compartment-only vehicles,

 

The restriction on end-door stock through Shakespeare Tunnel has been eased to permit class 395 stock to traverse the route but was not lifted from class 365 which ended up on the Great Northern anyway.

[Gwiwer]

I wonder if lone women became sh#t scared of restaurant cars too? No brunch mufins for them!

The red line which denoted catering vehicles was not commonly seen on Kent suburban services, nor on the other routes afflicted by compartment-only stock.  Here that line served as a warning and while it did have two meanings (warning / catering) the two did not overlap and confusion was unlikely.  

[russ p]

The red line which denoted catering vehicles was not commonly seen on Kent suburban services, nor on the other routes afflicted by compartment-only stock.  Here that line served as a warning and while it did have two meanings (warning / catering) the two did not overlap and confusion was unlikely.

 

Sorry I was been ironic, the two did cross over as there were still buffet cars on the southern at that time

I thought at the time a symbol on the door to the compartment may have been more appropriate or a red waist babd

[Oldddudders]

Sorry I was been ironic, the two did cross over as there were still buffet cars on the southern at that time

I thought at the time a symbol on the door to the compartment may have been more appropriate or a red waist babd

 

On Southern maybe, Russ, but not the South Eastern. The BEPs had been gone some time, and the 6-Bs on the Hastings diesels had gone years before HASMOD electrified the route. Trolleys were the drinking man's only hope on the South Eastern by then. 

[russ p]

Time goes so quickly, had all the buffets gone by then.

Is there any catering at all on the southern now other than a trolley on the withered arm?

[Gwiwer]

Time goes so quickly, had all the buffets gone by then.

Is there any catering at all on the southern now other than a trolley on the withered arm?

 

All SED buffet cars had gone but a few trolleys still served Kent coast expresses.

Trolleys still on most Brighton Line fast trains including Eastbourne portions of coastal splitters, plus on GatEx.  All now gone.

Trolleys then and still today on most Bournemouth and Weymouth fast trains and Exeter services east of Axminster where they are based.  Some still on the Portsmouth Direct too IIRC.

The occasional diversion means it is still possible (either planned or unplanned) to enjoy a glass of wine and a snack while traversing the District Line between Wimbledon and East Putney.  There hasn't been any on-train catering on the tube for very many years!

Edited September 14, 2017 by Gwiwer

[Nearholmer]

"Is there any catering at all on the southern now

other than a trolley on the withered arm?"

 

I invite everyone to imagine Betjeman intoning that, either as part of a poem, or part of one of those poetic voiceovers.

 

See what I mean?

[RFS]

In the late '60s, 5357 and 5358 come to mind as EPBs with express gearing. The 06.47 Eastbourne to London Bridge may have been a train one was scheduled for. 

 

Delving into my 1984 ABC it says the following BR Standard 4-EPBs had express gear ratio:

 

5303-05/07-15/17-19 and 5338. So 16 in total at that time.

[Del]

 

Any idea when it'll be finished Del?

 

Hmmm?

Oh, it's all done. Just need to get a bit of stock, that's all...

 

On a (semi-)serious note, this is all good, as it's intended to be not too far out of London, so there could be all sorts of services passing through to far-flung destinations (if I can get enough room for the fiddleyards).

[Del]

 

 

The EPB single-compartment coaching stock was reduced in many cases by simply knocking out the partitions, I think. Those units for which this was not done received the dreaded red stripe and tended to be used in the peaks only. This followed the off-peak murder of a young woman in a compartment in the Penge East area in the late '80s, I think. 

 

 

The unit involved in this terrible incident was still stored at Victoria depot, when I joined the railway in 1988. It still had the fingerprint powder in various areas, and I always felt a little uncomfortable when I had to walk past it.

[St Enodoc]

All SED buffet cars had gone but a few trolleys still served Kent coast expresses.

Trolleys still on most Brighton Line fast trains including Eastbourne portions of coastal splitters, plus on GatEx.  All now gone.

Trolleys then and still today on most Bournemouth and Weymouth fast trains and Exeter services east of Axminster where they are based.  Some still on the Portsmouth Direct too IIRC.

The occasional diversion means it is still possible (either planned or unplanned) to enjoy a glass of wine and a snack while traversing the District Line between Wimbledon and East Putney.  There hasn't been any on-train catering on the tube for very many years!

Ah, the good old days when the Brighton "fasts" (always thought BR could be in trouble under the Trade Descriptions Act there) served a nice cheese and tomato toastie (which, if consumed by a certain ASM from Brighton, was washed down with a large gin and tonic).