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August 1969, SR South-Eastern division. What would I see?





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#76 Oldddudders

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 05:41

Ah, the good old days when the Brighton "fasts" (always thought BR could be in trouble under the Trade Descriptions Act there) served a nice cheese and tomato toastie (which, if consumed by a certain ASM from Brighton, was washed down with a large gin and tonic).


"... and the forgotten sound of a Brighton Fast will cry eerily out of time, like one of Pharaohs trumpets." Cuthbert Hamilton Ellis, in signing off his history of the Brighton. Mind you, he was referring to the possibility of sounding Gladstone's whistle! And let's not forget that for a period in WW2, they were the fastest timed trains in Britain!
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#77 Southernman46

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 07:32

The unit involved in this terrible incident was still stored at Victoria depot, when I joined the railway in 1988. It still had the fingerprint powder in various areas, and I always felt a little uncomfortable when I had to walk past it.

Indeed she was BRUTALLY murdered and they still haven't caught the f*cker either ................ hopefully it'll end up as one of those 20+ year DNA identity cases and he'll be brought to justice at some point


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#78 Fat Controller

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 07:42

One of two or possibly three very similar and most regrettable incidents at much the same time.  The 4EPB fleet was reshuffled such that the single all-compartment trailer which many units had was exchanged with an open one from another unit and the compartment ones then paired up in class 405/5 units re-numbered in the 5501 series.  As Ian says these were supposedly only to work fixed peak-time diagrams which required the highest capacity but they strayed on a daily basis.  They did however normally remain in pairs and not work with other 4EPB units.

 

The 2EPB units could not be reshuffled and half of one coach thus received the red line.  As did ER units of classes 302, 305, 307 and 308 also blessed with compartment-only vehicles,

 

The restriction on end-door stock through Shakespeare Tunnel has been eased to permit class 395 stock to traverse the route but was not lifted from class 365 which ended up on the Great Northern anyway.

The restriction has been eased for the 395s; however, if a train is formed of two sets, the Train Manager makes an announcement at Ashford to advise passengers that only the first unit will carry passengers beyond Folkestone Central. The announcement also advises that extra time is allowed at that station for passengers to move forward. This is to ensure that the passengers are in the same part of the train as the Train Manager for evacuation purposes.


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#79 The Lurker

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 08:02

One of two or possibly three very similar and most regrettable incidents at much the same time.  The 4EPB fleet was reshuffled such that the single all-compartment trailer which many units had was exchanged with an open one from another unit and the compartment ones then paired up in class 405/5 units re-numbered in the 5501 series.  As Ian says these were supposedly only to work fixed peak-time diagrams which required the highest capacity but they strayed on a daily basis.  They did however normally remain in pairs and not work with other 4EPB units.

 

The 2EPB units could not be reshuffled and half of one coach thus received the red line.  As did ER units of classes 302, 305, 307 and 308 also blessed with compartment-only vehicles,

 

The restriction on end-door stock through Shakespeare Tunnel has been eased to permit class 395 stock to traverse the route but was not lifted from class 365 which ended up on the Great Northern anyway.

Occasionally the all compartment stock was allocated to a train that came from Maidstone West and terminated at Tonbridge, the aforementioned 8.20 from Paddock Wood, It was heavily used by schoolkids, being the last train you could get without being late to school. I don't know if similar stock was used for a train that came from the Sevenoaks direction (possibly from Otford) that was in the same way a schools special. Sorry I've taken this way OT



#80 bbishop

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 08:17

"... and the forgotten sound of a Brighton Fast will cry eerily out of time, like one of Pharaohs trumpets."

 

Round about 1970, there was an ecs movement of two 2-Pan units through Petts Wood at about 8:10am.  They came off the loop from Bickley onto the down fast.  It was a Saturday only movement, because the 8:12am Orpington - Victoria used the up slow on weekdays and the up fast on Saturdays.  They had 660 volt motors and were accelerating on 750 volts.  They howled.

 

Bill


Edited by bbishop, 15 September 2017 - 09:00 .

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#81 Gwiwer

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 08:55

"... and the forgotten sound of a Brighton Fast will cry eerily out of time, like one of Pharaohs trumpets."


Hark. The mournful whistle of a 6Pul unit approaching East Croydon showing the single-digit 4 headcode and crying its warning to the assembled multitudes on platform 1. "This is a Brighton fast. Not stopping here." Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeppppppppppp. Ba-dum. Whiiiiinnnneeee. Ba-dum ba-dum. Ba-dum ba-dum. Ba-dum ba-dum. Ba-dum ba-dum. Ba-dum ba-dum. Whiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnneeeee. Ba-dum. Cloud of dust.
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#82 bbishop

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 09:00

Hark. The mournful whistle of a 6Pul unit approaching East Croydon showing the single-digit 4 headcode and crying its warning to the assembled multitudes on platform 1. "This is a Brighton fast. Not stopping here." Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeppppppppppp. Ba-dum. Whiiiiinnnneeee. Ba-dum ba-dum. Ba-dum ba-dum. Ba-dum ba-dum. Ba-dum ba-dum. Ba-dum ba-dum. Whiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnneeeee. Ba-dum. Cloud of dust.

 

Evocative.

 

B


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#83 Joseph_Pestell

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 11:12

I moved to the area (Coney Hall, West Wickham) just after the timeframe posed by the OP (October 1969). So many of these answers have revived memories for me. We even had 2-car EPBs on two local routes, Addiscombe and Bromley North.

 

Tricky to find a station in the area that offers both operational interest and the wide variety of stock mentioned within the sort of space that most of us have available for layout building. I never saw it happen but I suppose it is possible that Hastings trains would be diverted via Bat and Ball if the mainline between Sevenoaks and Chislehurst was blocked. Some of the Darenth valley line stations are both attractive and compact.

 

Edit: More urban but also very compact is Bromley South (even so 16' long in 4mm scale between the roadbridges that would make the scenic breaks). I am not quite sure when the goods yard closed but I think it was before 1969. Anyway, looking it up on the web, the Kentrail site has a useful photo of a 33 hauling a 6S through the station on its way from overhaul at Eastleigh.


Edited by Joseph_Pestell, 15 September 2017 - 12:01 .


#84 Nearholmer

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 13:21

I recall several times being on Hastings trains that were diverted via Redhill, but not Bat & Ball, and I've got an inkling that one down train was even scheduled that way, which isn't to say that B&B wasn't used.

#85 Oldddudders

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 14:06

I recall several times being on Hastings trains that were diverted via Redhill, but not Bat & Ball, and I've got an inkling that one down train was even scheduled that way, which isn't to say that B&B wasn't used.

 

Planned diversions via Redhill would be crewed suitably. If there was a problem anywhere via Polhill, even something like a points failure at Orpington, then diversion via the Bat would just happen. Traincrew route knowledge was probably up to that, while via Redhill would be much more of an issue without advanced planning. 


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#86 Gwiwer

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 15:17

The Bat and Ball route had lower capacity than the main line due to its longer signal sections and lower speed limits (not intended to handle much more than a half-hourly service, certainly not the full main line timetable) so if the main were blocked it was normal to route diesel trains via Redhill and leave the electrified route for electric trains.

There was an overnight "passenger and news" working which was booked via Redhill for some years in order to serve the mail hub and retain route knowledge but I'm not sure about anything else.

#87 Nearholmer

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 15:47

I'm probably remembering one of the multiple periods when one of the long tunnels had some prolonged works going on that restricted line capacity.

#88 SED Freightman

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 15:47

The Bat and Ball route had lower capacity than the main line due to its longer signal sections and lower speed limits (not intended to handle much more than a half-hourly service, certainly not the full main line timetable) so if the main were blocked it was normal to route diesel trains via Redhill and leave the electrified route for electric trains.
There was an overnight "passenger and news" working which was booked via Redhill for some years in order to serve the mail hub and retain route knowledge but I'm not sure about anything else.


The Bat & Ball line could and did handle considerabley more than a half hourly service when necessary, on summer Saturdays when Orpington - Sevenoaks was closed for engineering work there would be a constant procession of diverted electric services, departmental movements, boat trains and inter-regional excursions, although the Hastings DEMU's ran via Redhill. During unplanned blockages on the main line everything ran via Bat & Ball except for the Sevenoaks- Charing Cross / Cannon Street slow services which would only run to / from Orpington.
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#89 andyman7

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 20:26

The EPB single-compartment coaching stock was reduced in many cases by simply knocking out the partitions, I think. Those units for which this was not done received the dreaded red stripe and tended to be used in the peaks only. This followed the off-peak murder of a young woman in a compartment in the Penge East area in the late '80s, I think. 

The actual incident that led to the 'red compartment' line was the horrific murder of Debbie Lindsay, a young women stabbed to death somewhere between Victoria and Brixton in a single compartment in 1988. At that time the only remaining such stock consisted of half a coach in the BR design 2EPBs and one of the two intermediate vehicles in the SR design 4EPBs. As a result, the 4EPBs were reformed so that half the fleet got both compartment coaches included in their consist and the remainder were formed exclusively of the open coaches. The former were then confined to peak workings (where of course they were likely to be full). I was a young clerk on BR at the time in the London area so this is all extremely vivid to me.


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#90 Oldddudders

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 20:33

The actual incident that led to the 'red compartment' line was the horrific murder of Debbie Lindsay, a young women stabbed to death somewhere between Victoria and Brixton in a single compartment in 1988. At that time the only remaining such stock consisted of half a coach in the BR design 2EPBs and one of the two intermediate vehicles in the SR design 4EPBs. As a result, the 4EPBs were reformed so that half the fleet got both compartment coaches included in their consist and the remainder were formed exclusively of the open coaches. The former were then confined to peak workings (where of course they were likely to be full). I was a young clerk on BR at the time in the London area so this is all extremely vivid to me.

 

Thanks for the extra detail. I had forgotten her surname. 









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