Manning Wardle class H -4mm scratchbuild

[Ruston]

I am going to attempt to build a Manning Wardle class H in 4mm scale. I have seen a few conversions of Hornby L&Y pugs, which look good but building something on the pug chassis puts me off. I have one of these that was brand new and it is very light and doesn't run at all well, not to mention that it has a longer wheelbase than a class H, so I have to assume that the pug conversions are New Class I or P, or specials.

 

I am doing a late version of the H - the ones with the solid deep frames. This is not just because it is easier to build but because there is plenty of space between the frames to hide extra weight, which is something that can't be done with the earlier versions with the swan-necked frame ends and cut outs within the wheelbase.

 

IIt will be powered by a Mashima 10/20 motor and driven through a High Level gearbox.

 

The first stage is underway; that is making the patterns for profile milling the nickel silver and brass sheet.

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Ruston

[Arthur]

 

Interesting and Impressive!

 

Will you be doing the milling yourself Dave?

 

.

[Ruston]

Interesting and Impressive!

 

Will you be doing the milling yourself Dave?

 

.

Probably not, Arthur. The milling will be done on a friend's machine and although he would probably let me drive it if I want to, it'll no doubt be quicker to let him get on with it than me faff about learning to use it.

[Barclay]

Looking forward to reading this. I built the class F some years ago as my first scratchbuild using the MRJ series as a guide. There's loads of useful info and templates in there - they are similar loco's I believe?

[toplink@()1989))((]

Interesting project Ruston, am I correct in thinking that the method of milling the parts involves a pantograph doodad? If so could it be configured to produce parts to bigger scales using the same patterns?  I would be interested in buying a set of parts if you were inclined to make an extra set in 7mm scale.

 

 

Cheer's, Pete.

[Ruston]

Interesting project Ruston, am I correct in thinking that the method of milling the parts involves a pantograph doodad? If so could it be configured to produce parts to bigger scales using the same patterns?  I would be interested in buying a set of parts if you were inclined to make an extra set in 7mm scale.

 

 

Cheer's, Pete.

I'm not sure. It depends on how the pantograph can be upsized.

 

I have made up an outline that can be printed out to 4mm scale (though it won't come out to scale in the screen shot) so I can put it up against the outlines of High Level gearboxes in order to work out what will fit.

[Ruston]

The pattern making is done, bar the brake hangers, buffer planks and wheel balance weights.

Now, apparently, this isn't really the way to do it. Making everything in one go is a bit risky. I'm told that it's better to mill some parts and check the fit/assemble the metal parts before making the patterns for others. When making the patterns you have to consider the thicknesses of materials for things such as tank wrappers and work the fit and interference with other parts. So if one thing is wrong it has a knock-on effect and the rest won't fit but, hey, let's live dangerouly and cut the whole lot in one go!

 

Castings, wheels, gearbox and motor have been purchased along with various brass and nickel silver strip and some brass tube.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Ruston

[wagonbasher]

S

 

The pattern making is done, bar the brake hangers, buffer planks and wheel balance weights.

MWparts-001.jpg

Now, apparently, this isn't really the way to do it. Making everything in one go is a bit risky. I'm told that it's better to mill some parts and check the fit/assemble the metal parts before making the patterns for others. When making the patterns you have to consider the thicknesses of materials for things such as tank wrappers and work the fit and interference with other parts. So if one thing is wrong it has a knock-on effect and the rest won't fit but, hey, let's live dangerouly and cut the whole lot in one go!

 

Castings, wheels, gearbox and motor have been purchased along with various brass and nickel silver strip and some brass tube.

MWparts-003.jpg

So....   Are the patterns plasticard?

 

What sort of thickness are they?

 

What sort of scale - how much bigger are they than the final piece?

 

Andy

[Ruston]

S

 

So....   Are the patterns plasticard?

 

What sort of thickness are they?

 

What sort of scale - how much bigger are they than the final piece?

 

Andy

They are indeed Plasticard and are about 1.5mm thick. They are 6x final size.

[wagonbasher]

They are indeed Plasticard and are about 1.5mm thick. They are 6x final size.

 

If you found that you need to remove another 1/2 mm on any given section of the model, are you able to remove some material (3mm) from the pattern and re-cut 'trim' that same piece of model or do you have to remake the part?

 

Just curious...

 

Andy

[5050]

I don't see a cab front and don't you need two each of the firebox, smokebox and tank profiles?  Also the frames aren't there - but I'm sure you've made profiles for those.  All in all a very interesting project, looking forward to seeing how it progresses.

 

I'll look out those MRJ's for you BTW now I've got over S4UM.

 

EDIT - frames shown in your first photo - DOH!

Edited September 27, 2017 by 5050

[Ruston]

If you found that you need to remove another 1/2 mm on any given section of the model, are you able to remove some material (3mm) from the pattern and re-cut 'trim' that same piece of model or do you have to remake the part?

 

Just curious...

 

Andy

In theory but in practice the patterns are fixed with MEK to a sheet of the same thickness of plasticard so they can be arranged to get the most out of a sheet of brass but more importantly to allow them to be clamped to the table where the stylus follows around their profile. So trimming the patterns won't be easy once they are fixed in place. I have made patterns for new frames for a 7mm 48DS Ruston and a 7mm 100HP Sentinel but this is far more complex, so it could all end in tears.

 

All the parts are now done and in addition I have done an alterntive deep buffer beam and block buffers.

 

I will be taking the patterns for milling on Friday. If they can be done there and then, without having to leave them, I'll take some photo of the machine and the process.

[Ruston]

Milling the parts.

 

The patterns, now glued to the backing, are clamped onto the table on the machine, where a stylus that runs in varying sizes of brass "bobbin" follows the pattern.

 

Lower down is the business end, where the plate is clamped to the table with a suitable lining material (in this case, plywood) to prevent the cutter from cutting into the table.

 

Where small holes for locating pins etc. are marked up on the pattern a cutter of the appropriate size is used to drill down into the plate. All holes and slots must be done before cutting the shape of the part.  For larger holes, such as the axle holes, I had assumed that this would be the same but with a larger cutter, again used as a drill but this is not so. Plasticard circles had to be cut and glued on to the frame pattern so the cutter would cut the profile and not simply drill into it. To centre the new rings a brass bobbin with a 1mm hole is put over the pattern and a 1mm drill bit put through it and into the 1mm hole in the pattern. The new ring, which is a snug fit around the bobbin is placed over it and fixed in place using MEK. The drill bit and bobbin are withdrawn, leaving the ring perfectly centred on the original hole.

 

 

I did have a go at milling but only to make the plasticard rings for the axle holes and didn't cut any brass. It is more difficult than it looks as you're watching the stylus and keeping it hard against the pattern at the same time as holding the adjuster for the cutter depth and also deepening the cut on the adjuster when to cut the piece requires more than one pass.

 

Although I had wanted the frame parts to be made in nickel silver they were done in brass as NS is a much harder material to cut than the brass, so only the rods have been made from NS. The brass is is a grade made for engraving and has a small percentage of lead added, which makes it freer-cutting and not quite as hard as the sort of brass you will find in etched kits

 

Straight off the cutter the parts have to be rubbed lightly on an oilstone to remove burrs, hence the marks. The rods may have to be made again as I didn't consider the overscale size of the crankpin nuts, which will exceed the ends of the rods and look a bit odd. It will look better if the rods are lengthened enough to be covered by the nuts. Obviously not everything can be scaled down exactly and some compromises have to be made to get things to work and to look right.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Ruston

[ian@stenochs]

Milling the parts.

 

The patterns, now glued to the backing, are clamped onto the table on the machine, where a stylus that runs in varying sizes of brass "bobbin" follows the pattern.

Milliing1.jpg

 

Lower down is the business end, where the plate is clamped to the table with a suitable lining material (in this case, plywood) to prevent the cutter from cutting into the table.

Milling2.jpg

 

 

 

Where small holes for locating pins etc. are marked up on the pattern a cutter of the appropriate size is used to drill down into the plate. All holes and slots must be done before cutting the shape of the part.  For larger holes, such as the axle holes, I had assumed that this would be the same but with a larger cutter, again used as a drill but this is not so. Plasticard circles had to be cut and glued on to the frame pattern so the cutter would cut the profile and not simply drill into it. To centre the new rings a brass bobbin with a 1mm hole is put over the pattern and a 1mm drill bit put through it and into the 1mm hole in the pattern. The new ring, which is a snug fit around the bobbin is placed over it and fixed in place using MEK. The drill bit and bobbin are withdrawn, leaving the ring perfectly centred on the original hole.

 

Milling3.jpg

 

I did have a go at milling but only to make the plasticard rings for the axle holes and didn't cut any brass. It is more difficult than it looks as you're watching the stylus and keeping it hard against the pattern at the same time as holding the adjuster for the cutter depth and also deepening the cut on the adjuster when to cut the piece requires more than one pass.

 

Although I had wanted the frame parts to be made in nickel silver they were done in brass as NS is a much harder material to cut than the brass, so only the rods have been made from NS. The brass is is a grade made for engraving and has a small percentage of lead added, which makes it freer-cutting and not quite as hard as the sort of brass you will find in etched kits

 

MWparts-005.jpg

Straight off the cutter the parts have to be rubbed lightly on an oilstone to remove burrs, hence the marks. The rods may have to be made again as I didn't consider the overscale size of the crankpin nuts, which will exceed the ends of the rods and look a bit odd. It will look better if the rods are lengthened enough to be covered by the nuts. Obviously not everything can be scaled down exactly and some compromises have to be made to get things to work and to look right.

 

Hi Ruston,

 

An excellent description of the profile milling process. However Nickel Silver is very much a material which can be used. I use it almost exclusively for my 7mm locos. The advantages NS have far outweigh the slightly longer machining time required over free cutting brass.

 

It is not very clear from your photo what type of cutter you are using, is it a D bit? They work great on engraving brass but are not so hot on NS. For cutting NS I use three flute throw away milling cutters, almost always 3/32", for 2-1 patterns. Cutting speed needs to be kept down and a smear of cutting fluid on thicker metal helps. With a new cutter I can cut out a set of loco frames in 28thou metal in one pass leaving very little cleaning up to do.

 

This is my latest, an Andrew Barclay 0-6-0t, DICo no 17.

 

Ian.

 

 

[Ruston]

Hi Ruston,

 

An excellent description of the profile milling process. However Nickel Silver is very much a material which can be used. I use it almost exclusively for my 7mm locos. The advantages NS have far outweigh the slightly longer machining time required over free cutting brass.

 

It is not very clear from your photo what type of cutter you are using, is it a D bit? They work great on engraving brass but are not so hot on NS. For cutting NS I use three flute throw away milling cutters, almost always 3/32", for 2-1 patterns. Cutting speed needs to be kept down and a smear of cutting fluid on thicker metal helps. With a new cutter I can cut out a set of loco frames in 28thou metal in one pass leaving very little cleaning up to do.

 

This is my latest, an Andrew Barclay 0-6-0t, DICo no 17.

 

Ian.

 

 

IMG_1762.JPG

Hi Ian,

 

I don't know about the cutters but my friend, John, who's machine it is, said he preferred to cut brass and as I'm not that bothered so long as the thickness is the same I went with his choice.

 

Because the smallest cutter used is 1mm (there are smaller ones but they "break just for fun", as I was told) the cutting was done with this size. This means that the slots in the frame end up with rounded ends and with curved inside corners on the frame spacers. To get them to fit requires some filing but this means they may not locate fore and aft perfectly. So to hold the frames rigid whilst other parts are put together II have made up some machined spacers.

A pair of old Romford axles for outside-framed locos go through the axle holes in the frames and through the central spacer. Two nuts on each axle have been made and tapped to 10BA to hold the frames in place and straight whilst the upper spacers are soldered in. There's probably an easier way of doing it than making such a device but I've never done this before so I'm making it up as I go along.

 

I am going to wait until I have the running plate before I solder them so that theframe spacers, running plate, cab floor and smokebox base can all be screwed together first to be sure that the holes align.

[ian@stenochs]

Hi Ian,

 

I don't know about the cutters but my friend, John, who's machine it is, said he preferred to cut brass and as I'm not that bothered so long as the thickness is the same I went with his choice.

 

Because the smallest cutter used is 1mm (there are smaller ones but they "break just for fun", as I was told) the cutting was done with this size. This means that the slots in the frame end up with rounded ends and with curved inside corners on the frame spacers. To get them to fit requires some filing but this means they may not locate fore and aft perfectly. So to hold the frames rigid whilst other parts are put together II have made up some machined spacers.]

 

Hi Ruston,

 

I appreciate that you are working in 4mm and 1 mm cutters are quite fragile especially when the copy stylus is moved by hand, it is easy to just move a wee bit too fast and 'Ping another cutter down the pan. I have my own machine so am not constrained.

 

The internal curves are not too difficult to remove with a file and it is still quicker and easier than fretting out with a piercing saw.

 

Ian.

[Ruston]

I now have all the parts except for the tank, cylinder and smokebox wrappers. Some of the parts, such as the glands for the cylinders, are tiny and had to be cut several times due to them flying off never to be seen again.

 

The frames are now soldered up.

 

And the running plate, smokebox base and cab floor are trial-fitted.

The cab floor will be screwed to the running plate and cab floor has also been tapped 10BA to take a screw that will hold the running plate/cab assembly to the frames. The tank will be fixed to the cab whilst the boiler will be fixed to the smokebox, which will in turn be held to the running plate by a pair of 14BA screws. One 10BA screw will hold the running plate/smokebox/boiler assembly to the frames.

[Ruston]

The High Level 'Hi-Flier' gearbox built up and trial-fitted in the frames and a small flywheel has been made. I doubt that this will have any effect on the running but it will add a little weight in an otherwise redundant space.

The bottom of the boiler has been cut out of a piece of brass tube and cut to fit around the gearbox. The smokebox front and rear plates have been soldered to the base, which is spaced out with a piece of brass bar to help things stay square whilst soldering and to add weight in a space that will be inaccessible to add any once the wrapper is fitted.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Ruston

[Ruston]

I now have a running chassis, albeit a tethered one.

The smokebox base has had the holes tapped so it can now be screwed to the running plate and the cab floor is also screwed to the running plate. Once the screws have been trimmed to length I will take it apart and apply a layer of grease to the running plate so it can be screwed back on and the cab front, back, and sides can be soldered onto it. The cylinders have been made up but still require their wrappers and cosmetic end plates.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Ruston

[Sir Hadyn]

Just realised that's Farmer John who did your milling. I owe him a call. Top chap and very talented.

[rope runner]

Where are you sourcing your cross heads/pistons for this from Dave? I know Comet do some, but they're too large for most industrial locos. 

 

 

Paul A. 

[Ruston]

Where are you sourcing your cross heads/pistons for this from Dave? I know Comet do some, but they're too large for most industrial locos. 

 

 

Paul A. 

Hi Paul. I will be making them myself. I spoke to Chris Gibbons, of High Level, about this and he said that he could supply the lost wax sprues from one of his kits (probably the little Hudswell Clarke or the Black Hawthorn) but these Manning Wardles have a very distinctive pattern of crosshead, so I'm going to attempt to make them myself. If that fails I'll be buying some from High Level.

 

My idea at the moment is to make them from square brass bar, turned, milled and slotted with a piercing saw but they may end up being fabricated from strips of brass.

 

Today I have assembled the cab.

The biggest worry here was wondering if I'd made the cabsides the right size for the coal bunkers to be bent inwards but it appears to be OK. If I was going to be really clever I'd have put cutouts in the cab front so the bunkers would go through it but once they model is finished and they're full of coal you won't be able to see that they don't actually go through. The next thing to do on this is to make up the rest of the bunkers, both inside and outside of the cab.

 

So far everything has gone together with minmal fettling and now I have the cab that can be screwed to the running plate, and the smokebox and boiler that can also be screwed to it, I can see if they fit together and also see if my dimension for the tank length is correct. If it isn't all is not lost as the wrapper has yet to be cut and the pattern can be altered before cutting.

[Corbs]

It's taking shape nicely.

[rope runner]

 these Manning Wardles have a very distinctive pattern of crosshead, so I'm going to attempt to make them myself.

 

Those included with the MRJ Manning Wardle class F brass castings are the correct pattern (still available from Branchlines). They have the added bonus of including the slide bars too.  There are also those from the Chivers class F MW kit, which may be available as spares - the sprues also include cylinder end cover and tank filler. 

 

MRJ on the right, Chivers on the left

 

 

Paul A. 

[Ruston]

More progress.

 

The cylinders have been given their wrappers and casting ribs added. These were made by slotting the backplate with a piercing saw and soldering in triangles of 5 Thou. brass sheet. The motion bracket has been thinned and fixed in place and the rear buffer plank has had the holes opened out and has been soldered to the frames. Additionally, the motor's flywheel has been tapped and countersunk.

 

The cylinders have brass tubes with a 0.7mm ID running through them to take the piston rods.

 

The boiler backhead has been made from plasticard, strips and rods whilst the cylinder outer end cover is machined from brass bar.

 

On the bodywork side, the tank formers are ready to take the wrapper and a valance, made from 1mm L angle, has been added below the running plate.