Brunig Bahn/BVZ middle entrance coach guide - the 1:22.5 models take shape...

[Satan's Goldfish]

Evening all.

 

I have an interest in the BVZ and Brunig Bahn middle entrance coaches (and their use with other operators after the Brunig Bahn sold theirs on), and where I'm going to start to get to grips with CAD I'm tempted to try and recreate them with an eventual aim scratch building G gauge models.

 

I've done the standard internet trawl for pictures and information, there's a useful German language wiki page that i can semi decipher: http://www.wikiwand.com/de/Mitteleinstiegswagen_Schmalspur_(Schweiz)but my German isn't good enough to search more in-depth on the subject. Which is throwing up issues. For example I have a Bemo LSE example, the length of which doesn't quite scale up to (What I think) is the length quoted in the wiki article. And I haven't found any scale drawings of them yet. The BVZ originals just seem even more bizarre with their varying length but based around the same asymmetrical theme as the Brunig's, logic would tell me that the 2 systems all 1st coaches should be the same length but the numbers don't match in the article. The composites just leave me scratching my head (Is an ex Brunig 1st/2nd the same length and 'half' division dimensions as an ex Brunig all 2nd?! (See LSE examples bottom of this link: http://www.roundhouse.ch/Spur_HOm/Bemo_HOm_LSE.htm ))

 

Can anyone point me in the direction of further info (And ideally diagrams) of these coaches, or know if a book has been written covering them at all? The FO sportwagen examples are particularly impressive to look at!

 

Many thanks.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Satan's Goldfish

[DIW]

Hello,

 

I can answer some questions regarding the SBB Brünig carriages.

 

The book you need to try to find is 'Die schmalspurige Brünigbahn (SBB)' by Claude Jeanmarie, ISBN 3 85649 039 6. This contains all sorts of photos and drawings of the Brünig with its stock, infrastructure, everything. There is a load of German text at the start of the book, but the part you need is the section of drawings of locos and rolling stock.

 

To answer the immediate question regarding the centre door carriages, the all first, all second and composite are different to each other. The all first has three windows one side of the door and four windows the other; the composite has four and four (but larger spacing in the first class end), and the all second has four and five windows.All three types are the same length, 16470mm over couplings.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Dave

[Satan's Goldfish]

Thanks Dave, I'll upset Mrs SG by adding it to the Christmas list

[Gordonwis]

As the Brünig was SBB, the coaches are included in the books occasionally published by the SBB, and obtainable occasionally on the 2nd hand market.

 

These books have scale drawings of all SBB coaching stock.

 

I have the 1997 edition 'SBB Reisezug- und gepäckwagen / Voitures et fourgons CFF, published by the General Secretariat of the SBB, Bern 1997 

 

The centre entrance coaches have main dimensions as follows:

 

length over couplings: 16470

body length: 15700

wheelbase: 11800

bogie wheelbase: 1800

height from rail to top of roof: 3402

width of centre entrance door: 1800

bogie centre to end of body: 1950

window depth: 975

Edited October 3, 2017 by Gordonwis

[brigo]

Drawings for BVZ and Brunig coaches

 

Brunig CE Coaches.pdf

 

BVZ CE Coaches.pdf

 

Brian

[Satan's Goldfish]

A big thank you for all of that, can really get cracking on with it now, plus another book for me to point Mrs SG towards when she asks what presents I want.

 

Don't worry DM, I'm not thinking 3D print (hate to think what that would cost). I'm edging towards Laser cut plastic kit for the bigger bits (Sides, ends, roof, seats, doors, etc) and off-the-peg LGB for details (corridor connectors, Air pipes, Bogies, etc). There's a certain baseboard cutter just up the road that's happy to give it a go when I've got the art sorted. The smooth curves from the sides to the ends will be interesting, slightly too thick plastic for sides and ends and a router attachment for the Dremel maybe? I don't think designing the ends onto the sides then curving the ends with heat will give good consistent results. 

[brigo]

BVZ drawings from

 

BRIG-VISP-ZERMATT Geschichte und Rollmaterial by Theo Stolz & Dieter Schopfer. 

Union Druck + Verlag AG, Solothurn.  ISBN 3 907976 00 2

 

Printed in 1983. For anyone interested in the BVZ prior to this date it is a must have book. Seems to be available 2nd hand

 

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/brig-visp-zermatt-geschichte-und-rollmaterial/author/stolz-theo-schopfer-dieter/

 

Brunig drawings from Claude Jeanmaire's book.

 

Brian

[Satan's Goldfish]

but glueing 3D printed parts is reportedly difficult.

Yes. Yes it is. Found it best to give a thick spray paint to 3d print parts before trying to glue them. I do like the idea of structural corner moulds though with the sides and ends fitted to them, good idea.

[Gordonwis]

Drawings for BVZ and Brunig coaches

 

Brunig CE Coaches.pdf

 

 

 

Brian

 

 

Yep, that's the drawings I was quoting from in the SBB publication.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Gordonwis

[Satan's Goldfish]

Big thanks to all above for the useful info, I have started building! This is my first hoped victim in 'G':

 

https://www.reynaulds.com/products/Bemo/3258213.aspx

 

I've been learning Autocad, and thanks to Tim Horn the first test bits were laser cut today.

 

Base, inner sides, top frame, and roof frame slotted together:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Centre sides and roof vents stuck on:

(centre sides will be clear pieces for windows on final build, already noticed an error by this stage (more on that at the end) so no point using good material for this test cut)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Outer sides and ends stuck on:

 

 

 

There's obviously still a lot to design, inner walls, seats, tables doors, roof skin, etc.

 

This was a test cut and fit to find any issues so far before getting too into it. I've used a scale of 1/22.5 which has worked out great for height and length but not so good for width. Compared to an LGB coach it's too fat. I suspect this is down to scale compromises with the LGB model as often happens in G, so I'll have to redraw it about 8mm narrower to fit better with the other models.

 

 

 

 

There's a couple of other minor tweaks to do as well as adding the interior, but it's not gone too bad for a first effort.

[Satan's Goldfish]

That's looking good SG. Careful, you may attract fellow G-scalers who'd also want one, or more, of these cars. Before you know it, you're a cottage industry!

Cheers DM. Part way through the first couple of drawings I did start to think the BVZ 2nd class may have been a more sensible (and smaller!) option to have started with.

 

Forgot to add, I'm going to use LGB parts for some of the external bits. Namely bogies, end corridor bellows, buffers, and end pipe work. The bogie centre is already cut into the base, I just need to strip the end of the LGB coach to get the hole locations and sizes for all the end detail. I need to investigate their lighting strips too...

[Satan's Goldfish]

Some nagging doubt set in during the week over the width reduction I wanted to do to match the LGB coaches. So this morning I've unboxed the Kiss middle entrance coaches to check their dimensions.

 

Windows are spot on. This is looking through a Kiss 2nd class window to the 2nd class portion of my test cut:

 

 

 

 

Turns out the Kiss coaches are a few mm wider (and lower) than LGB too:

 

 

 

 

And mine line up really well

 

 

 

I hadn't noticed that Kiss were so different to LGB when running them together in the garden so I think I'll get away with this.

 

Just details to add to the ends/doors and the internal details left to do

[Satan's Goldfish]

As things progress (and I discover annoying issues like LGB no longer providing the bogies I'd measured up for as spares), it's time to ask; does anyone know of a good image source for the pictures on the side of the Furka Oberalp 'sport wagen' coaches? Google searches haven't proved useful, but Bemo must have got them from somewhere. Thanks.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Thanks DM. I had wondered about going to Bemo or MGB direct and asking. I think I'll get the necessary coach bodies made first so I've got something to show when I go pleading to them!

[PaulRhB]

On the roof your formers appear to be full profile? If so is it worth reducing the profile by a mm or two so a slightly thicker material for the roof skin sits flush on the outside or you are going to have to use very thin material which might deform with handling in the garden.

I looked at etching RhB G scale coaches years ago before I changed to the HSB. The laser cut wood, (or plastic), looks very good. Can you get the windows laser cut from clear sheet and glue them in with canopy glue, or clearglaze?

Edited February 15, 2018 by PaulRhB

[Satan's Goldfish]

 

On the roof your formers appear to be full profile? If so is it worth reducing the profile by a mm or two so a slightly thicker material for the roof skin sits flush on the outside or you are going to have to use very thin material which might deform with handling in the garden.

I looked at etching RhB G scale coaches years ago before I changed to the HSB. The laser cut wood, (or plastic), looks very good. Can you get the windows laser cut from clear sheet and glue them in with canopy glue, or clearglaze?

 

 

The end formers were accidently full profile height (this has now been amended) but width wise they allow for a 1mm roof skin to be fitted over the top. I'm hoping that's thick enough to be durable but not too thick that it's awkward to form the shape. It's not clear on the pictures but the roof vents also have an extra 1mm depth on the base so they sit in holes in the roof rather than on the surface.

 

I did think about creating it as a thick side with fit in windows, and that is certainly doable as I've used similar for the entrance door design, but went with the 'sandwich' method as it's easier for my clumsy modelling hooves to achieve a good finish! the LGB and Kiss coaches also have a roughly 1mm lip to the glazing so it matches them quite well.

 

There's been a lot of drawing additions and amendments since knocking that first one up, will hopefully have it finished and cut by the end of next week all being well.

 

As an aside, the first item I had test cut was an overlay in plastic for 4mm scale container flats, and they also came out very well so this does work in small scales too.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Just back from having prototype kit no.2 cut out by Mr Horn. We're amazed at how well it's come out (to the point I've now got to get it ready to take to an exhibition tomorrow, I was hoping to paint the parts before fixing it together!). This is good enough to end up becoming a completed model, there's only a couple of minor corrections required to the drawings and it's on to other middle entrance coach types

 

Quick 'show off' picture before I start putting it together properly. This is just with the inner sides sat in place. Yes it's now sat properly on bogies and yes it has an interior :)

 

[PaulRhB]

Very nice I'm sure a selection proper length RhB coaches would sell well too if you want to finance more locos

No I'm not going back to LGB I've kept three locos and it's staying at that

[Satan's Goldfish]

I only had 3 locos once... you know you'll end up with more again which 3 do you have still? I am eyeing up other potential coaches to create, but I've got 5 different designs of middle entrance coach to get through first. I'm not on any garden railway forums, do you know if others would be interested in these if it comes out good enough and I make the kit available? The BVZ 7 window 2nd comes in at less 600mm which some might find useful.

 

Next major hurdle will be creating bogies as LGB aren't providing the 'correct' ones as spares anymore. But I have an idea for that...

 

 

 

Some construction shots. Top of chassis:

 

 

 

 

Underside of chassis:

 

 

All of which will be receiving a good coating of black paint eventually. The bogie mounts finish off with a couple of repair washers that the bogies rest on, and a nyloc nut to hold it all together.

 

Seats and internal walls, 2+2 for 2nd class:

 

 

 

 

 

And 1+2 for 1st class:

 

 

The 1st class +2 seats are wider than those in 2nd class.

 

Top frame sits on top of the internal walls. Little blocks have been added to the underside of it to accept screws through the sides and ends:

 

 

 

 

3 layer Sides and 2 layer ends are now screwed on:

 

 

The plastic is usefully red on one side and white on the other. I still need to counter sink for the screws (And remove the protective plastic from the sides and ends), but this will need to all come apart again for painting anyway so it will be done later. Also visible through the windows is the small wall mounted tables between the seats.

 

That's all for now, no full reveal yet

[PaulRhB]

GScaleCentral may have a few interested especially in RhB models if you go there and I'm sure it would attract a few of the others as it spread. Not talking huge numbers but if you had a rough guide to price and pics of this it might interest a few I know.

I've just got Heidi, Rhätia and a Krok left out of eleven RhB locos

[Satan's Goldfish]

Nice, everyone needs a krok on their mantle piece!

 

Rough calculations, It's less than £90 in materials and screws/bolts so far. The bogie frames shouldn't add much if any more to it. Plus the cost of the LGB parts; buffers, corridor connections, wheel sets, etc. By no stretch a professional kit, but as a scratch building aid that you can keep adding detail to It's great. Made sure there's holes left for handrails, interior lighting, all the end pipes, Roof lifts off for interior access...

[Satan's Goldfish]

2.0 alongside 1.0. It will become version 2.1 next as I want to make some tweaks to the design (Not 3.0 as I don't think Mrs SG would be amused at 3 of these in the livingroom!) but the majority of it is now good for moving on with

 

 

 

 

 

Chased up the sheet for the roof skin, a fresh sheet is being sent.

 

3.0 will be the BVZ 7 window second...

[Satan's Goldfish]

I think I need to find a wall to bang my head against.

 

I've been designing the various holes on the ends to take existing LGB pipes and cables, plus corridor connectors. Apart from buffers, I now can't find any of these as extra spares. I'd like to keep the LGB compatible mounting positions for convenience, any advance on bending suitable diameter black wire for the cables and pipes to fit them?! Think i'll hit the rum before touching the end corridors. Bogie design is done and looks good (to me), just need a test cut and work out how long it's 16 M3 bolts need to be... On the plus side, thanks to Wednesdays 'Snow day', all the drawings are done ready for cutting the BVZ 7 window 2nd and the SBB 9 window 2nd

[Satan's Goldfish]

First test on very unlevel rails. No problems

 

[PaulRhB]

I hope the heaters are good in that coach, they've left the sunroof open