Greenbrier & Elk River Rail Road, WV

[2996 Victor]

Why the Greenbrier & Elk River Rail Road in HO? I really don't know! Having grown up with Swindon and the Great Western Railway, this project is going to be a huge departure for me! And it couldn't be much more different to my other current project, based on Derbyshire's Ashover Light Railway.

 

Inspiration comes from unlikely sources. Over the years, I've bought the odd copy of Model Railroader, and a recent visit sans children to PECO found me staring at their Coldfoot Creek O-scale narrow gauge layout. I'm not sure how I arrived at the G&ERR, but it was probably via a google search of logging railroads. Videos of the Cass Scenic RR and their amazing Shays were a huge catalyst.

 

So, how far have I progressed? Not far, it must be said. Only a vague desire for a Shay. And a trestle. And a line passing under said trestle. I've sketched up what seems to be a decent enough track layout, it includes a locomotive shed and basic facilities and a "junk" siding, three sidings for sorting log cars which will be a 5,3,3 Inglenook for some shunting fun, and a "through" line ostensibly from logging camp to lumber mill. It has an elevated line crossing the "through" line and a river on the trestle. I haven't decided yet whether the elevated line is part of the same route gaining height via a switchback or a different through-running road such as the Western Maryland.

 

I've tentatively set the time period at around 1910,when the G&ERR became the Greenbrier, Cheat and Elk Rail Road.

 

As I'm a complete novice as far as American rail roads are concerned, this is a huge learning curve. My biggest issue at this early stage is getting an understanding of operational practices. The G&ERR/GC&ERR was a logging railroad, so although G&ERR/GC&ERR connected to the [edit] Chesapeake & Ohio's Greenbrier branch, I need to understand whether other types of car (i.e. not logging cars) from other rail roads would have found their way onto it's metals, for example taking supplies to the logging camps/towns like Spruce. And if so, whose cars they were and what they looked like! Not easy, I fear!

 

If through working didn't occur, then the elevated line will belong to the Western Maryland (which it may anyway!), which will give me the opportunity to run "normal" freight and passenger trains for a bit of variety.

 

I also need to get an understanding of US freight car design practices up to my 1910 time frame. For instance, did US rail road companies primarily buy rolling stock from private companies, or did they build their own? I've taken the plunge and bought a couple of items of stock, firstly a Bachmann G&ERR bobber caboose, and secondly a vintage Red Ball Models kit for two wooden hoppers. I'd like to know how accurate the Bachmann caboose is, and whether the hoppers are in any way appropriate. And I'm going to need a whole lot of logging cars, so I need to know whether the commercially available items are appropriate or could be modified to suit.

 

There should also be a Bachmann 3-truck Shay crossing the Atlantic soon.....I hope its an accurate model!

 

Anyway, that's all for now. More updates to follow when something actually happens.....

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

Edited March 22, 2018 by 2996 Victor

[2996 Victor]

Well, already I'm beginning to think that I've taken on more than I thought! I can see that there may be a slight change of focus with the projected layout, with the main line side of things being a little more prominent than I originally thought.

 

As mentioned above, I'm a complete novice when it comes to US-outline rail roads, their working practices and of course rolling stock. It's already looking like I've chosen one of the most difficult eras to model using accurate rolling stock - typical!   

 

Maybe its because I'm in the UK, but finding suppliers of accurate models of 1880s-1910 cars is proving surprisingly difficult so far. Many hours of internet smurfing over the last few weeks has thrown up but a handful, so far the most promising of which appear to be these:

 

Bitter Creek Models at http://www.bittercreekmodels.com/index.html and

 

Rio Grande Models at http://www.riograndemodels.com/index.htm

 

Which brings me back to my current lack of knowledge regarding interchange of cars between different roads. Quite simply, did it occur? And did US railroad companies buy their rolling stock from commercial constructors, in which case it would be reasonable to see identical cars in different liveries.

 

Much more research is going to be needed, I know, but any advice would be gratefully received!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Mark,

 

Welcome to the US, and particularly the Cass / Mower / G&ER logging RR party :-)

 

A couple of quick thoughts and responses...

 

 

 

Baltimore & Ohio's Greenbrier branch

 

IIRC, (and I have "On Beyond Leatherbark : The Cass Saga" by Roy Clarkson on my bedside table as we speak)

The "Greenbrier branch" was a Chesapeake and Ohio branch, not B&O...

 

FYI https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Leatherbark-Cass-Saga/dp/0962470902

 

 

 

I need to understand whether other types of car (i.e. not logging cars) from other rail roads would have found their way onto it's metals, for example taking supplies to the logging camps/towns like Spruce. And if so, whose cars they were and what they looked like! Not easy, I fear!

 

"On Beyond Leatherbark" discusses in great (and sometimes sleep-inducing) detail the interactions with the Cass logging RR, the Cass "Company Store", the C&O at Cass, and the WM beyond Spruce. 
Boxcars of supplies (C&O, WM, B&O) from the C&O or the Company Store,
Hoppers (either steel or "converted flatcar" gondolas),

and the occasional "heavy equipment move" could all be plausible, esp in the "highball heydays" of the line
(IE prior to late 40s/50s)

 

 

 

If through working didn't occur,

 

Given that the Cass logging road was not a common carrier, there wasn't "through working" WM > C&O, or C&O > WM over Cass hill. 
"OBL" also notes that the Spruce and "furthur over the mountains" sections,
(which I'll readily admit is not my personal focus or interest), were mining and shipping significant quantities of coal out over the WM at various stages of the GC&ER line lifetime...

 

 

 

I also need to get an understanding of US freight car design practices up to my 1910 time frame. For instance, did US rail road companies primarily buy rolling stock from private companies, or did they build their own?

 

The short answer is, "either, or both". In the case of Cass, my understanding is that most cars were bought-in, from the earliest days of the line to the end in 1956. If you are looking for a quick flatcar kit which "looks the part" for the later Cass/Mower logging flats, builds up quickly, and goes together very nicely, the Tichy 40' flatcar kits have a lot to offer. They can also be backdated to "wood frame era" with a little ingenuity... ;-)

 

https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/c/ho_freight-car-kits/p/4021/Default.aspx

 

NB that these can be had in "bulk packs", 6x car kits to a pack, undecorated, for a very cost-effective price.
Great way to quickly build up a "fleet roster" of logging flats...

 

 

 

I've taken the plunge and bought a couple of items of stock, firstly a Bachmann G&ERR bobber caboose, and secondly a vintage Red Ball Models kit for two wooden hoppers. I'd like to know how accurate the Bachmann caboose is, and whether the hoppers are in any way appropriate.

 

Unfortunately my understanding is that the Bobber isn't really accurate for Cass / Mower era ops, as Cass trains did not generally run with cabooses
(Check out Youtube for what is by-now a "old skool" rip of the VHS "Cass and Mower" tape, the period footage tells the tale...)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFmtColta_0

 

The Wood hoppers are likely "plausible" for small coal shipments, tacked on the tail of MT uphill trains from Cass, for feeding the steam yarders and loaders hauling the logs to the railhead furthur up the mountain. You'll find Tichy also has plausible "olde timey" hoppers, again in excellent kit form...

 

https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/c/ho_freight-car-kits/p/4012/Default.aspx
(a couple of added "hungry boards" for additional coal capacity might be called for... and just look cool :-) )

 

 

 

And I'm going to need a whole lot of logging cars, so I need to know whether the commercially available items are appropriate or could be modified to suit.

 

See above. Cass made extensive use of car-mounted loaders such as Barnhart and American loaders.

 

http://www.msrlha.org/barnhart.pdf

 

http://lumbermuseum.org/historic-logging-locomotive-photos/barnhart-log-loader-1/

 

http://lumbermuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/Barnhart.jpg

 

To host these cars, Cass used flatcars (See Tichy flatcar references above)
with (4x4?) lengths of timber running along the edges of the deck to form "rails".
The Barnharts worked their way along the rake of cars, loading the cars as they went...

 

 

 

There should also be a Bachmann 3-truck Shay crossing the Atlantic soon.....I hope its an accurate model!

 

The B'mann shay is a reasonably "heavy" shay, but is a nice match for Cass #5, one of the last operating shays on the line (along with the 2nd #2).
As soon as it gets in, check the sideshaft gears for splits or cracks,
(both visually, and audibly!)

 

and don't be afraid to assert a factory warranty call if you do find any such issues "fresh out of the box"...
(Assuming it clears this check, it should be a smooth and long-serving loco. I have had three of them thru the works and all were fine,
but cracked lineshaft spur gears are a commonly-reported issue, esp with "mid production" units from a few years ago.
NWSL have replacement metal gears, but as a "brand new one" we kinda expect it to work "from the box" first go... ;-) )

 

Again, welcome to the US Logging party,
looking forward to hearing more of your adventure...

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

 

PS Furthur reading references:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Leatherbark-Cass-Saga/dp/0962470902

 

https://www.amazon.com/Tumult-Mountains-Lumbering-Virginia-1770-1920/dp/0870120042/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1505997651

 

https://www.amazon.com/Shay-Logging-Locomotive-Virginia-1900-60/dp/1883089654/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1505997673

 

http://www.msrlha.org/

 

https://www.amazon.com/Durbin-Route-Greenbrier-Division-Chesapeake/dp/0933126565 

 

http://www.carendt.com/articles/secrets-of-designing-micro-layouts/

Edited September 22, 2017 by Prof Klyzlr

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Mark,

 

In order of appearance...

 

 

Maybe its because I'm in the UK, but finding suppliers of accurate models of 1880s-1910 cars is proving surprisingly difficult so far. Many hours of internet smurfing over the last few weeks has thrown up but a handful, so far the most promising of which appear to be these:

 

Bitter Creek Models at http://www.bittercre....com/index.html and

 

Rio Grande Models at http://www.riogrande...s.com/index.htm

 

Bitter Creek look to be a bit _too_old_ for the era you're looking for, and certainly too-old for the "highball heyday" of the GC&ER / Cass / Mower operations. I would have picked many of them to be late 1800s, as opposed to "new in the 1910s"...

 

Rio Grande Models is primarily interested in HOn3 narrow gauge equipment, so is unlikely to be the appropriate width (body) or gauge (wheels/trucks) for your HO SG GC&ER / Cass / Mower inspiration. 

 

As above, I'd reccomend checking your resource material (see reading list above), and then assessing options such as the Tichy kits...

 

 

Which brings me back to my current lack of knowledge regarding interchange of cars between different roads. Quite simply, did it occur? 

 

Yes... between the "common carrier" railroads.

 

Consider, the C&O did not run all the way west to California,
so when a Californian company wanted "aircraft grade spruce" from Cass,
- Cass Lumber ran logs down the hill to the mill at Cass
- The sawmill turned logs into dimensional lumber
- That lumber was loaded into 40' boxcars, likely of "eastern road" ownership (C&O, B&O, WM, et al)
- those cars were shipped west to a point where they interchanged onto a western road, (SP? ATSF? UP?), 
- who then delivered the car to the Californian company in question...

 

The point being, for "Industrial" and other "privately-owned and operated" railroads, the "interchange" of cars was usually limited to the actual needs of the industry/railroad in question.
Cass / Mower / GC&ER were not "through roads"

 

IE Foreign Rd ABC > Interchange > Cass RR > Interchange > Foreign RR DEF

 

but rather the Cass operation "shipped lumber" (in cars supplied by the C&O),
and received cars of supplies (boxcars delivered by C&O to "the Cass Company Store spur, Cass, W.Va"),
and equipment/materials (Coal hoppers, delivered by C&O to Cass RR at Cass, the Cass RR then spotted them at the Cass RR coal dock, or ran them up the hill to feed the steam yarders).

 

 

 And did US railroad companies buy their rolling stock from commercial constructors, in which case it would be reasonable to see identical cars in different liveries.

 

Yes, the majority of "common carrier" railroads frequently purchased their cars from dedicated railcar manufacturers,
(Google "Pacific Car and Foundry", "Willamette Iron and Steel", "Washington Iron Works", "American Car and Foundry", "Seattle Car and Foundry")

 

http://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/builders/pacific_car.htm 

 

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=4rxovTxv-tcC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=skeleton+logging+cars+manufacturers&source=bl&ots=ndCBRe2Pr9&sig=zqXo7yoj9MqM8dXv41_VfXhxoRc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjlku2zq7bWAhVLVLwKHVLAAsoQ6AEIXTAM#v=onepage&q=skeleton%20logging%20cars%20manufacturers&f=false

 

http://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/builders/Images/Seattlecar_Advert_lrg.jpg

 

although esp in the early days, some railroad companies took a great deal of pride in their own "railroad shops" and turned out 100s, if not 1000s of "home road cars" of their own.
(unfortunately it's hard to pin-down specific examples or "rules of thumb" to work with, without first pinning-down the specific RR, era, and location we're talking-about...)

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

[2996 Victor]

Dear Prof,

 

many thanks for your kind words of welcome and for your replies - I'm really not sure where to begin!

 

Firstly, I think I must confess to my schoolboy error at the outset. You're of course absolutely right - the Greenbrier Branch was Chesapeake & Ohio, not Baltimore & Ohio! Geographical confusion brought about by railroad overload - at least, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. 

 

I think I'll have to find myself a copy of On Beyond Leatherbark - it sounds like a mine of information and just what I need. I don't expect I'd ever have discovered it if you hadn't mentioned it. From what you've said, OBL seems to discuss in detail the workings of the Cass railroad, and the interaction between it and the adjacent main line companies. Useful to know that their boxcars may have ventured onto the Cass with stores etc. I haven't checked out the rest of your reading list yet, but I will over the next couple of days. I also had a brief flick through the Cass & Mower Logging Trains vid - I'll watch it properly when I've got a bit more spare time. I did see some interesting period footage of the line when it was working, i.e. before restoration, which is fascinating for an Englishman - nothing like it happened this side of the Pond. Especially the loaders!

 

As regards the rolling stock itself, thanks for your pointers. Over here, most of the railway companies built their own rolling stock to their own designs; if they contracted out to private builders, the private builders would still build to the railway company's designs. Seeing box cars that are largely the same in different road's liveries needs a change of mindset - it makes me think of the bad old days in UK modelling, when one (usually fictional!) model could be found in half-a-dozen different railway company liveries. It sounds like my Bobber Caboose could be a case in point - ah well, c'est la vie! Perhaps I could turn it into the obligatory wreck at the bottom of a ravine 

 

I do like the idea of the wooden hoppers carrying coal - I've had a look at the Tichy Train Group models - it'd be good to know if they're of a specific prototype - as they look the part, plus the Red Ball kits I've bought look almost too precious to assemble - they're almost antiques! I'm intrigued to know what "hungry boards" are!!! As for the logging flats, again I'd be keen to find something appropriate for my projected timeframe, so if the Tichy 40-footers could be "back-dated" that'd be ideal. I just need some suitable data to work from..... I see that Kadee do skeleton logging cars and disconnected logging cars - any thoughts?

 

Thanks for the clarification on through-running - if I'm understanding you correctly, there would be some through-running of rolling stock to save trans-shipment of cargo, but it wouldn't be trans-continental. So presumably, and assuming my projected high-level track is operated by A N Other main-line company, it would be reasonable even in 1910 to see the odd car from another company in a train formation? With the Bitter Creek rolling stock, my thinking was that some of their later box cars or flats might have survived in increasingly run-down condition into my timeframe. Rio Grande, as you say, are mostly narrow gauge, although they do some standard gauge cars. But given what you were saying about through-running, I think that perhaps their home roads would be too far west.

 

Good to know the Shay is appropriate. Unfortunately, its not new so I'll give it a good check over when it arrives. It looks to be in good condition, so fingers crossed all will be well.

 

Track will be the next thing to think about, I suppose. I'll want to go with something appropriate of course, which would seem to be fairly lightweight. I'm not good with a soldering iron - I can make electrical connections but that's about it. I've had a look at Proto87's track, and today came across Central Valley Models' track also.

 

Thanks again for your excellent pointers - the reading list should keep me quiet for a while!

 

And if I think of anything else to ask, be prepared!

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Mark,

 

In order of appearance:

 

 

 

the Greenbrier Branch was Chesapeake & Ohio, not Baltimore & Ohio!

 

Righto then, for a view of Cass "from the C&O perspective", add the following to your reading list... ;-)

 

https://www.amazon.com/Durbin-Route-Greenbrier-Division-Chesapeake/dp/0933126565

 

 

 

 I also had a brief flick through the Cass & Mower Logging Trains vid - I'll watch it properly when I've got a bit more spare time.

 

Strongly reccomended, if you use the "Cass and Mower" vid as your reference, and nail the translation to model form,
there's very few modellers or railfans anywhere worldwide who could validly challenge the resulting display...

 

 

 

As regards the rolling stock itself,.... It sounds like my Bobber Caboose could be a case in point 

 

Check out the Mountain State Railroad and Logging site, http://www.msrlha.org/

It shows a shorty 4-wheel "bobber" caboose which was on the property under "preservation era",
which may be where B'mann took it's inspiration for producing the model,
despite said caboose not being a "genuine in-revenue service" item of rollingstock.

 

http://www.msrlha.org/roster-stock.html#bobber

 

The key here is, pick the specific time-period/RR era you are modelling,
and pay attention to when the "curious" piece of rollingstock ran on the line...
(The Cass logging trains have at least 3 distinct "periods",
- Cass Logging RR 
- Mower Lumber Co
- and in "preservation mode" as Cass Scenic RR)

 

 

 

 I'm intrigued to know what "hungry boards" are!!!

 

"Hungry boards" are either wood or steel extensions, added to the top of the hopper sides and ends to give more cubic capacity. This is a way to allow physically-smaller hoppers which may have been previously used for heavy/dense loads (like iron ore) to re repurposed for lighter/less-dense loads such as woodchips.

 

As a live fire example, check out the following "coal hopper" below

 

 

and compare with the same hopper adapted with "hungry boards" for lighter/less-dense "woodchip service"

 

 

 

 

As for the logging flats, again I'd be keen to find something appropriate for my projected timeframe

 

Respectfully, I think that some time spent going thru the links and reading-material will repay in nailing-down exactly what cars were used at given times/periods...

 

 

 

so if the Tichy 40-footers could be "back-dated" that'd be ideal. I just need some suitable data to work from

 

See above... :-)

 

 

 

 I see that Kadee do skeleton logging cars and disconnected logging cars - any thoughts?

 

The Kadee logging cars are gorgeous metal kits which run-well. However:
- They are quite $$ for what they are
- They are largely not appropriate for "Cass Logging" or "Mower Lumber" (IE Revenue service) era operations

 

Take another long hard look at the "Cass and Mower" video,
- The "period footage" clearly shows rakes of flatcars, 
- it is only the "Preservation era" footage which shows mixed-rakes of flats-and-skels in one train
(The "Cass Shays" book also gives many good shots of the "revenue flats",
one of the keynote details which may denote early "Cass" VS later "Mower" era flatcars is the pattern of stake pockets along the frame...)

 

Again, the Tichy "bulk pack" of steel flatcar kits simply can't be beat for cars-per-$,
ease of kit assembly,
and "looks like a Cass logging flatcar" at-a-glance impression
(I have built a few rakes of "Cass Flatcars" from Tichy flatcars previously,
but all of my equipment is currently in-storage and I haven't been able to unearth any pics at this time... :-( )

 

 

 

if I'm understanding you correctly, there would be some through-running of rolling stock to save trans-shipment of cargo, but it wouldn't be trans-continental

 

That's not entirely true. A car could well travel from NYC to LA, clear accross the continental US,
going thru a couple of "interchange" hand-offs along the route. The simple guide is:
- where was the car loaded?
- where is it waybilled to? (IE where does it need to take that load to?)

 

If the RR which handles the "where the car was loaded" is not the same RR which services the industry the car is destined to deliver "the load" to, then there has to be "an interchange" hand-off somewhere between the two RRs in question (and quite possibly some intermediate RR's handling the car along the way).

 

 

 

 

So presumably ... it would be reasonable even in 1910 to see the odd car from another company in a train formation?

 

Certainly, for common carrier railroads. A C&O freight hauling along the Greenbrier branch would well have Western Maryland, B&O, or other "eastern road" lines.

 

 

 

Track will be the next thing to think about, I suppose. I'll want to go with something appropriate of course, which would seem to be fairly lightweight. I'm not good with a soldering iron - I can make electrical connections but that's about it. I've had a look at Proto87's track, and today came across Central Valley Models' track also.

 

Given cost, I'd be inclined to opt for PECO Code 83 "US Geometry" for the C&O branch. Appropriate details, and proper "angled frog" turnouts. I would be surprised if it wasn't cheaper and more-readily-available in the UK than Central Valley trackwork.

 

I would also note that if you're not already a keen "trackwork fan", PECO's Ready-to-Run trackwork (turnouts) is likely a lot easier to deploy than the (exquisite) Proto87 options. Please NB, I'm not saying that the Proto87 stuff is bad or anything like that, only that, like Clint Eastwood said, "...a man's gotta know his limitations..."
(Is your focus the trackwork itself, of the whole "logging RR in the W.Va mountains" scene?)

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

[2996 Victor]

Hi Prof,

 

Once again, many, many thanks for all your sage advice, and most importantly, patience with a novice in this sphere!

 

I will most definitely be studying the references you've given me in great depth. So I apologise if it looks like I'm trying to take an easy route of minimal research - not true! I just need to know where to look!

 

On which note, would you say that "The American Railroad Freight Car" by John Has White, Jr, is a good investment?

 

Apologies that this is a short reply, more an acknowledgement, but this is a "children weekend" - a (hopefully!) once-a-fortnight occasion full of fun activities and much busyness!

 

Cheers for now!

 

Mark

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Mark,

 

 

 

On which note, would you say that "The American Railroad Freight Car" by John Has White, Jr, is a good investment?

 

Short version : Depends.

 

- If the focus of your modelling is the finer details of US freight car development and evolution, then sure

 

- If the focus of your modelling is "emulating the typical day-to-day operations of a specific RR in a specific geographic location at a specific time period",
(say, "Mower Lumber Co railroad and C&O Greenbrier branch, Cass W.Va, circa 1950-56")

 

then I'd actually say

 

"No, likely not directly helpful or relevant to your core focus,
if you get it at a bargain then it could be an interesting general addition to the Library,
but I'd reccomend spending the $$ on research material more-specifically-relevant to the core inspiration/theme you're interested in..."

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

[2996 Victor]

Further scratching of the surface (I'd hesitate to call it digging, let alone research!) has led me to consider that it might perhaps make more sense, at this stage, to migrate my chosen period forward a little to around 1920. The availability of kits for common-carrier rolling stock for the Class 1 railroad aspect of the layout the seems to be more plentiful than for 1910. However, the jury is still out, and the decision will depend on the outcome of further research.

 

Prof:

Again, thanks for your suggested reading - the first few items of research material in book form are on their way to my humble abode, so I'm looking forward to diving in! I was looking at a copy of On Beyond Leatherbark, but the cost of shipping tips it over my budget for this month. I am going to get a copy of "The Model Railroader's Guide to Logging Railroads"! I'm ashamed to say that various things have so far conspired against my having time to watch the Cass & Mower Logging Trains vid.....and then I can think about ordering some of Tichy's products!

Oh, thanks for the explanation of hungry boards - that makes perfect sense now that you've explained the term! I'm sure I'll be poring over photos before long looking for a suitable prototype.

 

In the meantime, the first few odds and ends have been arriving!

 

Cheers for now,

 

Mark

[skipepsi]

Further scratching of the surface (I'd hesitate to call it digging, let alone research!) has led me to consider that it might perhaps make more sense, at this stage, to migrate my chosen period forward a little to around 1920. The availability of kits for common-carrier rolling stock for the Class 1 railroad aspect of the layout the seems to be more plentiful than for 1910. However, the jury is still out, and the decision will depend on the outcome of further research.

 

Prof:

Again, thanks for your suggested reading - the first few items of research material in book form are on their way to my humble abode, so I'm looking forward to diving in! I was looking at a copy of On Beyond Leatherbark, but the cost of shipping tips it over my budget for this month. I am going to get a copy of "The Model Railroader's Guide to Logging Railroads"! I'm ashamed to say that various things have so far conspired against my having time to watch the Cass & Mower Logging Trains vid.....and then I can think about ordering some of Tichy's products!

Oh, thanks for the explanation of hungry boards - that makes perfect sense now that you've explained the term! I'm sure I'll be poring over photos before long looking for a suitable prototype.

 

In the meantime, the first few odds and ends have been arriving!

 

Cheers for now,

 

Mark

Also known as 'Greedy' boards 

[2996 Victor]

My copy of "The Durbin Route" by William Price McNeel arrived today   It looks to be a good and informative read, with some good photos for the C&O aspect of my layout. Slightly disappointed with the book itself, which is new not second-hand, as the binding doesn't seem terribly sound.....

 

I've decided to go with early 1920s instead of my original time-frame, at least at the outset, so I'm looking forward to the arrival of a few tasty little kits from one Mr Don Tichy!

 

As I've noted elsewhere in my Ashover Light Railway thread, I picked up a rather neat little laser-cut board crossing on ebay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Laser-Cut-OO-Gauge-Railway-Track-Foot-or-Barrow-Crossing-Pack-of-5-Crossings which I think might also fit in quite well in a West Virginia yard 

 

 

Yes, the loco is a Western Maryland 2-10-0, which may yet find it's way onto the projected high-level track!

 

Cheers for now,

 

Mark

Edited April 29, 2018 by 2996 Victor

[2996 Victor]

And, meanwhile, sketching of the layout's track plan continues.....version 4 is about to be superseded, and hopefully the finalised rough sketch isn't too far away!

[2996 Victor]

I recently happened upon this delightfully atmospheric photograph:

 

 

On closer inspection, the Shay looks like it has the number "2" on its smokebox door.

 

Of especial interest is the end of the box car, which has very fine matchboard sides and archbar trucks, and appears to have a roof walkway. Probably enough detail from which to build a model - the company initials and running number are a definite bonus!

 

Also noteworthy is the fact that the car is lettered for the Greenbrier, Cheat & Elk Railroad, while the Shay retains the Greenbrier & Elk River RR name on its tender.

 

Meanwhile, my first loco arrived yesterday, all the way from Monticello, Kentucky    Apologies for the slightly dingy photograph:

 

 

Dust seems to be a bit of a problem on these logging roads.....

 

Cheers for now!

 

Mark

Edited April 29, 2018 by 2996 Victor

[2996 Victor]

So today there arrived from the United States of America a copy of "The American Railroad Freight Car" by John H White, Jr.

 

This is no mere book, this is a Tome! It makes "A History of GWR Goods Wagons" by Atkins, Beard, Hyde and Tourret look like a pamphlet.....

 

Whether or not it will be of enormous help with the logging aspect my G&ERRR project, I don't know, but I'm sure it will be a mine of excellent information for the common carrier side of the layout.

 

And furthermore, this book, or rather Tome, will by virtue of its covering in as much detail as exists the early years of American railroads, prove invaluable in my other other burgeoning project: an HO-scale layout set during the War Between the States.

 

Of course, I can't say yet just how good "The American Railroad Freight Car" will prove to be, as it would take several months to read from cover to cover. Instead, I'll dip in and out as I need, which promises to be a both fascinating and enlightening process.

 

Cheers for now!

 

Mark

Edited October 10, 2017 by 2996 Victor

[2996 Victor]

The first real rolling stock kits have arrived from Tichy Train Group.

 

I have to say the quality of the mouldings looks superb: the detail is crisp and light, the parts look to be completely free of flash - I'm really looking forward to assembling them! Pics to follow, of course.

 

So far, I have a six-pack (the only one I've ever had, or indeed am likely to!) of 40' flat car kits, two 55-ton two-bay hopper kits, and a pair of wooden ore hoppers (just because), plus suitable decals. I'm going to need a whole lot more.....

 

Cheers for now!

 

Mark

[Talltim]

As you've moved forward in time, there are a lot more kits available, certainly for the more general boxcars, flats, hoppers and gondola from other lines. Check out Funaro and camerlengo, Westerfield, Sunshine, Owl Mountain, some Accurail, some Bowser. There's also some RTR suitable.

It's a bit after my period, which is similar to your original choice. I've found that there's kind of a gap, a fair few kits for stuff from some manufacturers which is too early and would be in limited use by the period and from other manufacturers I have to pick just their earliest stuff.

[2996 Victor]

As you've moved forward in time, there are a lot more kits available, certainly for the more general boxcars, flats, hoppers and gondola from other lines. Check out Funaro and camerlengo, Westerfield, Sunshine, Owl Mountain, some Accurail, some Bowser. There's also some RTR suitable.

It's a bit after my period, which is similar to your original choice. I've found that there's kind of a gap, a fair few kits for stuff from some manufacturers which is too early and would be in limited use by the period and from other manufacturers I have to pick just their earliest stuff.

Hi,

 

Many thanks for your message!

 

Being new to US-outline model railroads, the gap in availability of rolling stock for the period around 1910 was my reason for migrating my era to around 1920 (for the time being, at least - ideally, I'll revert to 1910 in due course). The Tichy Train Group USRA flats and box cars from the late WW1 era are a case in point. So, many thanks for the pointers to other suppliers.

 

Some of the later items from Bitter Creek, for instance, would have survived into the 1910s, and maybe to 1920 or so, and I'll be getting a few of those as they'll be of use for both time frames. I've got their 1890s box car on order as it looks to be a fairly suitable match for the boxcar in the photo above, which would probably have been a second-hand piece of former mainline stock for the GC&ER.

 

Any other suggestions would be gratefully received!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Talltim]

Just thought of another kit manufacturer, Sylvan for the 20s period. However having googled them it appears that they have got out of producing rail vehicle kits

Also check Speedwitch Media, some of their stuff may suit 1920s and some is too new

Amesville Shops produce a few kits suitable for the 1910s period, although as they are mid to late 1800s again most would getting on a bit by 1910

Edited October 24, 2017 by Talltim

[2996 Victor]

My copy of "On Beyond Leatherbark: The Cass Saga" by Roy B Clarkson has arrived at last, as recommended by Prof Klyzlr in one of the above posts.

 

Although I've not yet had an opportunity to delve too deeply, there would seem to be a wealth of information to be gleaned.

 

Being, I suppose, a bit greedy, I was rather hoping for a few more photos to depict the actual railroad and its rolling stock. There are quite a few photographs with trains of flat cars, which show useful detail, but invariably the locomotive is the focus of the picture. However, there are several which are good detail pictures of staked flats, one of which is a gem: a flat car being loaded which shows in remarkable clarity the company name and running number stencilled on the sill   I just need to find a model which is tolerably close (hopefully my Tichy 40-footers will do!).

 

On which point, can I say "thanks" again, Talltim, for the additional pointers. I've had a look at the Funaro & Camarlengo, Westerfield and Owl Mountain sites, but I'll need to go back and study them more closely! Unfortunately, I haven't yet got my head around the Series numbers, so it's a bit confusing.....

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

Edited January 5, 2018 by 2996 Victor

[2996 Victor]

there are a couple which are good detail pictures of staked flats, one of which is a gem: a flat car being loaded which shows in remarkable clarity the company name and running number stencilled on the sill   I just need to find a model which is tolerably close (hopefully my Tichy 40-footers will do!).

 

Having studied the photos more, the G&ERRR flat cars are (or all appear to be) wooden-framed, which is not really surprising as the photographs date from 1910-1920, and they have twelve stake pockets along their sills.

 

I may of course be able to adapt my Tichy 40' flat cars, which are a USRA steel-framed design, but ideally I'd prefer to find a 40' wooden-framed flat car in kit form!

[2996 Victor]

Having studied the photos more, the G&ERRR flat cars are (or all appear to be) wooden-framed, which is not really surprising as the photographs date from 1910-1920, and they have twelve stake pockets along their sills.

 

I may of course be able to adapt my Tichy 40' flat cars, which are a USRA steel-framed design, but ideally I'd prefer to find a 40' wooden-framed flat car in kit form!

 

So, has anyone had any experience of JV Models kits?

 

Web address: http://www.jvmodels.biz. They do a 40' truss rod flat car that might suit my needs, item #9205.

Edited October 25, 2017 by 2996 Victor

[Talltim]

I've not come across them before. There seem to be a surprising amount of people produce generic early vehicles like this.

They look very similar to many older US kits, a set of pre-cut wooden parts with plastic details that you stick on. There's nothing wrong with that and they can be very satisfying to build, but to a Brit used to injection moulded kits like Slaters and Cambrian they can be a bit of a culture shock.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Talltim

[2996 Victor]

Those precious shots of G&ERRR flats being loaded:

 

 

 

 

The first shows the Company name clearly, in the second and third it's more difficult to discern, but it's visible.

 

The cars were presumably an off-the-shelf design, but finding suitable representations in HO scale is proving troublesome. Yes, I could scratch-build, but quite frankly, I don't have the time.

 

Edit:

 

Information that has come to light more recently suggests that the cars were the American Car & Foundry 40' design.

 

Among the information referred to in Post #53 are some splendid and invaluable drawings of a batch of GC&E flat cars to an AC&F design, but with wooden-plank queenposts, which had been bought second-hand from the United States Navy in 1918.

 

However, the cars in the photographs above, which being lettered for the Greenbrier & Elk River Rail Road are earlier, have what looks like steel queenposts.

 

Interesting!

Edited April 29, 2018 by 2996 Victor

[2996 Victor]

So, has anyone had any experience of JV Models kits?

 

Web address: http://www.jvmodels.biz. They do a 40' truss rod flat car that might suit my needs, item #9205.

So I e-mailed JV Models, and their car kits are generic rather than models of a specific prototypes.

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Mark,

 

Before you turn yourself in (k)nots over the Tichy steel VS GERR wood flatcar connundrum,
can I reccomend you just build one Tichy car as-is,

paint it a generic "boxcar red",

and then compare it to the above photos?

 

While your left-brain will be screaming "but it's a steel car and the prototype was a wood car",
let your eyes do the comparing,
(apart from the stake pockets and end-beam<>sidebeam interaction,
there aren't a lot of "visual clue details" to key-off in those images,
use that to your advantage!),

 

Said another way, I know I'm struggling to see the "wood grain" of the car components in the photos above,.. ;-)
(and the Tichy car is a straight-frame like the GERR cars, not a "fishbelly sidesill" which would be a key "It's a steel car, and just-not-right" giveaway issue...)

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

 

PS was moving some modelling crates and found my "Cass-esque" Tichy Flatcars,
Now I'm grant that I have not installed the full compliment of stakepockets, 
because in the later Mower-era they did not have "a full set" on each car sidesill,
and they are missing any letter/numbering at the moment,

but IMHO they would certainly pass-muster in a passing-train of "faceless fleet of similar logging flatcars"...

Edited October 29, 2017 by Prof Klyzlr