Having Some Serious Design Block and Need Help

[Seanem44]

I plan on building a WWII era GWR layout.  However, outside of that, and the stock I possess, I am having issues creating a layout I am content with.

 

The problem is expectation versus reality.  I have 14 feet of scenic length on a wall.  I can go as wise as I want, but would like to limit it to between two and three feet.  The fiddle yard will be on an adjacent wall.

 

The problem is I keep waffling on the size of the station and design.  I originally intended to do a truncated version Minehead.  Then I decided on the designed but never used restructuring of Minehead.  Then I decided on not doing something similar to Minehead. 

 

Now I am starting to realize that 14 feet, while it seems like a lot, is not a lot of space.  So now I am back to the clichéd GWR terminus with a few sidings.

 

I know I want the station capable of holding four coaches, so I can run the odd Castle now and then.  (No, not prototypical, but its war).  I also want a siding where I can have an excuse to offload tanks on the three warwells I purchased.

 

Really, I need inspiration and to make a decision, but that's proving to be a daunting task, more so than I thought.  I decided I wanted to use the new peco bullhead track, but the limitations in large radius points will eat up even more room, so I don't even know if I want to go that route. 

 

Really, I need some inspiration, or at the very least direction.  Do I simplify and focus on scenery, or do I stay with a larger station (Minhead like) which afford little scenery.

 

This is like the modelling version of writers block.

[Jack]

Yup, I'm always trying to "squeeze a quart into a pint pot" ...

 

... the problem with rural branch lines and small stations is that in physical terms, they were rarely that small.  land was cheap in the country, so goods yards tended to sprawl over large areas.

 

Therefore think about going to town (or city)!  Urban land, even in the early Victorian era, was expensive, so they crammed more into a smaller space.  This is why Minories is such a genius design, it's a small and plausible plan, but can allow for the running of big trains ... far bigger than Ashburnham.

 

If you don't fancy a GWR style Minories, start looking around at other city track plans.  And the tall buildings often make for great 'view blocks' if you only have space for part of your chosen station.

[Kubes]

Have a look at Kingswear. The site is constricted by the river Dart on one side and the steep South Devon hills on the other. The platform curves round with a turntable and sidings in the corner. Very model railway like!

[Seanem44]

Yup, I'm always trying to "squeeze a quart into a pint pot" ...

 

... the problem with rural branch lines and small stations is that in physical terms, they were rarely that small.  land was cheap in the country, so goods yards tended to sprawl over large areas.

 

Therefore think about going to town (or city)!  Urban land, even in the early Victorian era, was expensive, so they crammed more into a smaller space.  This is why Minories is such a genius design, it's a small and plausible plan, but can allow for the running of big trains ... far bigger than Ashburnham.

 

If you don't fancy a GWR style Minories, start looking around at other city track plans.  And the tall buildings often make for great 'view blocks' if you only have space for part of your chosen station.

You bring up a very interesting point, and one seriously worth considering...  Hadn't thought of that but it makes perfect sense.

[Joseph_Pestell]

You bring up a very interesting point, and one seriously worth considering...  Hadn't thought of that but it makes perfect sense.

 

But one can't see the military offloading tanks at a city centre location.

 

I can't think of any specifically military branches on the GW but there is not reason why there could not have been. So you might like to take a look at Amesbury as a prototype and convert it to GW.

[Harlequin]

There are many track plans in the "OO Minories track plan wanted" thread that might inspire you.

 

I contributed two recently.

A "pure" Minories here (7ft by 1ft! but excluding fiddle yard): http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60091-00-minories-track-plan-wanted/?view=findpost&p=2842274

 

And a slightly expanded version (4m*0.4m including fiddle yard): http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60091-00-minories-track-plan-wanted/?view=findpost&p=2859645

 

Any coastal location is a good excuse for military vehicle offloading and you could really go for it and model a dockside.

 

Phil

[Seanem44]

But one can't see the military offloading tanks at a city centre location.

 

I can't think of any specifically military branches on the GW but there is not reason why there could not have been. So you might like to take a look at Amesbury as a prototype and convert it to GW.

Minehead offloaded tanks as the area was used as a fairly extensive tank training area on the coast.  That is the reason I originally gravitated towards that plan...

There are many track plans in the "OO Minories track plan wanted" thread that might inspire you.

 

I contributed two recently.

A "pure" Minories here (7ft by 1ft! but excluding fiddle yard): http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60091-00-minories-track-plan-wanted/?view=findpost&p=2842274

 

And a slightly expanded version (4m*0.4m including fiddle yard): http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60091-00-minories-track-plan-wanted/?view=findpost&p=2859645

 

Any coastal location is a good excuse for military vehicle offloading and you could really go for it and model a dockside.

 

Phil

I have thought about that.  I have has issues finding any 1:76 ships anywhere.  I had originally thought of that and having a small patrol boat docked.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

For what you want - GWR, terminus, Castles, etc Kingswear is hard to beat.  

 

 

 

Of course it will have to be compressed, and the curve radius tightened; but even so I think that all the main features are do-able with Peco track and rtr stock.  If I were to do it, the retaining wall would be the sole non-railway scenery on it!

Edited September 21, 2017 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[Harlequin]

Minehead offloaded tanks as the area was used as a fairly extensive tank training area on the coast.  That is the reason I originally gravitated towards that plan...

I have thought about that.  I have has issues finding any 1:76 ships anywhere.  I had originally thought of that and having a small patrol boat docked.

 

A Google search finds this 1:72 model of a wartime corvette: http://www.model-dockyard.com/acatalog/info_RV5112.html

 

Only 5% out of scale and at 850mm long and painted up with camouflage stripes it would make a very impressive statement alongside your docks (possibly too much?).

 

Phil

[Joseph_Pestell]

My father served on one of those. I had not realised how small they were. Can't have been much fun in the Northern Atlantic.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

The Model Dockyard picture is of an MTB, not a Flower Class Corvette... 

 

 

is a Corvette

Edited September 21, 2017 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[Seanem44]

A Google search finds this 1:72 model of a wartime corvette: http://www.model-dockyard.com/acatalog/info_RV5112.html

 

Only 5% out of scale and at 850mm long and painted up with camouflage stripes it would make a very impressive statement alongside your docks (possibly too much?).

 

Phil

That would be AWESOME.  So I guess 1:72 is the workaround....  I guess no one would really notice.  Another good option I've seen are the Arifix Whaleback RAF rescue boats.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Seanem44

[locomad]

But one can't see the military offloading tanks at a city centre location.

 

I can't think of any specifically military branches on the GW but there is not reason why there could not have been. So you might like to take a look at Amesbury as a prototype and convert it to GW.

 

This is what I was led to believe until people who were alive in the last war started telling us that a large town on north wales coast ex LNWR, unloaded tanks and other armour vechiles at the passenger station, then drove them on tracks down the high street to a large engineering works to be adapted for D-day, then tested them on the beach

 

Course no photos exist cause you were not allowed to take them, plus film was in very short supply, also you weren't meant to talk about it.

 

Hence why this period of history is interesting but differcult to research, also people after VE & VJ day just wanted to forget about the war and return to some kind of normality.

 

Only reason I found out was just happened in late 70's ask why was the high street road surface made out of concrete?

[The Johnster]

Kingswear was heavily involved in the D-Day build up, though perhaps more orientated to American activity than British.  But there is plenty of opportunity for military traffic.  Minehead as well, and additionally there were POW camps in the vicinity which generated an amount of special rail traffic.

 

For inspiration, perhaps an amalgam of Kinsgwear and St Ives, both featuring right hand curves towards the stops and a site between a hillside and water.

[Nearholmer]

I know nothing about the GWR, but I've always thought that Penzance packed a lot of operation into a tight space, and I think it only had two platforms until BR days. The FY could cover for the carriage sidings, as well as "the rest of the world", so loadsof ecs moves.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

Given the size of the 2mm scale exhibition layout of Kingswear ...

 

I second Penzance and St Ives, both good choices.   

 

If wanting military and naval materiel with GW, somewhere around Plymouth/Devonport?

[Seanem44]

I'm starting to think that a cross between St. Ives and Kingswear might be a good approach.  I can tighten it up as much as I need to.  This won't be an exhibition layout, so it is purely for my enjoyment.  Nor do I think there is much interest here in the states for a GWR layout.

 

When I told my wife I was going to build a GWR layout, she and her family for Christmas bought me American West items.  Bless there hearts, they just didn't understand.

[The Johnster]

Kingswear to scale would be huge, Penzance even bigger, and even St Ives had a platform that could take a 10 coach train and sent a complete train to Paddington every summer Saturday.  A massive amount of compression and freestyle adaptation is needed to get the essentials of any of those stations into the space you have.   But the big attraction of Kingswear and St Ives, both of which have been modelled many times in various forms, is the curved layout that allows the corner to be used for goods or loco facilities.

 

Might be worth you looking at Milford Haven in South Wales as well.  In this case the station has a continuation onto the quaysides and to an oil refinery which was worked with it's own locos.

[DCB]

I'm pretty sure Penzance was extended in the 1930s losing middle sidings and gaining a 3rd platform in the existing trainshed making 4.

Many GWR stations were extended in the 1930s though Plymouth North Road was not finished until the 50s due to WW2.

Plymouth Millbay was a good mid size terminus where several long distance trains or parts thereof terminated and started in the 1930s as well as branch and local Auto trains with 4 coaches and a 64XX popping in and out en route from Saltash to Marsh Mills(?). It closed to become a goods station when other facilities were bombed in WW2.

I find 7 coaches make a decent believable express train.  My winter 1930 GWR train formations book has plenty of 7 coach expresses terminating at places like Millbay and even 5 coach express formations to places like Weymouth.

There is no reason for trains to be the same length as platforms, 12 coach Pines Expresses departed from 8 coach long platforms at Bournemouth West in pre EU health and safety laws, equally 2 coach trains departed from 10 plus coach long platforms at St Ives.

WW2 is not a great era to model in RTR, plenty of Bulldogs and Dukes with outside frames, and lots of non standard pannier tanks not available RTR  Unlined Green shirtbutton or GWR Black liveries. At least there is a decent Dean Goods from Oxford now.  No Counties or Modified Halls until the very end of the war, no 7XXX Castles,  Think I would go fictionalised  with 8 ft long main platforms and an extensive goods yard and double track approach.

Edited September 23, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[PatB]

CJ Freezer (I know, I know ) drew a number of L-shaped terminus to FY designs with a largish terminus as the main station and a much smaller one in front of the fiddle yard. In at least one case, the fiddle yard station was replaced by a dockside area. Whilst I wouldn't necessarily recommend slavishly following a Freezer plan, you could get the best of both worlds by employing the idea. A fairly impressive urban(ish) terminus, with a branch running off to a dock or depot which would justify the military traffic. Not only do you get a full set of facilities, but you also get the extra operating interest of working branch traffic into your timetable/sequence.

[Seanem44]

CJ Freezer (I know, I know ) drew a number of L-shaped terminus to FY designs with a largish terminus as the main station and a much smaller one in front of the fiddle yard. In at least one case, the fiddle yard station was replaced by a dockside area. Whilst I wouldn't necessarily recommend slavishly following a Freezer plan, you could get the best of both worlds by employing the idea. A fairly impressive urban(ish) terminus, with a branch running off to a dock or depot which would justify the military traffic. Not only do you get a full set of facilities, but you also get the extra operating interest of working branch traffic into your timetable/sequence.

Yeah,  I have been going through all my old layout design issues of magazines and his own books.  Freezer was a genius in layout design, no doubt.

 

I think ultimately my final design will be tempered between something I can finish (simplicity) and something I can enjoy.  It will not be a carbon copy of any one location, and it likely won't be 100% protypical.

 

Someone has mentioned GWR wartime being hard with RTR stock.

 

I purchased the new Hattons 14xx in wartime black.  Also the same for a SR S15 which is on loan to the GWR (this, I have read did happen).  My other GWR stock has the G W R lettering, which is accurate for '42 and onward, though I am sure they were turned out in black as opposed to the green mine are in.  No biggie.  My Castle has the Crest which would be accurate.  So for the most part, as accurate as can be without constraining myself.

 

I plan on blacking out the windows of my Hornby Autocoach.  I'd prefer not to do this to my Hornby Colletts.  Just because of their cost and my not wanting to experiment.

 

As I come up with track ideas, I will post them for critique and maybe someday soon Ill have a plan I can move forward on.

[Seanem44]

This is a somewhat quick mock-up.  Not to scale, but just an Idea I have had floating around.

 

Thoughts?  Feel free to tweak it.  I am still a novice on British track layout and procedures, so I might have some headshunt and point placements wrong or reversed.

[Harlequin]

If your fiddle yard is against a wall then it's probably not a good idea to have scenic areas in front of it because you need regular access to the fiddle yard.

 

What are the dimensions of your baseboard and fiddle yard? Is the fiddle yard at right angles to the baseboard?

 

Phil

[Seanem44]

If your fiddle yard is against a wall then it's probably not a good idea to have scenic areas in front of it because you need regular access to the fiddle yard.

 

What are the dimensions of your baseboard and fiddle yard? Is the fiddle yard at right angles to the baseboard?

 

Phil

Good point.  The fiddle yard will be about 8-10"x2 so yeah, a scenic area is likely not a good idea.  It is at a right angle, so the main line will be curving in that direction at some point.  That was just a thought.  I can remove that spur from the goods yard.

[Harlequin]

I think your basic topology looks OK but others here are far more expert than me. However whether it's workable or not depends on the lengths of the various sidings, headshunts and the fiddle yard. You need to draw it to scale.

 

So is this right?: The baseboard will be 14ft by up to 3ft and the fiddle yard 2ft by 8-10in joined at right angles to the right hand end of the baseboard.

 

If the fiddle yard is only 2ft long it may have to steal some baseboard space.

 

Phil