Deltics on the Western Region

[TravisM]

I know this thread will stir up a hornets nest, but here goes.  I heard a interesting story last night that when the prototype Deltic arrived, serious consideration was given to trialling it on the Western Region after the somewhat failings of the "Kerosene" castles.  This was ruled out by WR management as they had already decided to go down the hydraulic route and were already in negotiations with Deutsche Bahn and North British to produce the D600 Warships and were convinced by DB that their and diesel-hydraulic technology was to a certain degree "proven".

 

When the prototype Delic started showing promise on both the LMR and ER, the WR were somewhat dismayed by the lacklustre performance and problems of the NBL D600's.  Also when the production Deltic's showed up and the mileages that they were able to put in between failures, WR management started putting their heads in their hands and the term "damn" started to be banded about.  It wasn't until the Westerns finally arrived in strength that the WR felt they had a loco that could haul heavy loaded trains over long distances, at high speed.

 

When several Deltic's arrived on the WR in the mid 70's to do high speed tests, there was a certain discussion of that "we should have had these from new" as they were by then ETH and air brake fitted which the hydraulics, especially the Warships weren't and couldn't and Westerns at best, could only be air braked.  In WR managements eyes of the 70's, Deltic's would have been the better bet rather than building the type 4 hydraulics and certainly better than the Class 50's which were by then, replacing the Westerns.

 

Both the Deltic's and hydraulics were both not without fault and that's well documented, but whether the Deltic's could manage the Devon banks, Cornish hills, heavy stone trains as well the hydraulics is a matter for for another discussion, but what the Deltic's probably could have attained over Brunel's "table top railway" was high speed running before the advent of the HST's.

 

I don't know if what truth in the story (If any) but as "Urban Myth's go", it's a interesting one.

 

Julian Sprott

[D854_Tiger]

I believe the problem with the Deltics is that they were expensive to maintain, thanks to all those cylinders two-stroking, which meant they could only really be justified on the longer distance premium business services, where the high first class fare take justified their existence and their extra power could make a serious difference on journey times.

 

It's well worth remembering that only 22 were ever built, meaning the lion's share of ECML services were operated by other types, notably the class 47.

 

This was the main reason why the Deltics were withdrawn early. Once electrification arrived, they could find work elsewhere, such as Trans Peninne, but the revenue take on that route couldn't justify the Deltic's higher operating cost.

 

The equivalent premium business routes on the GW would have been Bristol and Cardiff but would a Deltic have been that much quicker on a much shorter route  and, in any case, they had the Blue Pullman coming for their key business markets.

[Pete the Elaner]

Deltics didn't get ousted by Electrification. There was a 5-6 year gap between the 2. HST's saw off the Deltics.

Wasn't Deltic's track damage at 100mph the benchmark for the APT & HST at higher speeds?

 

Blue Pullman was a failure because it was designed for 100mph running but could not achieve this in service.

[TravisM]

Deltics didn't get ousted by Electrification. There was a 5-6 year gap between the 2. HST's saw off the Deltics.

Wasn't Deltic's track damage at 100mph the benchmark for the APT & HST at higher speeds?

 

Blue Pullman was a failure because it was designed for 100mph running but could not achieve this in service.

 

The Blue Pullman's were intended for 90-100 MPH running between London and Bristol/Swansea but they rode badly and therefore once the A/C Mk II's arrived, they were quickly disposed of.  The original point of the post was that when the prototype Deltic arrived, the Western Region considered trying it but declined because they were going down the diesel-hydraulic route.

 

Had it been tried, would the Western Region dispensed with the diesel-hydraulic idea and when the production Deltic's were ordered, could there been more than 22 ordered?

 

Julian Sprott

[Phil Bullock]

Don't forget that a driver for hydraulicification on the WR was a lack of significant experience with electrical equipment - traction motors etc - whereas Er and lmr both had significant experience.

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[The Johnster]

Sounds very much like an urban myth to me.  You can hardly compare an 1,800hp D600 to a 3,300hp Deltic, but experience on the LM had already shown that these were prima donna top link locos which were beyond BR's ability to maintain satisfactorily; EE had a team at Doncaster looking after the ECML ones for some time.  The WR were looking for a replacement for Kings and Castles, and were horrified at the power/weight ration of the only reliable locos with anything approaching enough hp, the Southern diesel electrics and and the EE derivates used on the ER and LMR.  BR improved on these with the Sulzer engined 'Peaks', but they were still the weight of nearly 5 coaches, a consideration on the South Devon banks (and some of the South Wales ones).

 

Where the WR's hydraulic program went wrong was not in not ordering Deltics in 1956, but in ordering 2.000hp locos in the belief that they were powerful enough; they weren't, and the drivers thrashed them to death to try to maintain the steam timetables never mind the improvements that the region wanted to convince it's passengers were the result of dieselisation.  A better plan might have been to go for something like a Western first off; a similar loco had proved itself in German use.  By '62/3, the timetable was in jeopardy with failed Warships bay blocking at Swindon and new Westerns delayed while steam locos were not being maintained, and the final straw was the collapse of Beyer Peacock and the consequent unavailability of the next 100 Hymeks.  Fortunately EE and Brush had enough capacity to bail the region out with type 3s and 2.750hp type 4s by '64.

 

The Warships, production anyway, eventually proved their worth in 4.400hp multiple on the Berks and Hants; slower than a Deltic but I doubt a Deltic could have done that work without leaving pistons and bits all over the West of England...

[Nearholmer]

Could well be a mixture of truth and legend, in that I can well imagine a railwayman, even perhaps a senior railwayman, seeing what a Deltic could do on the WR, and saying "I wish we'd had them". But that could be said in admiration, without deep thought, either seriously or lightheartedly.

 

A bit like me looking at an Aston Martin, while in the middle of a tedious all-day drive, and wishing I'd bought one when last we renewed the family car.

 

The other thought is that the WR probably did "consider" them c1960, in the sense of running a few calculations of train timings, possible affect on revenue (not much, while there wasn't a motorway or a Severn Bridge to compete with), possible maintenance costs, whether they could manage with fewer locos crews and coaches by going faster etc. But a few run of the mill option-calculations aren't the same as cracking open the chequebook.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Dunsignalling]

Sounds very much like an urban myth to me.  You can hardly compare an 1,800hp D600 to a 3,300hp Deltic, but experience on the LM had already shown that these were prima donna top link locos which were beyond BR's ability to maintain satisfactorily; EE had a team at Doncaster looking after the ECML ones for some time.  The WR were looking for a replacement for Kings and Castles, and were horrified at the power/weight ration of the only reliable locos with anything approaching enough hp, the Southern diesel electrics and and the EE derivates used on the ER and LMR.  BR improved on these with the Sulzer engined 'Peaks', but they were still the weight of nearly 5 coaches, a consideration on the South Devon banks (and some of the South Wales ones).

 

Where the WR's hydraulic program went wrong was not in not ordering Deltics in 1956, but in ordering 2.000hp locos in the belief that they were powerful enough; they weren't, and the drivers thrashed them to death to try to maintain the steam timetables never mind the improvements that the region wanted to convince it's passengers were the result of dieselisation.  A better plan might have been to go for something like a Western first off; a similar loco had proved itself in German use.  By '62/3, the timetable was in jeopardy with failed Warships bay blocking at Swindon and new Westerns delayed while steam locos were not being maintained, and the final straw was the collapse of Beyer Peacock and the consequent unavailability of the next 100 Hymeks.  Fortunately EE and Brush had enough capacity to bail the region out with type 3s and 2.750hp type 4s by '64.

 

The Warships, production anyway, eventually proved their worth in 4.400hp multiple on the Berks and Hants; slower than a Deltic but I doubt a Deltic could have done that work without leaving pistons and bits all over the West of England...

I think the crux of the matter is that BR were pushing (or being pushed) to discard steam before they had anything decent to replace it.

 

Deltics were temperamental and VERY expensive to run, Warships were unreliable (those made by NBL doubly so), the Westerns were initially rubbish and it took the best part of 2 years to cure them, the 47s were no better and regularly "lost" traction motors on the Devon banks when initially introduced to them. All the Type 2s were gutless (and the NBL ones were fragile as well) unless used in pairs or confined to light trains, ditto the EE Type 1 and the only sensible thing to say about the rest of that ilk was "why". 

 

I agree that the only diesels of that era that worked anything like properly "out of the box" were the Type 3s of what later became Classes 33, 35 and 37.

 

The 50s came along after the "Golden Age" of under-developed designs being built in stupid numbers but they'd have probably been fine if they'd just copied DP2 and not messed about with the interior layout to get everything into a flat-ended box.

 

John

Edited September 22, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[JohnR]

Of course, in 1964 Gerry Fiennes tried to borrow a Deltic for a trial run to Plymouth. The "Rude Mechanicals" said no, however, so he ran it with a double headed EE Type 3 - 2 x 1,750hp, special clearance to go to 100mph. He had long been an advocate of over 3000hp under the bonnet, to get that 75mph start to stop timing - mostly against the prevailing wisdom within BR at the time. 

 

Result was 3 hours to Exeter, and 4 to Plymouth. Came back via Bristol in almost exactly the same time as via Westbury. 

 

I really dont think there was any other serious attempt to get a Deltic to the WR.

 

Edit: Just checked my copy of "Fiennes on Rails" - this happened on 16 June 1965 with the XP64 set. Timings were 2 1/2 hours to Exeter and 3 1/2 to Plymouth. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by JohnR

[Dunsignalling]

Of course, in 1964 Gerry Fiennes tried to borrow a Deltic for a trial run to Plymouth. The "Rude Mechanicals" said no, however, so he ran it with a double headed EE Type 3 - 2 x 1,750hp, special clearance to go to 100mph. He had long been an advocate of over 3000hp under the bonnet, to get that 75mph start to stop timing - mostly against the prevailing wisdom within BR at the time. 

 

Result was 3 hours to Exeter, and 4 to Plymouth. Came back via Bristol in almost exactly the same time as via Westbury. 

 

I really dont think there was any other serious attempt to get a Deltic to the WR.

I never really understood why he didn't try the same thing with a brace of Hymeks, saving 68 tons (the equivalent of two coaches) for a reduction in power of just 100 bhp.

 

John

[JohnR]

I never really understood why he didn't try the same thing with a brace of Hymeks, saving 68 tons (the equivalent of two coaches) for a reduction in power of just 100 bhp.

 

John

I'm assuming the braking ability was the deciding factor - especially when braking from 100 mph. 

[The Johnster]

Of course, in 1964 Gerry Fiennes tried to borrow a Deltic for a trial run to Plymouth. The "Rude Mechanicals" said no, however, so he ran it with a double headed EE Type 3 - 2 x 1,750hp, special clearance to go to 100mph. He had long been an advocate of over 3000hp under the bonnet, to get that 75mph start to stop timing - mostly against the prevailing wisdom within BR at the time. 

 

Result was 3 hours to Exeter, and 4 to Plymouth. Came back via Bristol in almost exactly the same time as via Westbury. 

 

I really dont think there was any other serious attempt to get a Deltic to the WR.

 

Edit: Just checked my copy of "Fiennes on Rails" - this happened on 16 June 1965 with the XP64 set. Timings were 2 1/2 hours to Exeter and 3 1/2 to Plymouth. 

 

 

The bogies were replaced with Deltic ones with lower gear ratios for this experiment, the work done at Doncaster AFAIK, and swapped back later.  This gearing was shared with DP2 and, later, the 50s.

[The Johnster]

I'm assuming the braking ability was the deciding factor - especially when braking from 100 mph. 

 

EE type 3s were rated to run at 105mph, as opposed to the Hymeks' 90.

[Dunsignalling]

EE type 3s were rated to run at 105mph, as opposed to the Hymeks' 90.

Was that all EE Type 3s or just the pair fettled for this particular trial?

 

In our neck of the woods, we mainly saw them on freight workings. 

 

John

[TravisM]

Of course, in 1964 Gerry Fiennes tried to borrow a Deltic for a trial run to Plymouth. The "Rude Mechanicals" said no, however, so he ran it with a double headed EE Type 3 - 2 x 1,750hp, special clearance to go to 100mph. He had long been an advocate of over 3000hp under the bonnet, to get that 75mph start to stop timing - mostly against the prevailing wisdom within BR at the time. 

 

Result was 3 hours to Exeter, and 4 to Plymouth. Came back via Bristol in almost exactly the same time as via Westbury. 

 

I really dont think there was any other serious attempt to get a Deltic to the WR.

 

Edit: Just checked my copy of "Fiennes on Rails" - this happened on 16 June 1965 with the XP64 set. Timings were 2 1/2 hours to Exeter and 3 1/2 to Plymouth. 

 

I think this is probably where the story started, probably asked for a Deltic and ended up with a pair of Class 37's instead.  It's a good story though but why spoil it elements of truths     

 

Julian Sprott

Edited September 22, 2017 by jools1959

[The Johnster]

Was that all EE Type 3s or just the pair fettled for this particular trial?

 

In our neck of the woods, we mainly saw them on freight workings. 

 

John

 

IIRC they were rated for 100mph.  They were certainly regarded as freight locos in South Wales for many years, but the Eastern, North Eastern, and Scottish Regions used them very successfully for many years on secondary passenger services, not so secondary on the Great Eastern section and I'm fairly sure I've seen photo of one on the 'Sunday Harrogate Pullman'.  This was well established before 1963 when the WR had it's first allocations, which were to replace an order of lower geared Hymeks from Beyer Peacock.  IIRC, WR allocated this Hymek order, D7101 to D7200, to 56xx replacement and a asked for lower gearing more suitable for South Wales coal work after the company had shelled out for the materials; this was enough to tip them into bankruptcy, and the D71xx never materialised.

 

Thus the South Wales EE type 3s were regarded on the WR as freight locos to replace the 56xx 0-6-2Ts, and did that work with considerable success for many years.  This held true even in the following decade when repeated attempts to run the Marches line services with ever diminishing loads using the pathetic BR/Sulzer type 2s, class 25, met with continued failure to time the trains; nobody though of using 37s.  In the ultimate event, the 37s were more suited to modern needs as the Hymeks would not have had room on board to retrofit air brake equipment or ETH.  They proved well suited to Valleys mineral work, with plenty of tractive effort and not bad braking, tough, reliable locos whose only drawback was a tendency to be a little delicate in the matter of overload tripouts.  I'd have to say that, unless anyone knows better which is by no means unlikely, on the face of it a Co-Co of 105 tons is a better bet as a mineral hauler than a B-B of 75 tons, even though the latter had a good record as a mixed traffic loco everywhere except South Wales where they were run to death to keep to King loadings and timings between Cardiff and Paddington for most of 1962 and 63.

 

The reason for swapping bogies on the trial locos with 105mph Deltic ones was not a matter of top rated speed, as there was little difference, but the final drive gear ratios of the Deltic bogies were different and more suited to prolonged high speed running.  It has been said that these trials were instrumental in the adoption of the HST on the WR just over a decade later; I have no idea if there is any substance to this idea!

[stovepipe]

Snip....

 

I don't know if what truth in the story (If any) but as "Urban Myth's go", it's a interesting one.

 

Julian Sprott

Sorry I'm lost, what story are you talking about?

[Nearholmer]

I'm now confused.

 

We're the 37s used on the demo run to Plymouth temporarily fitted with borrowed bogies to permit 100mph (seems like a serious lot work for one run) or were they simply given dispensation to run at that speed (seems much more likely)?

[Dunsignalling]

Sorry I'm lost, what story are you talking about?

The fictional bit of the OP

[The Johnster]

IIRC the bogies were swapped for spare Deltic ones at Doncaster where EE's maintenance team kept them.  It is not a massive job, simply lifting the loco from the bogies is done in sheds, can be done in an afternoon.  As I stated, the speed difference was insignificant, but the gearing of the Deltic bogies was considered more suitable for prolonged high speed running at the cost of acceleration.  I believe there was also a high speed run to Bristol; South Wales was not involved.   The locos were not specially cleaned up or anything and performed (very well by all accounts) in their normal 'heavily weathered' South Wales livery, and the WR's attitude to them as freight locos in the normal order of things was not changed.

 

The trains were also given dispensation to run at 100mph, of course, line speed on the WR being 90mph in those days.  The hydraulics were all rated for 90mph as the region required no more, and the 47s (in their early days) were barely capable of reaching that with a decent size train, though they were rated for 95mph.  The introduction of 100mph mk 2 stock and some easing of speed restrictions, along with limiting the loads of South Wales and Bristol trains to 10 mk2s, enabled some timetable reductions and the line speed went up to 100mph on the Bristol road, and east of Stoke Gifford on the Badminton cutoff, in I think 1967 or 8, then 125mph when the HSTs were introduced, but only for those trains!

 

The 1978 WR HST timetables were cut to timings that will be re-achieved by the new IEC Hitachis, but not exceeded; do not be fooled by Chris Grayling's attempts to persuade you that this is a timetable improvement, it is merely a restoration of what much maligned, old fashioned, inefficient, nationalised BR achieved 40 years ago.

 

These runs may well have had some bearing on the double heading of West of England trains with Warships a few years later, another very successful exercise, but of course the region was awash with diesels of tolerable reliability by then and Warships had infiltrated the LSWR's West Country main line as well.

 

Beggars the question of what Deltics, or Class 50s, might have done as freight haulers with the Class 37 bogies.  

[Nearholmer]

Overheated the axleboxes of all the wagons, and derailed a good few, because they were notoriously unstable at speed.

 

The point I'm making is that power provides speed, which is what we see nowadays with freight trains - I'm still easily impressed when I see a Class 66 (same installed power as a deltic , iirc) bowling a long and heavy train along at what would have been considered express passenger speed forty years ago. But that can only be done if the whole system, loco, wagons, track, braking distances etc is fit for it; the SR proved with the Hornbys that a mega powerful loco in an otherwise restricted system is a bit of a waste of money!

Edited September 23, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Fat Controller]

I thought three pairs of these locos were used in the trials.

As regards Deltics on freight; they probably had insufficient braking power (due to their relatively light weight) to cope with the unfitted/partially fitted freights of the day. They would probably have managed reasonably well on Freightliners or car-carrying trains, however.

[45125]

I thought three pairs of these locos were used in the trials.

As regards Deltics on freight; they probably had insufficient braking power (due to their relatively light weight) to cope with the unfitted/partially fitted freights of the day. They would probably have managed reasonably well on Freightliners or car-carrying trains, however.

 

Deltics did quite well on Freightliners..........

[RJS1977]

One Deltic did make it into revenue-earning service on the Western - in the late 90s Virgin Cross Country hired D9000 to haul Summer Saturday trains from Birmingham to Ramsgate and back. Although the outward working went down the WCML, the inward working went via Kensington Olympia, Oxford and Leamington Spa!

[russ p]

37s can manage 100mph easily without regearing .

They were also used in pairs to propel APT-P at over 100mph on the ECML as part of braking trials

The crew were in the rearmost cab as they released the APT and there was a risk that if the APT made an emergency brake application the 37s would run into it