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A new from old H0 layout in Busch HOf

busch narrow gauge feldbahn




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#1 bertiedog

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 23:30

It's not often you realise that you have a completed spare layout almost ready to go, and largely unused, but I had been considering buying some Busch H0f 6.5mm equipment, as they now do two Steam outline models as well as the diesels in the Feldbahn range.

 

The usual problems with Continental items is finding stockists of the system, but I realised that it does not really require all Busch parts and track to work, and there appears to be enough stockists to get the Steam loco by mail order.

 

The layout in question is an old HO test track in a spare room, fitted to the walls by brackets. It is full working order and features the large Kibri kit Castle they once made, and indeed may still do.

 

The existing HO tracks run through two tunnels right under the Castle, and used to form a complete loop around the room. The Castle is near unpainted, so will need a long painting session to bring it to decent condition. (Stock Photo). I may have to pressure wash it to clean the plastic!

 

ki39010.jpg

 

The two boards against the wall can be removed and a 7 to 8 foot long looped layout created, leaving the Kibri Castle in place, next to a river and waterfall. There are gradients built in, but the Busch locos with the magnets in action can easily tackle any slope.

 

bUSCH.jpg

Not to scale, outline only

 

The plan is to simply remove the HO track, and replace with the 6.5mm Z gauge track, forming a loop on the boards at each end, with two halts and a siding to an engine shed. The points will be homemade, perhaps on the Wrenn pattern, with closing frogs to provide a smoother run through them. I did see the Busch points in action and was not totally impressed by them,

 

The new points can be built on steel plates to allow the Busch traction magnets to work, and the track laid on steel strips cut up on my metal cutting bandsaw.

 

The layout will need upgrading to far more modern scenery, the pine trees are twisted wire brush types bought in bulk. They may respond to a new coating of static flock or the like, to improve them. They will only be used in the background anyway, to be in front of a new painted background of mountain views.

 

The plan is to feature the landscape as a vineyard and farm, with the line running along beside the road access to the Castle, headquarters of the Vineyard.

 

Peco do the Z gauge track required in 24 inch lengths, and the sleepers can be cut out to match the spacing used by Busch on their own track. The Peco Z gauge track is a lot cheaper than the original Busch track.

 

Rolling stock is no problem, a lot of 009 types will work, with the wheels re-gauged to 6.5mm

 

I have a stored away fleet of 009 stock from the now abandoned L&B project and even the coaches could be used, or the 4 wheelers used that Peco make. There are plenty of inexpensive 009 hoppers and wagons around as well. The cancelled Heljan L& B locos cover the costs with some to spare and it can be running in just a few weeks. The budget could cover a diesel as well as the Steam Engine.

 

There are some stored away HO figures that can be used, and I can get more unpainted ones cheap from Hong Kong via Ebay.....They also do nice fence sections as well, which could be used around the Castle approaches.

 

I have a few HO vehicles as well, Roco and others, and an old Pola kit or two for small workshop and an engine shed.

 

So a long session in the morning unscrewing the layout from the wall, and moving it to a new home in the front upper room, with the OO light railway layout as well.

 

A new name will be needed for the Castle, suitably Germanic with alcoholic connections to go with the Vineyard.

 

Stephen


Edited by bertiedog, 05 October 2017 - 14:49 .


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#2 Oldddudders

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 06:28

Schlossed?
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#3 velotrain

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 06:58

A very long time ago I designed a small HOn30 layout set on an island, where the line wound up a small mountain from the port to the Busch castle on top.  As I recall, the main reason I put it on an island was to incorporate the excellent small rail ferry from Artitec - which would also bring all the tourists over from the mainland.

 

As far as sources for Busch, I always used Modellbahnshop-Lippe, as they provide good English language support and somewhat discounted prices.  You likely have customs charges which could impact things.  I wasn't aware of the Busch steam engines and went to look for them, in the process discovering that there is now an excavator - if you wish to have a clay or gravel pit.  The former would tie in nicely with their brick works.  A Spanish fellow had been marketing a powered version in HO and O, but his video showed it as too jerky for my tastes.

 

https://www.modellba...in_produkt.html

 

I believe the Busch magnetic adhesion is so strong that you could literally build a vertical layout on a wall - the ultimate solution for lack of space ;-)  I also saw a photo on a German site showing that at least one of the engines could negotiate something like a 2" radius curve.  I briefly toyed with the idea of a labyrinth railway . . .   I've also thought of having a small loop run around the brim of a hat.

 

I should think the main issue with the Z-gauge track is that the ties would look too short.  However, feldbahn track is often half-buried in the ground anyway, so you could camouflage this by pressing the ties into your "roadbed".


Edited by velotrain, 26 September 2017 - 07:05 .


#4 bertiedog

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 08:47

The new steam loco from Busch Feldbahn......

 

259136_e.jpg

 

Somewhat simplified motion and valve gear, but at the size acceptable. The chassis are all 3 volt mechanisms, the Busch controllers are simple on/off/direction battery boxes, but the locos can be controlled on any suitable 0 to 3volt voltage source. A simple variable voltage regulator would do very nicely.

 

Measuring up the existing boards there is nearly twelve feet of board, but this would be a bit un-wealdly in length so it will be shortened to about 9 feet. Part of the scenery runs over a joint, so must be carefully sawn through to release the boards.

 

The Castle removes in one go, leaving balsa lined tunnels underneath, which could take two parallel tracks in the space for one H0 track. The tunnels need new portals anyway, along with scenery to match around the approaches.

 

I had wondered about the Castle Vineyard being run by a group of Nuns,...... Schloss Blaues Nonnenkloster........a rather low alcohol religious group.....

 

I'll ring around the shops to find one with stock of the Steam loco later today. They appear to do two versions, one black, and one green, with different chimney stack or spark arrestor. Other than that a diesel will do for the time being to test the track out.

 

The Peco track is narrower in sleepers but once half are removed it should look fine as narrow gauge track, again have to find a stockist as locally nobody stocks the Z gauge track, so mail order I think

 

Also need some nickel silver rail section. to approximate the height of the track, as the Z gauge uses a strange rail section to get the rail to grip the base.  Flatbottom in about code 60 or so would do on PC sleepers, with a fully pivoting blade point to close the frogs completely, removing in one go any gauge or back to back issues with wheel standards etc,and no frog drop.

 

Stephen.


Edited by bertiedog, 26 September 2017 - 08:51 .

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#5 bertiedog

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 08:55

"As far as sources for Busch, I always used Modellbahnshop-Lippe, as they provide good English language support and somewhat discounted prices.  You likely have customs charges which could impact things.  I wasn't aware of the Busch steam engines and went to look for them, in the process discovering that there is now an excavator - if you wish to have a clay or gravel pit.  The former would tie in nicely with their brick works.  A Spanish fellow had been marketing a powered version in HO and O, but his video showed it as too jerky for my tastes."

 

https://www.modellba...in_produkt.html

 

 

 

No custom charges at present, still in the EU at the moment!

 

Stephen.


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#6 bertiedog

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 09:38

It appears that the Peco IL-1 Code 60 Flat Bottom Rail, nickel silver rail section will match the Z gauge track Peco do. Now to find a stockist!.. or more likely order it in by mail order.

Phew....... the H0 figures are going to cost a fortune on Ebay, dependent on the supplier all of £2 per 100 figures!...... Must find some Blue Nuns though....

 

Stephen



#7 bertiedog

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 13:23

May have a solution to the steel underlay, 19mm steel packing strapping is available on rolls, and could be cut into smaller sections to make the underlay for the track to be laid on.

Apart from that there seem few alternatives, apart from laying steel rod or wire under the track, which is more complex due to the thickness.

I can find no references to the Faller system item mentioned, but will have a further search. The strapping has a drawback, it is cheap for the quantity, but it is a 25Kg roll that most suppliers sell, Thinner strapping is not steel , but plastic these days.

If any more expense fro a substitute , the Busch original track may be viable if the layout size is reduced a bit.

 

Stephen



#8 bertiedog

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 14:13

Dropping the width from 19mm to 13mm, which would still fit under the track, the cost falls to about £25 for 350 metres!!!.....The strap is on a roll, and would need a wooden safety box made to store it and reel out lengths, as I have had experience before with this stuff and if the roll opens and uncoils it is pretty awkward and somewhat dangerous as well.

 

It is .5mm thick steel, and would have to be cut with a chop grinder or hand grinder into the lengths needed, about 4 inch for straights and gentle curves and about1.5 inch for tighter curves. The end cuts could be angled a bit to aid laying the curve.

 

Although off a roll, and therefore with a curve, it should be all right if passed through engineering rolls, or drilled and screwed down onto contact adhesive. After laying each section it could be sanded with a power belt sander on the top to remove any burrs etc., and treated with phosphoric acid to help rust proof it, followed by car undercoat, then have the track fitted to the top with glue and temporary screws holding it in place till dry.

 

As the steel may be a wee bit bumpy, perhaps the track could be laid with a silicon sealer as the glue to level out any bumps. The whole track could then be ballasted as usual, with the steel completely hidden underneath. The silicon would also help keeping damp from the ballasting glue causing rust problems.

 

It will need one of the locos to test the idea to make sure the magnet is attracted to the steel strip at all times.

 

Points are easier, a simple cut plate of ,5mm steel the size of the tiny points can be used.

 

The old layout is off the wall now, and cut into two sections ready to rebuild into a shorter form. The Castle took a bit of removing as it had been glued down to the layout boards. The river and waterfall survived the disassembly quite well, along with two bridges that take the tracks from the Castle tunnels to the rest of the layout. Some of the wooden battens need more screws fitted to strengthen the structure over all. I have removed the partial landscaping to fit some new surfaces, with polystyrene covered with plaster as the base material.

 

The baseboard is MDF, and quite strong and flat, and the underside can be used for the wiring and point controls. i will add some LED lighting strips at the front to cover the whole layout.

 

The time comes to decide on the length, and it may be better to reduce the size a bit, with the Castle on the left, over the loop of the lines, this would give an overall length of about 7.5 feet which matches a spare wall between two doors.

 

bUSCH mk2.jpg



#9 bertiedog

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 14:19

The Peco track with alternate sleepers removed or re-spaced, not to far from correct appearance.

 

Peco Z track.jpg

 

Feldbahn track Busch.jpg

 

 

Stephen.


Edited by bertiedog, 26 September 2017 - 14:30 .


#10 bertiedog

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 15:05

The magnetic strip may be solved, a maker, First for magnets.com. does "ferrous steel" self adhesive tape, designed to be used with neodymium magnets, it is a compound material, not solid steel, and it is available in 12.5mm and other widths, as a roll of self adhesive tape. As it is a compound material it will follow gentle curves as well, but would need cutting up for the tighter curves. Not too expensive, from about £2/3 per metre, with bulk discounts. It would need about 5/6 packs.

 

I will order a metre to test it works with a loco, soon to be placed on order. It does not rust unlike solid steel, and can take glues over it to hold the ballast in place.

 

Stephen



#11 bertiedog

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 17:47

I have found some similar magnetic tape with a steel content and tried the neodymium magnets above it and it works and pulls at over a half inch, so the loco magnet should have no trouble working with the strip.

 

The strip was part of a secondary double gazing unit, and appears to be the same as on the website, which quotes the use with glazing. I doubt it would be as powerful a pull as with solid steel, but it is better than nothing and the area is as wide as the track base, and smooth and easy to lay the track on. The self adhesive glue is quoted as a 3M product, so should work to retain everything in place, and I usually use double sided tape anyway to hold down ordinary track, and that works very well.

 

Most of the retention comes from the ballasting glue in the final brew anyway. The 12.5mm tape is just short of the full width of the Z gauge Peco track.

 

Pack of Peco Code 60 track section ordered today, for the points, the underlay can be the same tape in strips covering the point base area. Some Pc sleepers are now needed, thin section if possible, although if thicker the track can be packed up to the points level with care.

 

The points will have a solid blade structure, pivoted on a bearing, that simply closes the frog in the direction set. This renders working guide rails un-needed, with in effect the route is solid rail all through the point, without a frog, or gap at all. The power to the centre blades can be switched as usual to ensure continuity for  better running, but allow painting of the point parts to weather the appearance. The points can be quite small, at about 6 inches long overall, and can be motorised by solenoids, or any other point motor, or operate manually.

 

The Castle is being cleaned up in the shower to remove about 25 years of grime and dust, then a overhaul and fitting of windows glazing and other details, before a major paint job to bring the Kibri Castle up to a modern standard of detailing and weathering.

Stephen.



#12 bertiedog

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 07:05

After a lot of thought, a change of plan, or at least a return to the original size of the H0 layout of a full 12 feet by 16 inches, as the boards are complete and working order at the full length. As the H0f locos can go around minimum curves, the 16 inches is deep enough for a full loop at each end with space to spare.

 

An addition with be a run of 9mm track along the same route, at a different level, and again can be looped within the 16 inch depth.

The left hand end remains the Vineyard area, then the Castle and river , and on the right hand end a small village and sidings for transshipping to road or light railway.

 

The 9mm sections will be on the level of the boards, with most of the H0f running on raised sections with gradients that the Busch locos can handle easily.

Both lines can share the loco sheds near the village buildings, only one or two, with a small warehouse, maybe suitable Faller or other kits to save scratchbuilding them.

 

The boards have been inspected whilst off the wall, and extra screws added to secure the edge battens are really well fitted. The layout is only secured to the wall as a long shelf on wooden brackets, but I am adding some front legs for security. The shelf runs at a height of 4foot 6inch to clear the top of a chest of drawers unit, that can act as storage and make a base on its top for the controllers and switch gear for points etc.

 

All the old track in HO has been removed, and new track bases will be fitted made from ply, foam and balsa for both the gauges.

 

One of the bridges at the crossing of the river can have a dual track section with the 6.5 mm and 9 mm combined over the bridge to add extra interest.

 

The H09 trains can feature moving timber to the village, the H0f will be wine out and supplies to the vineyard inwards.

 

The general appearance will be toned down and weathered, not the brighter appearance favoured in German model rail layouts, which do veer towards a more gimmicky toy like appearance at times.

 

The Kibri Castle is a bit like that in effect, but can be toned down to a more scale appearance. Most of the required bits and pieces I already have in store, but it may need a couple of kits for buildings.

 

No particular date or period, just post war, with steam still in use on the lines, and the Castle vineyard hosting visitors, allowing coaches on the road, but with some horse drawn vehicles around. It could be in the old West Germany, in a mountainous area.



#13 bertiedog

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 09:46

Revised plan for line at full 12 feet long.......

castle .jpg

 

The H0f is raised above the 9mm, and both ends are under scenery. The Blue Nuns come as extras......

 

Stephen.


Edited by bertiedog, 27 September 2017 - 10:11 .


#14 bertiedog

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 10:38

Approx levels, the 9mm on the boards, the H0f on raised sections or upper surface of the scenery, very simplified to work out tunnel entrances etc. I will get some thick blue foam for the end sections

levels.jpg



#15 bertiedog

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 11:45

A few shots of German Feldbahn in Vineyards, mainly in the Rhine Valley. I expect a better class of vintage wine than Blue Nun!

castle and vineyard rm.JPG castle and vineyards view tower rm.jpg HS-314.jpg serrig feldbahn rm.jpg serrig rm.jpg serrig weinberge rm a.jpg serrig1.jpg serrig3.jpg Weinberge rm.jpg

 

Stephen


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#16 Nile

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 20:28

Another option for putting steel under the track is DCC Concepts Power Base

 

http://www.hattons.c...tockDetail.aspx


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#17 PatB

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 03:32

Sounds like you might have solved the matter of steel strip but, if not, check the skips around building sites. Packs of bricks and pavers are (or were, back when I was landscaping 25 years ago) held together with the steel strapping so there's always plenty to be got rid of.



#18 velotrain

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 03:48

The strapping would work well for absolutely straight segments, but would be a real bear to shape for anything else.

 

Unless - you had some means of chopping it up into very small segments, along the lines of Power Base - but even shorter for the curves.

 

However, I should think that the properties which make it suitable for strapping would render it difficult to work with for other applications, and rather difficult to cut.  YMMV



#19 PatB

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 05:25

The strapping would work well for absolutely straight segments, but would be a real bear to shape for anything else.

 

Unless - you had some means of chopping it up into very small segments, along the lines of Power Base - but even shorter for the curves.

 

However, I should think that the properties which make it suitable for strapping would render it difficult to work with for other applications, and rather difficult to cut.  YMMV

 

A decent pair of tinsnips will go through it like scissors through ribbon. It's only el-cheapo mild steel. Mind you, I agree that curves, especially tight curves, would require a lot of little bits.

 

Something like steel fence wire set into a slot routed into the baseboard surface would make curves easier but isn't really practical on a ready built layout, needing to be done on a bare, flat board really. I suppose, if the board were something reasonably soft, it might be possible to dig out a groove by hand with a narrow chisel but I'm getting blisters just thinking about that option.



#20 bertiedog

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 13:57

I really think the compound metal/rubber self adhesive tape is the best, it is not cheap, but the supplier gives big discounts for quantity. What it lacks on solid metal is made up by the 12.5mm width. I tried a neodymium magnet under a 9mm Kato tram chassis to see if it works, and it does!..... Climbs rack railway gradients easily, but not quite as spectacular as the Busch climbing walls, as the magnet is slimmer at 1mm thick, and not so powerful as Busch use. The tape I have is 9mm wide rather than 12mm that is done on the net shop for magnets..

 

 The layout is back in place on the wall, and starting to cut out foam etc., for the end areas that are raised. Have to work out a reasonable clearance for the locos and stock in the tunnels, appears about two inches would be generous, but I want some converted 009 items to run on it, so the tunnels must not be tight.

 

The Castle of the Blue Nuns, a low alcohol religious order of Schlossed Nuns, is being restored from today, and glazing and painting is under way. One building found for the Village , a Hotel with bar, now minus the bar, but the rest of the model is all right bar a windows frame less back wall, and two gables missing on the roof. The gables can simply be covered by new tiling plasticard sheet, and the back can be out of view!

 

A quick browse through the Faller kits list shows two things, the range and the prices, so a bit of scratchbuilding or S/Hand items to restore. The Kibri castle is still made, but now very pricey.

 

An engine shed is needed, and some buildings for the vineyard, which Faller do make......at a price!  Maybe a Town hall building for the small part of the village portrayed, and a couple of simpler houses in Rhineland styles.

 

The rest is to portray the vineyards and the usual scenic stuff around the lines. Still in two minds whether to add the 9mm or not, or reduce the 9mm to just a short end to end. Lots of static grass, vines, posts, fencing etc., to make.

 

Stephen


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#21 DIW

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 20:44


A quick browse through the Faller kits list shows two things, the range and the prices, so a bit of scratchbuilding or S/Hand items to restore. The Kibri castle is still made, but now very pricey.

 

 

Hi Stephen,

 

Here are a couple of possibilites to get the buildings a bit cheaper (eye-dampening, rather than eye-watering):

 

On Ebay, see what Grumpypet has on offer from time to time

 

Have a look at the online shop for Miniatur-Wunderland (they buy in such bulk for themselves that they can offer the spare kits at  reduced price, but are limited in quantity so as not to undermine the retail industry - perhaps this could now be called the 'Hornby Discount Effect'?).

 

Dave


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#22 wollastonblue

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 07:10

I may be preaching to the converted but try https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/ I used them for Faller and Vollmer kits, although the Euro exchange rate is poor it still works out cheaper than the Faller sellers in the UK.

 

No commercial connection, just a satisfied customer.


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#23 bertiedog

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 10:28

I used to get a lot of Faller, et al, for assembly for customers, nice quality, but expensive even in the 70's. The old issue with all the German or similar kits is the degree of pre colouring the parts temps people into leaving them in the bright finish, without toning down to a realistic level, and you get the bright German finish which only says it looks like toys.

 

If treated as a construction kit, and needing full painting, the difference is massive, especially in a group of building where all the trim colours match each other and any weathering matches the whole group together.

 

Despite the colours the kits still exhibit a degree of translucency that defeats a realistic appearance.

 

The other thing that does affect some of the models is the scale, they are not true 1/87, but most are nearer 1/100, with lots of adjustments to doorways etc., very cleverly done, but it means the footprint of the model is a bit small, which of course is the intention of the designer to offer something that will fit a normal layout.

 

But in a row of buildings at scale spacing it does lead to each looking somewhat small, making the view  bit odd overall.

With this layout thee should not be any problem, apart from 12x1.5 trying to look like the Rhine valley vineyards! The only group will be the " village", and that an be as little as three buildings, carefully sited to get max effect but not clutter the corner they are in.

It needs a Hotel building, a private house, and a small business building of some kind.

 

Some off the Vollmer buildings for towns may do as a hotel, with conversion of details, I have the private house already under restoration, make unknown, so looking for a small business or shop.

 

I have found a winery for the Vineyard again it will need alterations of the layout of the kit, mainly to allow the Feldbahn to run through the centre of the units.

 

Another vital item are the Blue Nuns for the Castle......have to trace some nuns figures, but not expensive pre painted ones!


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#24 bertiedog

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 10:56

Just discovered the Vollmer Winery is a discontinued model, but there is one on Ebay from the seller, previously mentioned by DIW, so purchased the item whilst it's there.

The main building is fine, the warehouse on the side is good, but will need a railway bay fitted with open sides and a tiled roof.

covered track.jpg

This gives an example.

vollmer winery.jpg

The kit from Vollmer, not bad at £14 +post.


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#25 wollastonblue

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 11:52

Have you seen:

 

https://www.noch.com...hler-66712.html

 

This looks spectacular. I look forward to seeing this progress.


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