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EM trackwork from Templot diagrams


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Morning guys,

Quiet night shift has set me thinking. On my new (first) EM gauge layout, I’m going to try handbuilding track and pointwork. The layout will represent part of the four track WCML in the early 1990s. Now at that time I think British Rail were using concrete sleepers for main lines, not sure about pointwork - can anyone advise?

 

I’ve got the basic templates designed in Templot, but how is the best way of replicating concrete sleepers? Is it copper clad spray painted after build, or is there another way? Appreciate any help/comments.

 

Richie

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I have just had a quick google of concrete turnout bearers and got these photos

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=concrete+turnout+bearers&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt37eIstHWAhVEbFAKHVCKBEYQ7AkIOA&biw=1366&bih=659

 

They seem to be tapered top to bottom, so I would think you could get away with using PCB strip and filing a taper ,before fitting and painting.

 

I have not seen any close too that have not been buried in ballast.

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Richie

 

Have a look on the C&L website in the EM section at ref EM Track Base - C&L (4TBEM) . 2 metres of track base for £12, but that does not include the rail, which you have to purchase and thread on yourself.

 

Pete

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I think that Peco still do these in their Individulay range. Much better result than you will get with painted copperclad.

 

That's for the track. Back at that date, I think that pointwork would have been all timber sleepering.

Edited by Joseph_Pestell
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Thanks guys.

 

I've had a look at the trackbase Pete - its difficult to tell from the photograph, but that looks like its trying to replicate wooden sleepers?  

 

Joseph - yes i did wonder if that was the case.  These few pics seem to suggest wooden sleepers, but i'm struggling to see any concrete at all, so im not sure that answers the question!

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/britishrail1980sand1990s/16223069763

https://www.flickr.com/photos/79665856@N08/31769885794

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tunnel_one/23842004719

 

Although this looks like concrete sleepers in the platform at Stafford in 1991

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stuarts-phots/5577389819

https://www.flickr.com/photos/86020500@N06/14403284904

 

Richie

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I've had a look at the trackbase Pete - its difficult to tell from the photograph, but that looks like its trying to replicate wooden sleepers?  

 

There is a wooden sleeper version that requires code 75 bullhead rail and concrete sleeper version that requires code 82 flat bottom rail.

 

I think this link should take you to the concrete sleeper product. http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=369

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There is a wooden sleeper version that requires code 75 bullhead rail and concrete sleeper version that requires code 82 flat bottom rail.

 

I think this link should take you to the concrete sleeper product. http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=369

 

Thanks for that, that helps.

 

Perhaps im just out of touch but £12 for 6.5 feet, i suspect is going to get expensive!  A very rough calculation the layout will have 330 feet of visible track, being a four track main line, which is around 51 packs of this, which is £600 before the rail is taken into account!  May need to think of another way, although I guess as I havent got chairs to buy, and it would be bought in sections, its probably not actually as bad as it sounds.  Having said that the EM flexi-track from C&L works out at £580 for the same quantity, including rail, so that probably has to be the preferable option out of the two.

 

The trackbase does not quiet answer the points query however - what is best way of replicating concrete sleepers for pointwork?

 

Rich

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Perhaps I'm just out of touch but £12 for 6.5 feet, i suspect is going to get expensive!  A very rough calculation the layout will have 330 feet of visible track, being a four track main line, which is around 51 packs of this, which is £600 before the rail is taken into account!  May need to think of another way, although I guess as I haven't got chairs to buy, and it would be bought in sections, its probably not actually as bad as it sounds.  Having said that the EM flexi-track from C&L works out at £580 for the same quantity, including rail, so that probably has to be the preferable option out of the two.

 

It's probably worth highlighting that C&L produce two different flexi-track ranges.  I think that their thin sleeper version is only available with a representation of timber sleepers.  This seems to be £6.60 per metre.  Their thick sleeper range was acquired from Exactoscale a few years ago and is available with concrete sleepers and flat bottom rail.  This seems to be £9.00 per yard.  If you need 110 yards then I think you'll be spending more than £580.  Six boxes of 20 yards at £162 per box comes to £972.  Five boxes of 20 yards and 10 individual lengths comes to £900.

 

See http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=346_361_363_365 

 

They also produce a thick sleeper timber version with bullhead rail at the same price (£9.00 per yard) but strangely the EM version seems to be listed under 00.  See http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=346_375_377_379.

 

Sorry I can't help with the turnouts.  However, I'd assume in your time period that the plain line would be flat bottom rail on concrete sleepers and the S&C would be flat bottom rail on timber timbers.

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Morning guys,

Quiet night shift has set me thinking. On my new (first) EM gauge layout, I’m going to try handbuilding track and pointwork. The layout will represent part of the four track WCML in the early 1990s. Now at that time I think British Rail were using concrete sleepers for main lines, not sure about pointwork - can anyone advise?

 

I’ve got the basic templates designed in Templot, but how is the best way of replicating concrete sleepers? Is it copper clad spray painted after build, or is there another way? Appreciate any help/comments.

 

Richie

Hi Richie

 

As advised by Echo please do check out Colin Craig's website. Colin has a vast knowledge of "modern track" and is extremely helpful when he is demoing at shows.

 

All the Network Rail drawings I have on S&C with concrete bearers are dated late 1990s on wards. In the 1980s photographs indicate point work on the WCML was on timbers. Most the mainline points appear to have Pandrol fixings some as John (Highfield) states have ST base plates, available from C&L. Sidings would be a mixture of bullhead track, and points and earlier flatbottom rail with one of the many types of fixings used pre-Pandrol clip.

 

Peco do Pandrol clips IL 112 and slide chairs IL 113. Colin Craig does a variety of base plates for flatbottom track. Colin doesn't do ST baseplates which were common on pre-Pandrol point work, he did suggest to me that I built points on copperclad and used the C&L ST clips cosmetically.  

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Colin Craig's site may help. He sells components, has lots of photos plus a 3-part article on modern track

 

http://colincraig4mm.co.uk/#/track/4532596088

 

Thanks for that - Colin's site is superb, i've sent him an email!

 

 

It's probably worth highlighting that C&L produce two different flexi-track ranges.  I think that their thin sleeper version is only available with a representation of timber sleepers.  This seems to be £6.60 per metre.  Their thick sleeper range was acquired from Exactoscale a few years ago and is available with concrete sleepers and flat bottom rail.  

 

They also produce a thick sleeper timber version with bullhead rail at the same price (£9.00 per yard) but strangely the EM version seems to be listed under 00.  See http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=346_375_377_379.

 

Sorry I can't help with the turnouts.  However, I'd assume in your time period that the plain line would be flat bottom rail on concrete sleepers and the S&C would be flat bottom rail on timber timbers.

 

Again, thanks for that, it really helps. I think i'm getting myself all mixed up somewhere along the line!  But thanks for the line of thought re plain line and S&C.

 

Richie

 

Use the Exactoscale turnout timbering packs ( no timber grain). Each pack will make between 2.5 & 3 turnouts. Use the C&L ST base plates with code 82 rail

 

Cheers John - thats a big help.  Do you suggest Code 82 rail or EMGS Code 83?

 

Rich

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Hi Richie

 

As advised by Echo please do check out Colin Craig's website. Colin has a vast knowledge of "modern track" and is extremely helpful when he is demoing at shows.

 

All the Network Rail drawings I have on S&C with concrete bearers are dated late 1990s on wards. In the 1980s photographs indicate point work on the WCML was on timbers. Most the mainline points appear to have Pandrol fixings some as John (Highfield) states have ST base plates, available from C&L. Sidings would be a mixture of bullhead track, and points and earlier flatbottom rail with one of the many types of fixings used pre-Pandrol clip.

 

Peco do Pandrol clips IL 112 and slide chairs IL 113. Colin Craig does a variety of base plates for flatbottom track. Colin doesn't do ST baseplates which were common on pre-Pandrol point work, he did suggest to me that I built points on copperclad and used the C&L ST clips cosmetically.  

 

Clive,

Thanks for the response - I started the previously reply, then went off to read and attempt to digest Colin's site, before coming back and finishing the reply, during which time your post had arrived!

 

Really appreciate you taking the time to add the response in, thats great, and has clarified a few things for me.  Sorry if im being a bit thick here, but what are ST baseplates?  I must admit, I do like Colin's pandrol fixings, they look very realistic, although with soldered trackwork, I cannot, at this point, see how they work?  Is the track just soldered together on PCB, then the pandrol fixings just glued on afterwards? The text on Colin's site suggest they sit around the base of the rail to tilt it inwards?

 

Rich

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Clive,

Thanks for the response - I started the previously reply, then went off to read and attempt to digest Colin's site, before coming back and finishing the reply, during which time your post had arrived!

 

Really appreciate you taking the time to add the response in, thats great, and has clarified a few things for me.  Sorry if im being a bit thick here, but what are ST baseplates?  I must admit, I do like Colin's pandrol fixings, they look very realistic, although with soldered trackwork, I cannot, at this point, see how they work?  Is the track just soldered together on PCB, then the pandrol fixings just glued on afterwards? The text on Colin's site suggest they sit around the base of the rail to tilt it inwards?

 

Rich

Hi Rich

 

An ST baseplate was a design of baseplate/trackfixing that was in use before Pandrol clips were introduced, see photos 6 and 7. http://www.mmrs.co.uk/technical-articles/modern-permanent-way/

 

C&L model ST baseplates. http://www.finescale.org.uk/image/cache/data/products/4sc101a-500x500.jpg

Part number 4SC101A for 250

Part number 4SC101B for 500

 

Most track has a slight inward inclination, along with the slight coning of the wheels helps keep the train central on the track. Colin has designed his fixings for plain track to include this tilt. C&L moulded chairs also have this feature. I said most track, the main exception to this is/was flatbottom point work, even in real life it was easier to make it vertical. Flatbottom points for your period would be vertical, Colin's templates are for vertical designs. Modelling wise soldering track vertical directly on to the copper clad and then adding cosmetic fixings makes flatbottom point work easier. In recent years there has been a return to inclined rails for points, along with concrete bearers.

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Thanks for that - Colin's site is superb, i've sent him an email!

 

 

 

 

Again, thanks for that, it really helps. I think i'm getting myself all mixed up somewhere along the line!  But thanks for the line of thought re plain line and S&C.

 

 

 

Cheers John - thats a big help.  Do you suggest Code 82 rail or EMGS Code 83?

 

 

Richie

 

C&L ST baseplates were designed for code 82 rail. Check with the stores manager as to compatiblety with code 83

 

As far as I know the C&L ST base plates do not hold the rail at an angle but upright, it’s a very easy system to use. If you are hoping to use code 82 with the society’s filing jigs I think they will not be compatible. Just use a home made card template and do it by eye

Rich

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Cheers guys,

 

I think im getting sorted slowly.  Colin's various items should sort out the trackwork - just need to get the point templates right now. Colin mentioned that there are differences between Bullhead and Flat Bottommed (ie overlapping sleepers) that end up being incorrect in Templot, so may need to mail Martyn and ask him about that, but getting there.  Thanks to all of you for your help - i'll see if i can come up with a home made jig for filing the 'vees' and point blades.

Richie

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Cheers guys,

 

I think im getting sorted slowly.  Colin's various items should sort out the trackwork - just need to get the point templates right now. Colin mentioned that there are differences between Bullhead and Flat Bottommed (ie overlapping sleepers) that end up being incorrect in Templot, so may need to mail Martyn and ask him about that, but getting there.  Thanks to all of you for your help - i'll see if i can come up with a home made jig for filing the 'vees' and point blades.

 

Richie

Don't email Martin, go on to the Templot forum, if he responds to emails, it's to advise using the forum.

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Thanks guys for all the help and support. 

 

I've had a couple of emails with Colin Craig today which has made things quite a bit clear.  Colin also recommends EMGS Code 83 rail for his items, which is probably what i'll go with.  Not quite sure where that leaves things for the pointwork, but I know Colin does various parts.  The jist of what he was saying (if i've understood everything correctly) is that its likely the pointwork in 1992 on the WCML would predominately be flat bottomed rail on wooden sleeper, with main lines being FB on concrete sleepers, although relief lines could be wooden sleepers, so i'll probably do the goods loop as wooden sleepers for variety, and maybe bullhead rail for the couple of adjacent sidings.

 

So all in all, I think i've made a bit of progress today!  

 

Richie

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Richie

 

Colin's crafted items do look very good and he does have specialist knowledge in this area, one word of warning if his system is anything like the Masokits, then they will extremely challenging to build. I built a Maso kits etched turnout even adjusting for the additional time the first build takes, it will be an extremely prolonged process when compared building a turnout using either Peco, C&L or Exactoscale components.

 

Building in EM gauge will still be a compromise, both in gauge and also in the reduction in turnout length/size I would think about what you are trying to achieve.

 

The first thing will be to sort out a track plan and decide what size turnouts you will require, once you have that information you can then choose which system/method suites your project

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Thanks John,

A worthwhile comment, and overall very sensible advice, so many thanks.  Once i've got the track plan fully sorted, i'll probably create a thread on the layout planning section (and i'll include a link here) and would welcome peoples thoughts on things.

 

I have to say, im pleased I started this topic, I thought hand-building track was a fairly simple affair overall, I never realised there were so many variables, complications and options!!!

 

Cheers

Richie

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Trackwork can either be as easy or as complicated as you wish,

 

I was hoping to try and replicate a flatbottom turnout in as much detail as an Exactoscale bullhead kit, I gave up the idea due to both the complexity and size of modern turnouts, Have a look at the MMRS link to concrete sleepers and fixings and see how many variations that were produced. In the end I settled on 1.6 mm thick plastic timbers, C&L ST baseplates, 4 bolt slide chairs and a few spares from Exactoscale switch and common crossing frets. Once ballasted looked fine and relatively easy and inexpensive to make

 

Manchester Model Railway Society link http://www.mmrs.co.uk/technical-articles/modern-permanent-way/

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Thanks John.

 

I'll take a look at the link shortly.  

 

Im thinking that once i've got the track plan nailed down, which i'm almost there with, then the big first task is to get the fiddle yard sidings laid as they will all be covered (with accessibility points) by the scenic boards, so I cannot do anything until those roads are down. Im going to go with Code 83 and copper clad sleepers for the fiddle yard track, then move to more detailed trackwork for the scenic areas where it can be seen and photographed.  Sounds like I am starting a fun game ... but i'm sure it will be worth it.  The project is a long-term one, and not quick put it together, sell and move onto the next, so i want to make sure i get it as right as possible.  As i want to do photographs and that of the models, I also want to make sure it looks as good as possible.

 

The one thing i like with Colin's approach is being able to solder the track to the copper clad sleepers, then add the cosmetic clips subsequently, sounds a bit less fiddly than sliding chair after chair after chair onto rail!

 

Richie

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Thanks John.

 

I'll take a look at the link shortly.  

 

Im thinking that once i've got the track plan nailed down, which i'm almost there with, then the big first task is to get the fiddle yard sidings laid as they will all be covered (with accessibility points) by the scenic boards, so I cannot do anything until those roads are down. Im going to go with Code 83 and copper clad sleepers for the fiddle yard track, then move to more detailed trackwork for the scenic areas where it can be seen and photographed.  Sounds like I am starting a fun game ... but i'm sure it will be worth it.  The project is a long-term one, and not quick put it together, sell and move onto the next, so i want to make sure i get it as right as possible.  As i want to do photographs and that of the models, I also want to make sure it looks as good as possible.

 

The one thing i like with Colin's approach is being able to solder the track to the copper clad sleepers, then add the cosmetic clips subsequently, sounds a bit less fiddly than sliding chair after chair after chair onto rail!

 

Richie

 

In the old days of austerity it was common practice to make the fiddle yards this way as they only used every third sleeper.

 

As for threading the fixings verses soldering directly to the copperclad then soldering cosmetic chairs, good luck. I cannot comment about Colin's products but just look at my thread when I built the Masso kit

 

As for sliding chairs on the ST baseplates are simplicity in action. Dress the end of the rail which slides on to the baseplate, with the baseplate still on its sprue slide the rail on, then cut from the sprue. Easily mastered in a few seconds. But use which ever method that pleases you. 

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It's probably worth highlighting that C&L produce two different flexi-track ranges.  I think that their thin sleeper version is only available with a representation of timber sleepers.  This seems to be £6.60 per metre.  Their thick sleeper range was acquired from Exactoscale a few years ago and is available with concrete sleepers and flat bottom rail.  This seems to be £9.00 per yard.  If you need 110 yards then I think you'll be spending more than £580.  Six boxes of 20 yards at £162 per box comes to £972.  Five boxes of 20 yards and 10 individual lengths comes to £900.

 

See http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=346_361_363_365 

 

They also produce a thick sleeper timber version with bullhead rail at the same price (£9.00 per yard) but strangely the EM version seems to be listed under 00.  See http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=346_375_377_379.

 

Sorry I can't help with the turnouts.  However, I'd assume in your time period that the plain line would be flat bottom rail on concrete sleepers and the S&C would be flat bottom rail on timber timbers.

 

C&L prices on rail/track have taken a big jump in price, certainly in 00 bullhead PECO is going to put all these products out of business , currently its £4/yard ( 915mm) in packs of 25 , thats approaching half C&L 00 gauge track .  

 

of course thats no use for EM !!! :scratchhead:

Edited by Junctionmad
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