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Solar powered trains...


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A shame the choose to extol the virtues of 750v DC third rail.

 

Generating your own renewable power is a good idea, I believe that the Benguela railway did this in the 1930s and 40s using equipment supplied from Manchester*.

 

Realistically it'd be clever to appreciate that the cheap energy boom of fossil fuels has a price and won't last forever, therefore our railway infrastructure should all (apart from small sidings) be electrified (AC) and our stock and supply infrastructure built with capacity for regenerative braking. Unfortunately people look at cost in £ now, whereas it is a bit more sensible to look at energy consumption and where that fuel comes from.

 

* By equipment supplied from Manchester, I mean large garratts (although there were some nice locos from other suppliers too), and by renewable energy I mean great big Eucalyptus plantations along the line for fuelling the locos. Sadly this sustainable self contained part of the operation was thrown away in favour of importing expensive oil and diesels, then blowing a lot of it up in the civil war.

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Being as the best place to put solar panels is on rooftops then it is surely a happy coincedence that some of the most densely populated parts of the country are served by DC electrification.  It could power the Metrolink, Tyne and Wear Metro and Glasgow underground as well as the area formerly known as Network Southeast.

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Low voyage dc con rail systems are sadly misunderstood when it comes to energy efficiency - with right design, they can be more energy efficient than is usually assumed.

It wasn't just energy efficiency I was thinking of (although low voltage/high current is far from ideal for resistance reasons) or the icing problems but there are significant safety implications for 3rd rail - hence it generally only survives in areas where it has its own right of way (eg. Tunnels - where ohle would require a bigger bore) and is separated from foot or road traffic, or where the powers that be are unwilling or can't afford to pay for it to be upgraded to proper AC ohle.

 

If we were electrifying the southern region from scratch today nobody would be proposing or advocating 3rd rail - for long distance open running lines it is an anachronism.

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Probably not, but I notice that the cries to convert to 25kV have become more muted as the significance of tunnels, of which Kent has a goodly crop, sinks in.

 

The thing that 'everyone' forgets in the 'low voltage, high current' part of the debate is that for 99% of the distance from generator to train, the energy flows in the form of high voltage, three-phase, which is actually a very efficient means of transmission.

 

Anyway, back to solar. I can't see anywhere in the article reference to NR participation in the work; did I overlook it?

 

K

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there are significant safety implications for 3rd rail - hence it generally only survives in areas where it has its own right of way

 

Is it that dangerous? I worked with it for decades and it is no worse than OHL.

 

There is a bit of a trade off 3rd rail is more underfoot and hence more likely to be touched, but you will likely get away with it.

OHL is up out of the way so you are less likely to fall foul of it, but if you do it is deadly almost every time.

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Bordeaux seem to operate a modern tram system through the historic city using a centre third rail. I'm not sure of the engineering but it is somehow only energised in tram length sections as the vehicles move along. Yes I know it's low speed low voltage but it would be interesting to know the maximum capabilty of such a system, particularly if it answers some of the saftey issues.

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No-one seems to be discussing the area of solar panels required to power a train service. Obviously this would vary by climate/time of year etc, but it would be interesting to do some back of the envelope calculations.

 

Edit: here's a starting point: 

http://info.cat.org.uk/questions/pv/how-much-electricity-will-pv-roof-produce/

which says in the UK, for a typical domestic roof ...

To illustrate this: A PV roof consisting of 15 modules rated at 180W can produce a maximum of around 2,700 watts (2.7kW rated capacity). Over the course of a year, this roof will produce between around 1,800 and 2,400 kWh (units) of electricity

Edited by eastwestdivide
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No-one seems to be discussing the area of solar panels required to power a train service. Obviously this would vary by climate/time of year etc, but it would be interesting to do some back of the envelope calculations.

 

Edit: here's a starting point:

http://info.cat.org.uk/questions/pv/how-much-electricity-will-pv-roof-produce/

which says in the UK, for a typical domestic roof ...

Ooh, that could power a 91 for about half an hour then.

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Solar would suit countries such as Spain or regions such as California I'd imagine best.

 

Wind power or wave power is better suited to the UKs resources generally, though obviously not for directly on trains, but wind turbines along the lines could work well enough perhaps?

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Solar would suit countries such as Spain or regions such as California I'd imagine best.

 

Wind power or wave power is better suited to the UKs resources generally, though obviously not for directly on trains, but wind turbines along the lines could work well enough perhaps?

And yet, travelling around the UK, it's surprising how many fields you see now "planted" with solar panel arrays. 

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Solar radiation is something in the order of 900-1200kWh per annum per square metre in the UK, with Scotland at the lower end of that, and Cornwall the upper end.

 

I can see why rail traction is being advocated as a use for whatever can be harvested, because it is a load that always present when the sun is shining, no need to 'buffer store' in batteries, which come with their own inefficiencies, whereas many loads (lighting, heating etc) tend to absent or small when the sun shines, and huge when it doesn't.

 

One would put the PV in parallel with the grid-derived supply, so it wouldn't be a case of 'how much PV to run a train?' but 'how much reduction in grid-derived consumption by adding PV?'. Even a few square metres, covering a substation roof perhaps, might well pay back, although it wouldn't exactly save the planet.

 

K

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The title reminds me of an energy saving idea I submitted to Blue Peter over 35 years ago - a train powered by solar panels on it's roof! I did get a badge out of it!

Edited by Welly
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The title reminds me of an energy saving idea I submitted to Blue Peter over 35 years ago - a train powered by solar panels on it's roof! I did get a badge out of it!

 

 

A good job you didn't sent the idea in to Jim'll Fix It.

You might have been invited to the BBC.

 

 

.

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Solar radiation is something in the order of 900-1200kWh per annum per square metre in the UK, with Scotland at the lower end of that, and Cornwall the upper end.

 

I can see why rail traction is being advocated as a use for whatever can be harvested, because it is a load that always present when the sun is shining, no need to 'buffer store' in batteries, which come with their own inefficiencies, whereas many loads (lighting, heating etc) tend to absent or small when the sun shines, and huge when it doesn't.

 

One would put the PV in parallel with the grid-derived supply, so it wouldn't be a case of 'how much PV to run a train?' but 'how much reduction in grid-derived consumption by adding PV?'. Even a few square metres, covering a substation roof perhaps, might well pay back, although it wouldn't exactly save the planet.

 

K

I doubt if a solar roof could even run the equipment within the substation, never mind contribute to the traction.

 

Though saying that, I believe that the substations along the WCML at Colwich Jn, Norton Bridge and Bletchley all have solar panels. Others too, probably.

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Solar panel development is progressing faster than some realise. Everyone goes on about sunlight, when it is daylight that can now be used.

I would also rather see more 3rd rail electrication. It might cost more to run, but many railway lines in the UK would need a lot of rebuilding)bridges and tunnels), to have overhead supply. I seem to remember one preserved steam loco almost losing part of it chimey because clearance had been reduced when tunnel was repaired near to Burnley.

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The eco sustainability wallahs in one of my former employers thought they'd done a grand job saving the world when they installed solar panels on the roof of an office block in a 2.6GW coal power station. They denounced the rest of us as reactionary trouble makers for extracting the urine at every opportunity.

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I would also rather see more 3rd rail electrication. It might cost more to run, but many railway lines in the UK would need a lot of rebuilding)bridges and tunnels), to have overhead supply. I seem to remember one preserved steam loco almost losing part of it chimey because clearance had been reduced when tunnel was repaired near to Burnley.

Good, we could get proper AC electrification and a better loading gauge at the same time.

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