Bachmann 00 61xx GWR tank?

[swiftbeam]

Hi Guys,

 

Will it ever happen???

 

I'm not sure how long I'll be happy to watch my old Hornby 61xx drag it's self around!

 

Thanks.

[The Johnster]

Wasn't aware Baccy were even considering one, either in 61xx or any other form (5101 were visually identical and a much larger class wider spread geographically).  

 

I am still running my old Airfix, my oldest loco and a not unsatisfactory model.  It masquerades as a 5101, and has, over the years, acquired new pony and radial wheels, lost it's traction tyre and had that wheel replaced with one from a friend's dead loco, new cast whitemetal buffers, and one day may get a proper smokebox dart.  It still runs perfectly, in fact better than ever, and slow running and smooth stop'n'start is on a par with any of my more modern models.  It is a little noisy, but I rather like it's re-assuring class 37 growl..

 

Where it shows it's age is in the cab detail (there isn't any) and rather crude piston and crosshead assembly.  I assume that it will be beyond saving when the current carbon brushes give out, but given it's light use on a tiny BLT I am hoping it'll outlast me!

 

I suspect the market has been flooded with the various versions of this model for many years and that no RTR replacement is likely for a while, but the demand must be there.  Baccy are probably thinking more in terms of GW tender locos first, though, 2251, Manor, and 43xx (the latter 2 can share a mechanism with a large prairie), and have yet to show any sign of producing their promised 94xx.  There may be an opening here for Ox or one of the commisioners.

[adb968008]

In price sensitive times suburban passengers tanks must be a good choice, as there aren’t many of them and there are many prototypes to pick from.

A 41/51/61xx must be good (I did see a suggestion someone might be thinking of one elsewhere but think it’s more likely a red herring), but equally LMS Stanier and Fowler 2-6-2t’s, Tilbury tank, variations of the Fowler 2-6-4t and an 84xxx are all deserving and as yet never been modelled... the N7 is decades overdue but at last recognised and is coming, even if the most desirable livery has so far been held back.

Edited October 8, 2017 by adb968008

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I suspect the market has been flooded with the various versions of this model for many years and that no RTR replacement is likely for a while...

 Or maybe 'ever'? The once feasible 'renewal' programmes that both Bachmann and Hornby were operating, superseding their own and each others existing but very dated models with 'current standard'  replacements appear to me to have run out of steam for all but the most iconic classes.

 

I feel this is a function of both perceived greater price and increasing choice. It will cost £xxx for an ABCD class, of which I already have an older model or three (which work and while not top drawer do look decent) but for the same expenditure there are choices of the EFGH, IJKLM and NOPQ classes, all appropriate to my modelling and none ever previously available RTR, (and my attempts at kit builds for two of them are not good) so which way do I jump?

 

 

In price sensitive times suburban passengers tanks must be a good choice, as there aren’t many of them and there are many prototypes to pick from...

 The question for the manufacturer is which do I make most money on? Winning sales aganst a heap of s/h models tending to put downward pressure on price, or subjects with no previous model?  And there are some corkers in the 'no previous model' lists: think livery and name options on the likes of the Tilbury tanks, the elegance of a Robinson 4-6-2T, the appealingly feeble 'Breadvan', the variations in the Caley's very competent 0-4-4T group.

[tomparryharry]

A Great Western large prairie? With such a varied & long lived class I can see posts a plenty.

 

6 years of forum material, at least!

 

Remember to self: Buy more shares in computer keyboard makers....

 

Ian.

Edited October 8, 2017 by tomparryharry

[adb968008]

The question for the manufacturer is which do I make most money on?

Opening the books is probably a good measure.

If researching prototypes reveals pages and pages of historical photographs in published material, it’s a good indication that both the photographers of the day, and the books desire to publish them is indication they were popular and remain sellable in book form.

It also helps for a good research material.

 

If there’s nothing out there in print or online... it’s obscure or uninteresting and probably a riskier sale.

As an example, Consider how many pictures you find of a Class 01 diesel shunter, then do the same for a class 02.

Which did djh choose way back when...

Edited October 8, 2017 by adb968008

[Ian Hargrave]

In price sensitive times suburban passengers tanks must be a good choice, as there aren’t many of them and there are many prototypes to pick from.

A 41/51/61xx must be good (I did see a suggestion someone might be thinking of one elsewhere but think it’s more likely a red herring), but equally LMS Stanier and Fowler 2-6-2t’s, Tilbury tank, variations of the Fowler 2-6-4t and an 84xxx are all deserving and as yet never been modelled... the N7 is decades overdue but at last recognised and is coming, even if the most desirable livery has so far been held back.

Something fishy here ? Best to wait till the boat comes in........

[Hilux5972]

I can’t understand why it hasn’t been snapped up yet by any manufacturer. I believe the only major external difference between the 31xx/41xx/51xx/61xx/81xx classes was the wheel diameter on the 81xx. I know lots of smaller detail differences exist but the wheels on that one variant would be the only major difference, requiring a slightly different chassis.

[Dunsignalling]

Given that there is a large prairie available, albeit a facelifted relic from the 1980s, any new one should be of lower priority than a Mogul or Manor, neither of which has been produced for a good few years now.

 

My guess is that it's about as likely as a Hornby Lord Nelson..............

 

John

Edited October 8, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

Given that there is a large prairie available, albeit a facelifted relic from the 1980s, any new one should be of lower priority than a Mogul or Manor, neither of which has been produced for a good few years now.

 

My guess is that it's about as likely as a Hornby Lord Nelson..............

 

John

Mogul, Manor, Grange and 51xx ... they all share the same wheels, cylinders (and tender where relevant).

It’s not a big jump (compared to starting from scratch) for Hornby to go to any of them from the Grange.

 

Thing is will repeats sell, if tender engines sell in a world rapidly approaching £200 for a DCC ready loco.

If a tank engine is £150 it’s psychologically easier, but then again.. would something else sell better ?

Edited October 9, 2017 by adb968008

[swiftbeam]

All seems rather gloomy. I'd have thought a fresh up to date 61xx would have been a 'home run'.

 

I've had a good poke inside my 61xx and decided to buy a Mashima motor. I'll turn up a big flywheel and attack the chassis with my mill until the motor fits. 

 

I'm hoping a better motor will help with running, can't be worse than the cheap 3 pole can motor I've got!

 

I'll post pics and report back.

Edited October 8, 2017 by swiftbeam

[Steamport Southport]

I can’t understand why it hasn’t been snapped up yet by any manufacturer. I believe the only major external difference between the 31xx/41xx/51xx/61xx/81xx classes was the wheel diameter on the 81xx. I know lots of smaller detail differences exist but the wheels on that one variant would be the only major difference, requiring a slightly different chassis.

 

Also different size boilers. different frames, different cabs, etc. Particularly on the 31XX, 3150 and 51XX (not to be confused with the 5101 series).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_5100_Class

 

 

 

Jason

[Ian Hargrave]

Given that there is a large prairie available, albeit a facelifted relic from the 1980s, any new one should be of lower priority than a Mogul or Manor, neither of which has been produced for a good few years now.

 

My guess is that it's about as likely as a Hornby Lord Nelson..............

 

John

 

But are you looking with Nelson's eye ?  and maybe in the wrong direction.....

Edited October 9, 2017 by Ian Hargrave

[Hilux5972]

Also different size boilers. different frames, different cabs, etc. Particularly on the 31XX, 3150 and 51XX (not to be confused with the 5101 series).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_5100_Class

 

 

 

Jason

That cab yes but I thought the only boiler difference was the higher pressure on the 61xx. Is there a physical size difference?

[Dunsignalling]

Mogul, Manor, Grange and 51xx ... they all share the same wheels, cylinders (and tender where relevant).

It’s not a big jump (compared to starting from scratch) for Hornby to go to any of them from the Grange.

 

Thing is will repeats sell, if tender engines sell in a world rapidly approaching £200 for a DCC ready loco.

If a tank engine is £150 it’s psychologically easier, but then again.. would something else sell better ?

If you are considering GWR locos, there aren't too many numerous/popular/operationally useful ones left to choose from without reviving some that have been done previously. Bulldog and Aberdare spring to mind but not much else.

 

The previous attempts at the Manor and 43xx weren't up to much by todays standards and the split axles will be so old by now that those that haven't failed already, won't be long about it. 

 

A mate of mine has half-a-dozen J39s of similar vintage/spec with two dead already, two more well on the way and only one that can honestly be described as a good runner.

 

If it were me, I'd be looking at releasing either in 2020, by which time more of the old ones will have expired, and the other a year or two later. 

 

As for the Prairie, I reckon Bachmann think the likelihood of Hornby already having a better one under development is just too great.

 

John

Edited October 9, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[tomparryharry]

I understand that the Shapeways site has got a new set of spacers on their books. Might prove to become a relatively cheap repair.

 

Ian.

[Hilux5972]

You never know, Hornby could surprise us for 2018.

[tomparryharry]

I did ask Hornby very nicely if they would consider making a new pannier.

 

However, if it's a straight choice between a pannier, and a Prairie, then the money's on the prairie. Less work to accomplish the product.

 

Someone mentioned Aberdare? Now we're talking!

 

Ian.

[brushman47544]

Hi Guys,

 

Will it ever happen???

 

I'm not sure how long I'll be happy to watch my old Hornby 61xx drag it's self around!

 

Thanks.

 

Why Bachmann, which already has two Prairies in its range? Far more likely that Hornby will at some point do a replacement, although the current tooling is better than some other models in the Railroad range.

Edited October 9, 2017 by brushman47544

[D9020 Nimbus]

Heljan do the 61xx in 'O'...

[The Johnster]

Given that there is a large prairie available, albeit a facelifted relic from the 1980s, any new one should be of lower priority than a Mogul or Manor, neither of which has been produced for a good few years now.

 

My guess is that it's about as likely as a Hornby Lord Nelson..............

 

John

 

 

No large prairie is currently availabe or pending in any form from any RTR manufacturer.  The most recent production run of the Hornby version, itself descended from the old Airfix, is finished and the loco is not listed on their website.  Bachmann do the small prairie, 45xx/4575, and this is a very popular model, but a very different locomotive!  But I agree that the 43xx or Manor are probably higher priorities for RTR manufacturers, and the most likely source of them will be from Bachmann who presumably possess the toolings and have done the research.  These locos are not 'pending in any form' either.

[The Johnster]

Also different size boilers. different frames, different cabs, etc. Particularly on the 31XX, 3150 and 51XX (not to be confused with the 5101 series).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_5100_Class

 

 

 

Jason

 

Confusingly there are two 3150 classes, the later Collett version being very significantly different with a large no.4 boiler similar to the 43xx and much smaller 5'3" driving wheels, a small class intended for Severn Tunnel banking duties; in tractive effort the ultimate large prairie.  Collett 'messed around' with what was not a bad design already to improve it, but the 5101 series, the closest to the original Churchward concept, remained in production into BR days.  61xx, visually identical, had higher boiler pressure intended for better acceleration on London Area suburban trains with a lot of stopping and starting, and 81xx had higher pressure and slightly smaller driving wheels, but were a small class so presumably the gains were not significant.

[The Johnster]

Heljan do the 61xx in 'O'...

The wheels won't fit on my 16mm gauge track...

[The Johnster]

All seems rather gloomy. I'd have thought a fresh up to date 61xx would have been a 'home run'.

 

I've had a good poke inside my 61xx and decided to buy a Mashima motor. I'll turn up a big flywheel and attack the chassis with my mill until the motor fits. 

 

I'm hoping a better motor will help with running, can't be worse than the cheap 3 pole can motor I've got!

 

I'll post pics and report back.

 

Mine runs very well with the original Airfix motor and gears, but took many years to 'run in', being quite stiff for a long time.  Just run it a few million miles and see if it improves, swifty...  

 

And ditch the traction tyre!

[tomparryharry]

No large prairie is currently availabe or pending in any form from any RTR manufacturer.  The most recent production run of the Hornby version, itself descended from the old Airfix, is finished and the loco is not listed on their website.  Bachmann do the small prairie, 45xx/4575, and this is a very popular model, but a very different locomotive!  But I agree that the 43xx or Manor are probably higher priorities for RTR manufacturers, and the most likely source of them will be from Bachmann who presumably possess the toolings and have done the research.  These locos are not 'pending in any form' either.

 

In the world of 'exclusive advantage', it doesn't play well to go about advertising intentions, until the 11th hour, 59th minute. At least until the product is a goer. If Bachmann want to make a 51xx,that's fine. So is Hornby. Don't underestimate the people from Margate. After some top-rate stuff coming from all angles, nothing surprises me any more.

 

Ian.