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Do not. ... while the train is in the station - no more




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#1 whart57

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:45

Network Rail has finally committed to ending the practice of emptying train toilets onto the track by 2019. Apparently there are still over 500 carriages that either need modifications or withdrawal. My reaction to this news is surprise that this practice made it into the 21st century and wasn't already old history
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#2 Richard E

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:30

You've just got to look at the track in most stations and you can see it still happens. As an example platform 4 in Peterborough has quite ample evidence.

 

And I thought more stock than just 500 carriages was still not tanked. As far as I know the HST fleet is still fitted with hopper toilets rather than Controlled Environmet Toilets (CET) and that is 848 carriages. Apparently the agreement with RMT is 5 gallons of effluent per coach per journey. Oh, 225's have CET fitted and they can, when the tank is full, still vent effluent especially on sharp or high speed corners. In fact the Times reports it as 500 TRAINS, not 500 carriages and that is more in line with what I expected.

 

14xx are not retention fitted and also quite a few of the 15x to 158x series apparently are not fitted although they are being retro-fitted.

 

I also gather that the Mk1 and Mk2 stock on heritage lines and used on main line charter workings are currently exempt from CET requirements although NR are making efforts to address this where required (charter market).



#3 Joseph_Pestell

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:34

You've just got to look at the track in most stations and you can see it still happens. As an example platform 4 in Peterborough has quite ample evidence.

 

And I thought more stock than just 500 carriages was still not tanked. As far as I know the HST fleet is still fitted with hopper toilets rather than Controlled Environmet Toilets (CET) and that is 848 carriages. Apparently the agreement with RMT is 5 gallons of effluent per coach per journey. Oh, 225's have CET fitted and they can, when the tank is full, still vent effluent especially on sharp or high speed corners. In fact the Times reports it as 500 TRAINS, not 500 carriages and that is more in line with what I expected.

 

14xx are not retention fitted and also quite a few of the 15x to 158x series apparently are not fitted although they are being retro-fitted.

 

I also gather that the Mk1 and Mk2 stock on heritage lines and used on main line charter workings are currently exempt from CET requirements although NR are making efforts to address this where required (charter market).

On a Pacer (which you have confusingly designated to steam buffs as 14xx) I would have thought that the only safe time/place to use the WC would be when stationary.


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#4 Reorte

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:34

You've just got to look at the track in most stations and you can see it still happens. As an example platform 4 in Peterborough has quite ample evidence.

It probably never occurs to most people why it says don't flush in stations (and some of them wouldn't care less even if they did know).

 

Retention tanks on all trains is long overdue, and that's speaking as someone who in general hates any new "improvement."


Edited by Reorte, 12 October 2017 - 12:35 .

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#5 woodenhead

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:48

There's a lot of (sh)it still about but with the IEP coming on stream, the Pacers being withdrawn and the 15x getting retention toilets then I feel Network Rail feels confident that they can now set a date.

 

Maybe on heritage stock tours they will invoke preserved line common practice and lock the toilets out of use.


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#6 black and decker boy

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:51

All TOC vehicles in use after 2019 will be CET fitted (unless some small fleets are exempted due to the electrification chaos).

HSTs being fitted now along with plug doors on those with a long term future.

All sprinters currently being fitted. All Pacers going for scrap.

Anglia MK3s currently being fitted but coming off lease anyway.

All post privatisation fleets already fitted AFAIK.

On some vehicles it means a reduction in toilets as only 1 tank can be fitted underneath.
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#7 Pete the Elaner

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 13:02

I was unaware that Pacers had toilets. Living in the SE, I have not travelled on them very much.

Class 313/315 have no toilets so I assumed that Pacers were a similar short-journey high density design with no requirement for them either.



#8 D854_Tiger

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 13:05

I also gather that the Mk1 and Mk2 stock on heritage lines and used on main line charter workings are currently exempt from CET requirements although NR are making efforts to address this where required (charter market).

 

 

 

Could this mean the end for mk1 and mk2 charter stock.

 

Presumably heritage lines will continue to be allowed to **** on the tracks in the name of authenticity, though four or five trains each way, on a forty minute journey every weekend, can't generate too much of a problem surely.

 

I believe the longest heritage line with the longest journeys (2 hours) is done with trains without toilets on the Welsh Highland.



#9 Talltim

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 13:23

I was unaware that Pacers had toilets. Living in the SE, I have not travelled on them very much.

Class 313/315 have no toilets so I assumed that Pacers were a similar short-journey high density design with no requirement for them either.

Pacers weren't designed for short-journey high density, but for lightly used branches. Not how they've ended up being used, but...

Also, they aren't all definitely going, only from the Northern franchise, but any that stay will need the accessibility mods and retention toilets. Whether any get done or they all get scrapped remains to be seen.


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#10 woodenhead

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 13:37

I was unaware that Pacers had toilets. Living in the SE, I have not travelled on them very much.

 

They have seats too and a roof, you wouldn't think that reading some of the vitriol about them, they aren't the best but certainly are still a proper train.

 

I remember once racing up the ECML in one between York and Thornaby


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#11 Paul.Uni

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 13:42

I believe the longest heritage line with the longest journeys (2 hours) is done with trains without toilets on the Welsh Highland.

There are toilets in WHR carriages 2010, 2011, 2090 & 2091.



#12 D854_Tiger

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 14:21

There are toilets in WHR carriages 2010, 2011, 2090 & 2091.

 

Blimey I take it back.

 

I based my assumption on the Ffestiniog.



#13 Reorte

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 14:50

I also gather that the Mk1 and Mk2 stock on heritage lines and used on main line charter workings are currently exempt from CET requirements although NR are making efforts to address this where required (charter market).

 

 

Could this mean the end for mk1 and mk2 charter stock.

Are there any significant barriers (cost is always one of course) to fitting tanks to them?



#14 caradoc

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 15:12

Network Rail should, some years ago, have advised Train Operators that the practice of dumping human waste from their trains onto the infrastructure would no longer be acceptable from a certain date, say 10 or perhaps 15 years ahead, to give the Operators plenty of time to replace or modify their fleets. This is an Operator's responsibility, not Network Rail's.


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#15 Merfyn Jones

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 15:19

Blimey I take it back.

 

I based my assumption on the Ffestiniog.

 

Both Festiniog and Welsh Highland trains have toilets with retention tanks.



#16 Dunsignalling

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 15:20

Network Rail has finally committed to ending the practice of emptying train toilets onto the track by 2019. Apparently there are still over 500 carriages that either need modifications or withdrawal. My reaction to this news is surprise that this practice made it into the 21st century and wasn't already old history

This has been on the cards, though not publicly given an end date, for some years and nobody inside the industry will be remotely surprised. It's been a requirement for new stock since the 159s were introduced in the early 1990s, if not a bit before that.

 

Now is a very good time to finalise the matter as a lot of stock will receive modifications (or be withdrawn) to comply with up-coming implementation of accessibility legislation. It's only sensible to tackle both issues concurrently. 

 

John


Edited by Dunsignalling, 12 October 2017 - 15:36 .

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#17 Welly

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 15:30

Deutsche Bahn fitted retention tanks to all their passenger stock a few years ago after one farmer complained about the cr@p falling into his field off the top of a cattle creep under a line! One farmer!!!


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#18 Nearholmer

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 15:39

A further, deeply saddening, sign of the passing of the traditional railway, in my view.

Windows that you can't lean out of a speeding train to breathe fresh air; toilets that don't fill the air with a fine mist of raw sewage; staff that smile and try to help you; where will it all end? That's what I want to know.
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#19 APOLLO

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 15:46

There used to be an old ditty

 

"It's wise to practice constipation whilst the train is in the station da de da de da de da de daa"

 

Brit15



#20 D854_Tiger

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 16:16

Both Festiniog and Welsh Highland trains have toilets with retention tanks.

 

I wasn't aware you could walk between adjoining carriages on the Ffestiniog, that's always been my assumption on my numerous visits there.


A further, deeply saddening, sign of the passing of the traditional railway, in my view.

Windows that you can't lean out of a speeding train to breathe fresh air; toilets that don't fill the air with a fine mist of raw sewage; staff that smile and try to help you; where will it all end? That's what I want to know.

 

Tomato plants in the four foot.


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#21 Andrew F

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 16:21

I'm going to have to work fast here (there are still some lines I require for "splattage") before the government has us all sealed up for good.


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#22 The Stationmaster

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 16:28

Count yourselves lucky that trains will actually have toilets - the junk TfL will drop on us in a few years time on GWML local trains east of Reading will wind the clock back 60 years to the era of stopping trains with bench seats and no toilets (but at least they had luggage racks).  Apparently TfL will require passengers to be fitted with their own retention tanks.


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#23 whart57

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 16:52

They have seats too and a roof, you wouldn't think that reading some of the vitriol about them, they aren't the best but certainly are still a proper train.

 

I remember once racing up the ECML in one between York and Thornaby

Those of us who live in the SE sometimes wonder if our trains have seats, it's hard to see if they do through the sardine packed passengers


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#24 Richard E

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 17:10

BR actually experimented with tanks on Mk1 stock but it wasn't terribly successful. It can be done though.



#25 frobisher

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 17:49

Are there any significant barriers (cost is always one of course) to fitting tanks to them?


Mostly the cost for full retention tanks and finding space to fit them on MK1/2 stock. Apparently there is work afoot to trialling "bio-reactor" systems for heritage stock, which still discharges "gray-water" waste which is acceptable to discharge which then only need smaller retention tanks for the solids. These should cost a lot less to fit, and wouldn't need expensive discharge equipment at depots.