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Ordering from C&L





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#51 TheSignalEngineer

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:02

Martyn

The cost of copperclad timbers has rocketed and the cost would be more than 100 chairs then add the cost etchings, what about the additional time these kits take to build and that a moulded chair looks far better (in my mind) than an etched one

I recently bought some small copperclad sheets from an electronics supplier for the first time in a while and was surprised at the current price.

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#52 hayfield

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 13:24

I have had a chance to catch up with Phil, he mentioned that he is trying to work through a backlog of enquiries and orders. Unfortunately unknown to Phil a system of C&L which when turned off affected the incoming emails. Phil is now working through what he has but is finding some of the customer email addresses are missing, might be worthwile giving him a call if you are still waiting 


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#53 MikeH_83

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 19:13

Question..  When ordering and paying by bank xfer, It says at the top to pay when he has picked it and sent an invoice, but at the bottom of the page it gives you the info and tells you to pay now as does the email you get after placing an order?  Which method has everyone else done?



#54 Park

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 19:40

Interesting observation. I just left it with waiting for the email that comes once packed and ready to pay. Maybe this is where it's all going wrong

 

So if we had ordered and paid straight away we would all have our goodies by now ?

 

I suspect I am thinking along the same lines as others. Here is our order, send us an email for payment as instructed if you want our business you will be in touch. No malice against the guy and we all want his business to thrive and supply us what we want



#55 Ron Heggs

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 19:41

Question..  When ordering and paying by bank xfer, It says at the top to pay when he has picked it and sent an invoice, but at the bottom of the page it gives you the info and tells you to pay now as does the email you get after placing an order?  Which method has everyone else done?

 

Hi, Mike

 

Knowing how busy Phil is, I suggest you pay as soon as possible after placing your order, that will cut out the requirement for him to take time out to send you a return email. It also means he can pick you order and post it, knowing that he does not need to chase payment, and have picked orders waiting for confirmation of payment

 

I pay by Credit Card, after giving Phil a couple of days to go through his orders, etc. I phone him with the credit card details, and he can pick the order and post, usually all within a day

 

Ron


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#56 hayfield

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 07:48

Question..  When ordering and paying by bank xfer, It says at the top to pay when he has picked it and sent an invoice, but at the bottom of the page it gives you the info and tells you to pay now as does the email you get after placing an order?  Which method has everyone else done?

 

 

Interesting observation. I just left it with waiting for the email that comes once packed and ready to pay. Maybe this is where it's all going wrong

 

So if we had ordered and paid straight away we would all have our goodies by now ?

 

I suspect I am thinking along the same lines as others. Here is our order, send us an email for payment as instructed if you want our business you will be in touch. No malice against the guy and we all want his business to thrive and supply us what we want

 

 

I had a chat with Phil on Tuesday, the way he had hoped the system would work was not as seamless as he had hoped and in fact there was an issue with part of the email system being being affected by something else owned by the previous owner being turned off, at this moment it would be wise to give Phil a call whilst the new system is being bedded in 



#57 Junctionmad

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 09:23

As a track builder I do sincerely hope Phil gets over these initial " road bumps" , ultimately he needs to have an IT System that automates all the stages of the purchase , from catalogue display , shopping cart management , credit card handling , all with automated email confirmation.

This is where he initially needs to focus , attending shows is a distraction at this stage. If he doesn't sort the ordering process , the business enters a vicious cycle of delays , followed by order chasing , excessive late follow up communications , phone calls from customers etc. All of this drains an incredible amount of time from a single person proprietor. It's the whole reason amazons third party seller infrastructure exists.

It's easy to sit here and offer Phil advice, but at the same time , there is no such thing as a " cottage industry ". We have all largely moved to online shopping for many things, and irrespective of the " cottage " , we expect to be able to place an order online , pay for it online and receive order and then shipping confirmation, in the vast majority of cases all without further communications , written or verbal being needed.

Again from the personal experience of having a distribution based side of the business for many years , where staff are limited you must automate as much of the process as possible , otherwise you drown in a sea of unnecessary activity, chasing orders, chasing payments , dealing with increasingly irate customers etc. A receipe for disaster


Phil needs to develop his IT system so that , at selected intervals he can print off orders, all with fully paid amounts, pick and ship those orders without further ado. payment should always be taken with order to remove chase up issues and online stock levels will deal with items not available.

Also he needs to rationalise payment systems , don't accept cheques/postal orders or bank Xfer, certainly not at the start , only accept online precleared money transfer systems .

If Phil is short of time , then he would be better taking the business down for a period , so as to get this all sorted out. otherwise you end up in a crocodile and swamp draining mess.

Edited by Junctionmad, 09 November 2017 - 09:31 .

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#58 chris p bacon

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 09:49

As a track builder I do sincerely hope Phil gets over these initial " road bumps" , ultimately he needs to have an IT System that automates all the stages of the purchase , from catalogue display , shopping cart management , credit card handling , all with automated email confirmation.

This is where he initially needs to focus , attending shows is a distraction at this stage. If he doesn't sort the ordering process , the business enters a vicious cycle of delays , followed by order chasing , excessive late follow up communications , phone calls from customers etc. All of this drains an incredible amount of time from a single person proprietor. It's the whole reason amazons third party seller infrastructure exists.

It's easy to sit here and offer Phil advice, but at the same time , there is no such thing as a " cottage industry ". We have all largely moved to online shopping for many things, and irrespective of the " cottage " , we expect to be able to place an order online , pay for it online and receive order and then shipping confirmation, in the vast majority of cases all without further communications , written or verbal being needed.

Again from the personal experience of having a distribution based side of the business for many years , where staff are limited you must automate as much of the process as possible , otherwise you drown in a sea of unnecessary activity, chasing orders, chasing payments , dealing with increasingly irate customers etc. A receipe for disaster


Phil needs to develop his IT system so that , at selected intervals he can print off orders, all with fully paid amounts, pick and ship those orders without further ado. payment should always be taken with order to remove chase up issues and online stock levels will deal with items not available.

Also he needs to rationalise payment systems , don't accept cheques/postal orders or bank Xfer, certainly not at the start , only accept online precleared money transfer systems .

If Phil is short of time , then he would be better taking the business down for a period , so as to get this all sorted out. otherwise you end up in a crocodile and swamp draining mess.

While what you say has substance, the reality is that if he has limited IT skills he'll have to buy them in and they are not cheap.   Counter the added cost with the 2 posts below.

 

Just looked at the C+L site, 500 3 bolt chairs £27.50, you telling me they cost this much to make?, and i noticed a lot of the other stuff has shot up in price as well.

Was  going to start a new layout this year, but at the price he is asking, that will not happen.

 

 

If the price is to steep, people are likely to cut back on purchases by scaling down the size of the next great project or spreading the spend over a longer period of time.

 

 

Having recently been involved in website creation that includes a shop as well as payments, he will kiss goodbye to any profits for the first year.  If he can't stand that kind out outlay then he'll have to find another way. 

 

I would disagree with this paragraph though.

there is no such thing as a " cottage industry ". We have all largely moved to online shopping for many things, and irrespective of the " cottage " , we expect to be able to place an order online , pay for it online and receive order and then shipping confirmation, in the vast majority of cases all without further communications , written or verbal being needed.

 

I'm of the opinion that someone like Phil finds a way to operate that works for him and is consistent, trying to fit with what people want is a losing game.  If the product is good and worth buying it will sell itself, and if the only way he can make it work is to attend shows and operate by post then that's what we accept. 


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#59 Junctionmad

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 10:09

While what you say has substance, the reality is that if he has limited IT skills he'll have to buy them in and they are not cheap. Counter the added cost with the 2 posts below.

Shopping carts systems are two a penny, and can be purchased off the shelf , ready to be populated with stock , prices and often come linked to PayPal or worldpay. This is the " cottage " industry of today . It does not involve lettters , unnecessary communications or bank transfers etc. A computer and one person can do a huge amount



Having recently been involved in website creation that includes a shop as well as payments, he will kiss goodbye to any profits for the first year. If he can't stand that kind out outlay then he'll have to find another way.

See my first reply , boilerplate solutions exist and and more then adequate for a startup. ( and are cheap )

I'm of the opinion that someone like Phil finds a way to operate that works for him and is consistent, trying to fit with what people want is a losing game. If the product is good and worth buying it will sell itself, and if the only way he can make it work is to attend shows and operate by post then that's what we accept.

This is a huge error , summed up by the quip " this would be a great business If it wasn't for the customers "

Good products don't " sell themselves " , that's a classic fallacy. If a product is difficult to acquire or tedious to acquire , it will dwindle away , and then is ripe for a competitor.

if this was to decend into a attend shows business , I personally would be agitating that the Finescale societies , all of whom have reasonable online shops should move to secure alternative supply chains.

One presumes that this is not a " hobby " business for Phil , i.e. a business where personal income is a secondary consideration. Phil, presumably expects to extract a reasonable return or reasonably stable income from the business

There's a reason internet selling is dominating the sales industry and is likely to increase in the years ahead , its efficient and cost effective , the selling and payment process is automated , overheads are reduced and most importantly time usage is maximised. in reality there is no other sustainable and scalable way .

therein lies the solution , SAEs , photo copied price lists ,etc are a dying ( and largely dead) breed , you see it so clearly in this hobby as well. Tying up 4 days of effort to attend a show, is fine if all the back office systems are in place, it's extremely foolish , if behind you , all is in chaos

Edited by Junctionmad, 09 November 2017 - 10:18 .

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#60 Jol Wilkinson

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 10:47

We don't know Phil's financial circumstances (nor should we) and it may be that your two a penny solutions are not presently feasible.

The current situation is clearly far from ideal, but it is what it is. Perhaps Phil should have not have reopened the business until he had explored all the posible problems and solutions, but that would have upset some customers. Equally, until he started running the business, stock requirements, internet problems, etc. may not have been apparent.

Perhaps someone with comprehensive commercial IT experience might be willing to volunteer to give Phil a hand to implement their suggestions. Otherwise there is little to be gained by offering such advice here on RMweb.
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#61 chris p bacon

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 11:06

Shopping carts systems are two a penny, and can be purchased off the shelf , ready to be populated with stock , prices and often come linked to PayPal or worldpay. This is the " cottage " industry of today . It does not involve lettters , unnecessary communications or bank transfers etc. A computer and one person can do a huge amount



See my first reply , boilerplate solutions exist and and more then adequate for a startup. ( and are cheap )

This is a huge error , summed up by the quip " this would be a great business If it wasn't for the customers "

Good products don't " sell themselves " , that's a classic fallacy. If a product is difficult to acquire or tedious to acquire , it will dwindle away , and then is ripe for a competitor.

if this was to decend into a attend shows business , I personally would be agitating that the Finescale societies , all of whom have reasonable online shops should move to secure alternative supply chains.

One presumes that this is not a " hobby " business for Phil , i.e. a business where personal income is a secondary consideration. Phil, presumably expects to extract a reasonable return or reasonably stable income from the business

There's a reason internet selling is dominating the sales industry and is likely to increase in the years ahead , its efficient and cost effective , the selling and payment process is automated , overheads are reduced and most importantly time usage is maximised. in reality there is no other sustainable and scalable way .

therein lies the solution , SAEs , photo copied price lists ,etc are a dying ( and largely dead) breed , you see it so clearly in this hobby as well. Tying up 4 days of effort to attend a show, is fine if all the back office systems are in place, it's extremely foolish , if behind you , all is in chaos

 

While site plugins are indeed available if you don't have the skills then you have to purchase the relevant skills to apply them, none of this is cheap and trying to apply to an existing site is not straightforward.  In our own experience of trying to apply a shop and other facilities we've had to scrap the existing site and build a new one as the existing is unsupported after just 4 years.

 

Whenever businesses are sold on there are problems and issues, with the best will on both sides these can't be avoided. I'm willing to give Phil some time to find a way that works for him, and as a customer that has purchased £4k+ plus (from C&L) in the last few years, and likely to purchase more, I want him to succeed, but in a way that means he can continue trading long term.

 

 

Slightly off at tangent,  but for a working website where you can order what you like and pay for it seamlessly how about this one.

http://shop.cooper-c...ex.php?cPath=61

 

Probably better if you didn't though.


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#62 hayfield

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 17:53

I think with hind sight Phil would agree with you, plus I think how he imagined the business would run in practice was a bit wrong and he is taking steps to remedy the issue

 

For the last year or more Peter was trying to sell the business, so all investment was stopped. There is now a massive catch up to be made to take the business forward and its Phil's intention is to improve the products in many areas. You are right he needs to get things straight as quickly as possible. On the other hand like all small businesses he has to keep lots of balls in the air at the same time.

 

The business needs to go back to a cottage industry style, so profits can be made to invest into the product range. The first job is to get a reliable yet easy to use trading method working, this will benefit all, going to shows will be an important aspect of this.

 

Its a pity I live so far away from him as there are a few things I could have helped with, having said this I do plan to go and see him and give him a hand in a couple of areas

 

Again if anyone has a specific issue send me a PM and I will try and assist. 


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#63 Anglian

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 18:32

Out of interest where about is he based?



#64 meld

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 18:33

Out of interest where about is he based?

 

A simple google  ..... http://www.finescale.org.uk/

 

MC


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#65 hayfield

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 07:36

Out of interest where about is he based?

The address is on the website

 

125 Reaver House 12 East Street Epsom KT17 1HX Phone 01372 748490


Edited by hayfield, 10 November 2017 - 08:02 .

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#66 jonhall

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 08:13

The address is on the website

 

125 Reaver House 12 East Street Epsom KT17 1HX Phone 01372 748490

 

Which I believe is his flat, but the workshop/warehouse is a garden shed elsewhere, which probably doesn't help. 

 

I think Phil is still on a steep learning curve, the previous owners blog was a pretty good window into the trials and tribulations of running the business, and whilst C&L under Phil's ownership is a much more modest enterprise than Pete's, it's still quite a big job to be getting to grips with.

 

A quick look on his website also reveals 27 shows next year - I doubt there are many trader/manufacturers that do that number, and half probably need the weekend away from home, evena local show probably gets to four days by the time prepping stock, loading the van on a Friday, then unloading and sorting out at show orders on Monday.

 

Jon


Edited by jonhall, 10 November 2017 - 08:21 .


#67 Wellyboots

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 13:56

Shopping carts systems are two a penny, and can be purchased off the shelf , ready to be populated with stock , prices and often come linked to PayPal or worldpay. This is the " cottage " industry of today . It does not involve lettters , unnecessary communications or bank transfers etc. A computer and one person can do a huge amount



See my first reply , boilerplate solutions exist and and more then adequate for a startup. ( and are cheap )

This is a huge error , summed up by the quip " this would be a great business If it wasn't for the customers "

Good products don't " sell themselves " , that's a classic fallacy. If a product is difficult to acquire or tedious to acquire , it will dwindle away , and then is ripe for a competitor.

if this was to decend into a attend shows business , I personally would be agitating that the Finescale societies , all of whom have reasonable online shops should move to secure alternative supply chains.

One presumes that this is not a " hobby " business for Phil , i.e. a business where personal income is a secondary consideration. Phil, presumably expects to extract a reasonable return or reasonably stable income from the business

There's a reason internet selling is dominating the sales industry and is likely to increase in the years ahead , its efficient and cost effective , the selling and payment process is automated , overheads are reduced and most importantly time usage is maximised. in reality there is no other sustainable and scalable way .

therein lies the solution , SAEs , photo copied price lists ,etc are a dying ( and largely dead) breed , you see it so clearly in this hobby as well. Tying up 4 days of effort to attend a show, is fine if all the back office systems are in place, it's extremely foolish , if behind you , all is in chaos

 

The problem is that you're confusing the supply of consumer goods to the retail market with the supply of specialized products to niche markets. Being a customer in the model railway market is much more like the situation industrial customers face; general items, such as tools, PPE and comestibles, can be purchased via e-commerce click and buy but a lot of the more specialize products cannot and much more effort is required to make a purchase.

 

There are many suppliers of model railway products that, although having websites, don't do e-commerce but are well established and don't appear to be dwindling away. Is it possible that most of their customers are accepting of this situation, knowing how a particular supplier does business and how to obtain their products? In C&L's case there are a couple of ways to obtain their products, the trading at shows side seems to be working and is a major part of their business model but the e-commerce/email/phone side isn't doing so well. So would it be better to ditch the e-commerce click and buy side of the website and just use it as a catalogue with sale via phone/email/reserve for pickup at shows as others do?    


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#68 hayfield

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 09:00

Which I believe is his flat, but the workshop/warehouse is a garden shed elsewhere, which probably doesn't help. 

 

I think Phil is still on a steep learning curve, the previous owners blog was a pretty good window into the trials and tribulations of running the business, and whilst C&L under Phil's ownership is a much more modest enterprise than Pete's, it's still quite a big job to be getting to grips with.

 

A quick look on his website also reveals 27 shows next year - I doubt there are many trader/manufacturers that do that number, and half probably need the weekend away from home, evena local show probably gets to four days by the time prepping stock, loading the van on a Friday, then unloading and sorting out at show orders on Monday.

 

Jon

 

 

I think a few times I have said the previous method (under Peter) of trading was unsustainable for this niche market, for it to survive it had to go back to its roots as a much smaller operation with far less overheads. I think it is quite normal for small businesses to work from home and I think its common knowledge that the items are spread over 2 locations

 

Yes it is a steep learning curve for Phil and I guess over time the process will be streamlined and much slicker. One thing not mentioned is that quite a lot of the stock arrived very mixed up with badly or incorrectly marked boxes, these have to be sorted and put into a form of order which is made harder where space is at a premium

 

As for the shows, you are correct basically a day is lost before and after the show loading and unloading. Over time this will become slicker once a pattern of trading emerges. Attendance at shows is an important aspect of the trading model, this also evolve so that a wider geographical spread will be achieved.

 

I hope to go and see him over the next 2 weeks and shed some light on the Exactoscale kit components. Phil has some great ideas of how to take the business forward and wants to improve what is on offer, in the short term getting the business working to customer expectations is the main focus. Again any queries please PM me


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#69 Stephen Freeman

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 09:53

I think a few times I have said the previous method (under Peter) of trading was unsustainable for this niche market, for it to survive it had to go back to its roots as a much smaller operation with far less overheads. I think it is quite normal for small businesses to work from home and I think its common knowledge that the items are spread over 2 locations

 

Yes it is a steep learning curve for Phil and I guess over time the process will be streamlined and much slicker. One thing not mentioned is that quite a lot of the stock arrived very mixed up with badly or incorrectly marked boxes, these have to be sorted and put into a form of order which is made harder where space is at a premium

 

As for the shows, you are correct basically a day is lost before and after the show loading and unloading. Over time this will become slicker once a pattern of trading emerges. Attendance at shows is an important aspect of the trading model, this also evolve so that a wider geographical spread will be achieved.

 

I hope to go and see him over the next 2 weeks and shed some light on the Exactoscale kit components. Phil has some great ideas of how to take the business forward and wants to improve what is on offer, in the short term getting the business working to customer expectations is the main focus. Again any queries please PM me

I'm sure that he is slowly getting to grips with it, ordering and paying seems to be much improved but I do question the level of attendance at shows, when he is having to do everything himself.

 

There is the not inconsiderable of cost of stand rental and transport/travel/accommodation to take into account. These costs will have an impact on profitability. Sure, he probably needs to attend some major shows but doing it almost every week is going to take its toll not only in monetary terms but also physical and time. I'm sure that less attendance at shows plus improved e-commerce would be in his best interests. He probably realizes all this and it's just a matter of time before it comes right.


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#70 hayfield

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 20:48

I'm sure that he is slowly getting to grips with it, ordering and paying seems to be much improved but I do question the level of attendance at shows, when he is having to do everything himself.

 

There is the not inconsiderable of cost of stand rental and transport/travel/accommodation to take into account. These costs will have an impact on profitability. Sure, he probably needs to attend some major shows but doing it almost every week is going to take its toll not only in monetary terms but also physical and time. I'm sure that less attendance at shows plus improved e-commerce would be in his best interests. He probably realizes all this and it's just a matter of time before it comes right.

Stephen

 

I am certain Phil will get much slicker with the orders and his ability to increase the speed of assembling them will increase as time goes by

 

In one way you are correct he is looking hard at which shows he attends as in the past he did the smaller shows in the south east and Peter did the rest, over time Phil did most of the shows. He told me he is carefully considering what shows he attends, but only so he can spread his wings into areas not previously covered by C&L, there is a trade off to some extent but show sales are a very important part of the business, plus it allows to talk with customers face to face and of course is his shop window in the hope of new sales. Its not every week and if these shows prove unprofitable they will be dropped

 

I try and keep a stock of what I use to hand and when I see things getting low I order them. This year modelling has been put on the back burner due to building work, in the past I have tried to work out my needs between each show I go to where C&L attend, the biggest gap being Sept through to Jan 



#71 purplepiepete

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 10:52

I am also clearly not the only one who is having ordering problems with C&L. It's obviously a bad time of year for postage and general business availability, however a priority should be basic communication at least. I have now waited a month for an order placed and paid for on the day with no idea if it's waiting, in progress or worse lost in the Xmas post !

 

For people like myself who live in a rural area of Wales the logistics of attending shows , most of which are London/South East based , makes collecting orders a non starter. Having a working website (even one which gives an update) is essential. All my orders are stuck in 'processing' status - even those from months ago.   

 

Clearly expecting the same level of service as the 'old' C&L who employed a number of staff would have been unrealistic. However an excellent website was handed over in the business transition. It's a shame this is not being maintained properly, even if it costs a few quid to employ e-commerce expertise to bring it back to professional standards again. 

 

I wish the new owner luck with the business, however poor communication is just going to exacerbate customer frustration. Clearly a one man business can't be available 24x7, however it's very easy nowadays to provide automated updates and social media interaction. For instance the C&L Facebook page hasn't been updates for years.



#72 chris p bacon

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 13:15

Clearly expecting the same level of service as the 'old' C&L who employed a number of staff would have been unrealistic. However an excellent website was handed over in the business transition. It's a shame this is not being maintained properly, even if it costs a few quid to employ e-commerce expertise to bring it back to professional standards again. 

 

 

Have you called him to discuss ?

 

Just picking up on your quoted point, having been involved in an e-commerce site recently "a few quid" would go nowhere, we were heading towards 5 figures for a fully working site of similar complexity. And even if Phil should employ a professional to update the site he would still have to supply all the relevant stock levels and other information, part of the delay is that at handover much of the stock was just large bags/boxes of unmarked items that needed cataloguing.



#73 purplepiepete

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 17:46

Have you called him to discuss ?

 

Just picking up on your quoted point, having been involved in an e-commerce site recently "a few quid" would go nowhere, we were heading towards 5 figures for a fully working site of similar complexity. And even if Phil should employ a professional to update the site he would still have to supply all the relevant stock levels and other information, part of the delay is that at handover much of the stock was just large bags/boxes of unmarked items that needed cataloguing.

 

Hard to call someone when the business is closed for nearly 3 weeks (according to the website). Which re-iterates my point of having alternative communication available through free to access social media such as Facebook. Agree that everything business related comes at a cost, but it costs nothing other than a quick email to acknowledge your customers. As a whole the website works well for ordering and appears to show stock updates. However it's the communication that's at fault.


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#74 roythebus

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  • LocationNear the 15" gauge and the 5"gauge, far from standard gauge, but 25 miles from Calais.

Posted 31 December 2017 - 01:58

I need to place a quite a big order for about 20 sets of point bits but am reluctant to do so at the moment. I tried phoning several times in the week before christmas but the phone just rang, not even an answering machine message, so a bit disappointed. but what alternative supply is there?



#75 Greenmodelmonkey

Greenmodelmonkey

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 04:25

I need to place a quite a big order for about 20 sets of point bits but am reluctant to do so at the moment. I tried phoning several times in the week before christmas but the phone just rang, not even an answering machine message, so a bit disappointed. but what alternative supply is there?


Errr... None....so perhaps modellers will have to modify their requirements and expectations and may have to revert back to Peco who have introduced some nice new track recently. Depends on what you want really? I model 7mm and still think Peco ready to run track once modified and weathered correctly looks very realistic. I have used C&L/Exactoscale on my layout but the supplied bullhead rail did not fit the chairs properly and resorted to using Peco rails instead. It also ended up being very expensive as the C&L prices sharply increased before the sale of the business and I only had 4 points to build. Good luck with you quest and hope you eventually get what you need!







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