Is this the best time ever for RTR models?

[Chris M]

Now is undoubtley the very best time for R-T-R. I now model in N gauge and today's models are far superior in detail to the OO models of the 60s.

 

As for reliability and robustness I wonder whether people are looking back through nostalgically rose tinted glasses. I well remember spending many hours fiddling with Hornby Dublo motors. Duchess of Montrose, 0-6-2 tank, 2-6-4 tank and Co-Co diesel all had problems. The Trix locos also often had issues. The Western bogies didn't have enough up and down play, the Warship wobbled horribly and the Trans Penine unit motor used to stall but with the lights full on. Triang were more robust as I recall but wheel pick ups caused problems on some and I well remember replacing a number of X04 motors. I also remember the triang E3001 stripping its gears and I'm pretty sure a couple of others had issues.

 

The big problem with today's ready to run is that they are so good. Back in the sixties you could modify a repainted a rtr loco and it would look better than the original. Now it is impossible for most of us to do a repainted that is up to the same standard as the original finish. The result is less modelling of modified and repainted loc which in turn means less satisfaction from your achievements. I wouldn't want to go back to what we had back then though.

[Chris M]

The things we used to do

Triang Hall. Shorten the hugely over long front footplate and bogie. Remove the horrible big moulding for the nameplate, fill it and fit new nameplates. And you could buy a kit to convert it to a modified hall!

To get a Royal Scot. Get a Triang Princess, shorten the boiler by cutting and filling, modify the chassis to a 4-6-0, repaint, add smoke deflectors and hey presto you have a rebuilt Scot.

And wasn't it great when the FlushGlaze products were introduced? Made diesels and coaches look so much better.

Etc, etc.

 

Railway modellers today don't know they're born

[johnarcher]

 

As for those who prefer to make their own locos/stock, either from kits or from scratch (though the kit market is diminishing), they probably don't give a fig about RTR. They just get on (as was the case in the past) with actually making things for themselves. They've probably always been in a minority, anyway.  

True, personally the only fig I give about RTR is if its undoubted higher quality is one reason for the kit market diminishing (along with kit producers of a certain age retiring etc).

I would say they're probably more of a minority now though (thinking back to magazines and shows of 40 or 50 years ago).

(I give a large and pungent fig about the unwelcome fact that I can remember 50-odd years ago)

[manna]

G'Day Gents

 

Today's RTR, Great, but only if there making what you want, if not, some of us are still in the wilderness of making your own, there's not a model of a 'Tender' GNR loco, except the C1 and the O2, and the 02 has mostly LNER fittings and tender.  Ahhh well.

 

manna

[locomad]

I was younger then but we'll remember 1967 too me it was when I started railway modelling seriously, started to build the collection I have now and as well mentioned in previous posts stock purchased in 1967 has lasted and still used now. However recent purchases have an alarming failure rate.

 

It's like anything purchased now it just doesn't last, even the "digital radio" in the railway room failed recently, to be replaced by a VHF 1980's car boot purchase for a £1.

 

Back to railways yes 1967 there was a lack of new RTR's models, one waited ages for mention in the model railway press of a "new" model and great excitement when one was announced, it was not until mid 70's with arrival of airfix and mainline did thing improve.

 

But it didn't stop us modelling, to me it was the "golden age" of kit building, you had wills, k's and gem white metal kits to build, plus well affordable airfix wagons. It was also noticed great improvements in scenery and track with superquick & peco etc, layouts looked better, they ran better.

[Andy Hayter]

Best time ever?  Well up until now I would have to say yes.

 

When I started serious modelling in the late 70s, I really wanted to build a pre-grouping layout.  There was a wealth of locomotive kits available, but I had extreme difficulty making many of them run well (or indeeed at all).  I put this down to my hamfistedness and changed track.  I now realise that in some cases at least it was the quality of the kit as much as my inablity to build the chassis.  

 

Now I can chose a number of pre-grouping prototypes off the shelf - but only if I buy as soon as available and/or pre-order.  That of course is down to planning and budgeting.  Some/most do need to be modified to make them right for period (being based on the current modified prototypes), but that is easy compared with my early attempts at making a working chassis.

 

The dearth now is stock to be hauled by these models.  That however can be covered through kits and scratch building.  Sadly many of the kits and detailing parts that were around have disappeared over time.*  In part the internet still allows access to these bits or more modern equivalents.  Imagine trying to find an illusive part back in the 60s and 70s.  The H&M catalogue was the apparent repository of all available items.  

 

* I have in part been lucky in not disposing of the rolling stock kits I got back then, and so still have  a good stock of kits from these elusive (and now stupidly expensive) makes.

[Barry O]

I have a Black 5, a Jubilee and a Stanier mogul all bashed from Triang Princesses...they will be in the "shop" at Warley..

 

Happy Days

Baz

[Chris M]

I have a Black 5, a Jubilee and a Stanier mogul all bashed from Triang Princesses...they will be in the "shop" at Warley..

 

Happy Days

Baz

Wot - no Royal Scot?

[Mallard60022]

Best time ever?  Well up until now I would have to say yes.

 

When I started serious modelling in the late 70s, I really wanted to build a pre-grouping layout.  There was a wealth of locomotive kits available, but I had extreme difficulty making many of them run well (or indeeed at all).  I put this down to my hamfistedness and changed track.  I now realise that in some cases at least it was the quality of the kit as much as my inablity to build the chassis.  

 

Now I can chose a number of pre-grouping prototypes off the shelf - but only if I buy as soon as available and/or pre-order.  That of course is down to planning and budgeting.  Some/most do need to be modified to make them right for period (being based on the current modified prototypes), but that is easy compared with my early attempts at making a working chassis.

 

The dearth now is stock to be hauled by these models.  That however can be covered through kits and scratch building.  Sadly many of the kits and detailing parts that were around have disappeared over time.*  In part the internet still allows access to these bits or more modern equivalents.  Imagine trying to find an illusive part back in the 60s and 70s.  The H&M catalogue was the apparent repository of all available items.  

 

* I have in part been lucky in not disposing of the rolling stock kits I got back then, and so still have  a good stock of kits from these elusive (and now stupidly expensive) makes.

Ah, the H & M  W & H catalogues. Such elusive and 'expensive' items on page after page. However I seem to remember that it led me to purchase my first loco kit and that was a Wills 94XX to fit on a Triang 0.6.0. chassis. It still works and in fact, when I was laying and wiring C75 track for my present layout, I actually used it to see if it would cope with the LeccyFrog points, crossings and my chaotic wiring; it did! (Apologies Tony, I used Araldite to build the kit as I wasn't allowed to do metalwork at Grammar School. Fact is I shouldn't have been there really as I struggled throughout my years in that priosn like place).

Phil 

Edit to place correct catalogue name....thanks Dudders,

Edited October 17, 2017 by Mallard60022

[Oldddudders]

H&M? Hammant and Morgan? Or do we mean W&H, of West-Central London? If so, I recall 50 years ago visiting to buy a Hruska 2-10-2, then recently described in RM as a “massive hunk of motive power”. None were in stock, of course..... At least I have in recent days been hauled by 2-10-2s, albeit metre-gauge ones, in the Harz.

[Mallard60022]

H&M? Hammant and Morgan? Or do we mean W&H, of West-Central London? If so, I recall 50 years ago visiting to buy a Hruska 2-10-2, then recently described in RM as a “massive hunk of motive power”. None were in stock, of course..... At least I have in recent days been hauled by 2-10-2s, albeit metre-gauge ones, in the Harz.

Sorry, W & H of course. It's my age, honest.

Philth

[Barry O]

Wot - no Royal Scot?

yes but I believe the one I have had a different chassis... and there was a Furness Baltic Tank, and a Scottish Baltic tank - both on Princess chassis..

 

Baz

[Tony Wright]

I have a Black 5, a Jubilee and a Stanier mogul all bashed from Triang Princesses...they will be in the "shop" at Warley..

 

Happy Days

Baz

I'll also be bringing along a Hornby-Dublo 'Marshall' controller, some of the very first Peco Universal points, a Hamblings' Gnat, a CCW wooden coach kit, a Jamieson Lord Nelson, a three-rail Wrenn crossover (complete on its mounting board, at 45/6), plus some other 50 year old bits and pieces. 

 

Have you got my brown lab' coat, please? 

[Andy Hayter]

Sorry, W & H of course. It's my age, honest.

Philth

 

Mine too it seems - at least those of us of a certain age understood what I meant.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...As for reliability and robustness I wonder whether people are looking back through nostalgically rose tinted glasses...

Completely so. Add to your 1967 RTR weaknesses list no-roll wheelsets, gruesome track systems with flaky point motors. Achieving the standards of finescale OO exhibition layouts meant turning your back on RTR, except for a few above average bodies, and going 99% DIY.

 

...The big problem with today's ready to run is that they are so good. Back in the sixties you could modify and repaint a rtr loco and it would look better than the original. Now it is impossible for most of us to do a repaint that is up to the same standard as the original finish....

For this reason I now confine my modelling activity to BR's filthy freight locos and stock, and the saddest and most decayed coaches. Got to play to your weaknesses.

 

...some of us are still in the wilderness of making your own, there's not a model of a 'Tender' GNR loco, except the C1 and the O2, and the O2 has mostly LNER fittings and tender...

A1? But it is a strange gap. Where's something like a J6? Welcome as the O2 is, the 0-6-0 would have been my preference.

[The Johnster]

If this is not the best time ever for RTR it is up among the front runners, but I fear we are on the edge of a downhill slope, as costs (especially Chinese labour) increase, manufacturers run out of viable new projects and are unable to fund reruns of older models as capital becomes restricted, and modellers' demands and expectations increase along with prices.

 

The downside of this from our point of view is that anybody hoping for an RTR release to cover a particular model or livery is more likely to be a) disappointed and b) unable to turn to kits or detailing parts to satisfy his needs as the supply of kits becomes increasingly wobbly, a situation itself partly a reflection of the quality of RTR modelling.  Few of us can build even a good kit to RTR standards, never ming paint and finish it, and few still of us can scratchbuild.

 

Be careful what you wish for!

[Barry O]

So have we all become too reliant on RTR?

 

You can buy parts to improve some RTF offerings and plain black isn't the hardest colour to paint a loco..think Hornby 8F and Comet or brassmasters bits plus a spray can of primer and one of black.

 

If you don't try you will not gain the confidence to do more. The RTF runs of logos and stock may get smaller. This may mean that modeller may have to do a bit more modelling.

 

Or?

 

Baz

[caradoc]

The answer to the question is, without doubt, yes; Because, at this moment in time, more models of more prototypes have been produced than at any time in the past. Although many of them may not be current catalogue items, or available in the shops, innovations such as the internet and associated developments like eBay, and indeed forums such as RMWeb, make searching for, and buying, out of production and secondhand items easier than ever before. 

[Reorte]

So have we all become too reliant on RTR?

 

You can buy parts to improve some RTF offerings and plain black isn't the hardest colour to paint a loco..think Hornby 8F and Comet or brassmasters bits plus a spray can of primer and one of black.

 

If you don't try you will not gain the confidence to do more. The RTF runs of logos and stock may get smaller. This may mean that modeller may have to do a bit more modelling.

 

Or?

I don't think it's fair to blame decent RTR for that. It assumes that in the past people would've turned to kits and repaints, instead of just not doing anything at all.

[Chris M]

I don't think it's fair to blame decent RTR for that. It assumes that in the past people would've turned to kits and repaints, instead of just not doing anything at all.

That sums it up for me. Whilst there is pleasure in making something, unless you are a brilliant modeller it will not be as good as rtr. Of course in some scales you have no choice but to make it yourself. This is one of my efforts. It's ok out in the garden and is reasonably robust but it wouldn't cut the mustard indoors.

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The few survivors prepare to kick the fallen blossoms of the newly extinct triffids aside to board the bus-tram-thing, in search of some lichen.

...The downside of this from our point of view is that anybody hoping for an RTR release to cover a particular model or livery is more likely to be a) disappointed and b) unable to turn to kits or detailing parts to satisfy his needs as the supply of kits becomes increasingly wobbly...

.... Although many of them may not be current catalogue items, or available in the shops, innovations such as the internet and associated developments like eBay, and indeed forums such as RMWeb, make searching for, and buying, out of production and secondhand items easier than ever before. 

Fact is that the long held rumour that a large proportion of kits never got built appears to be true, and it is now easier to search them out. Also assembled loco kits appear fairly regularly, the non-runners - and most are - can be got for less than the price of the wheels at current retail, which makes them a worthwhile source of parts. Between this and sporadic releases from the collect-a-pile division of the RTR hobby, I don't see shortage of supply as any sort of problem for those still keen on a little DIY.

[Barry O]

I don't think it's fair to blame decent RTR for that. It assumes that in the past people would've turned to kits and repaints, instead of just not doing anything at all.

In comparison with 1967 you had a choice if no RTR was available:

1 scratch build it

2 hope there was a kit which approximated to it.build it, paint it,etc

3 hope an RTR item would appear (which may or not be a good replica of the original)

4 do something else

 

Wiĺl there ever be an RTR flatiron? That was my first kit and it still runs on it's modified Triang Jinty chassis

 

 

Baz

Edited October 18, 2017 by Barry O

[plarailfan]

I would say that modelling in the mid 1970's, was something of a toil of a pleasure !

My brand new, Farish N gauge Pannier tank, struggled to propel itself around the layout, all the while sparking like a firework. The Lima 0-4-0 Diesel shunter did run fairly well, but it produced a strange pong and when I picked it up to investigate, the plastic body warped, while at the same time, my thumb aquired a minor burn from the rather hot product.....

One of the guys down the club turned up with a brand new Lima, N gauge Deltic and sent it hurtling along the layout, where it well and truly jammed itself under a bridge !

Fed up with N scale, I went back to OO gauge soon after the Hornby class 25 and Mainline Peak went on sale - the quality of these brought on a new era for modelling standards.

I do think that the hobby itself has changed, as some modellers do have, the financial resources available to build exceptional layouts and also, pay for extra help with wiring, scenery or kitbuilding, etc, while other modellers simply struggle, to afford a home large enough for even a compact layout and so the high quality of some of the, recently built layouts, has surpassed anything produced in the past.

In the old days, everyone just used to pool their skills at the club, but these days there can be a journey of over twenty miles in each direction to the "local" clubrooms and an expensive membership fee to boot !    

[Andy Hayter]

So have we all become too reliant on RTR?

 

You can buy parts to improve some RTF offerings and plain black isn't the hardest colour to paint a loco..think Hornby 8F and Comet or brassmasters bits plus a spray can of primer and one of black.

 

If you don't try you will not gain the confidence to do more. The RTF runs of logos and stock may get smaller. This may mean that modeller may have to do a bit more modelling.

 

Or?

 

Baz

 

There may well be another factor at work here.  I certainly think it applies to me.

 

When I started serious modelling I could look forward to 45 maybe 50 years modelling.  The time taken to scratch build a coach or build a locomotive kit had no real significance.  

Now 37 years or so further on I can look forward to maybe 20 years modelling (actuarially speaking and hoping that the faculties hold out that long).  So if something rtr comes along that fits my themes then that means I have an opportunity to fill a gap and not consume valuable modelling time.  For me it is not substituting making things with a cheque book but it does allow me to make other things that are not available and never likely to be.

[GeoffAlan]

Some of my locos and rolling stock dates back to about then! To me, the main differences seem to be:-

1. Detail today is so much better. In N gauge we get RTR models with the kind of detail OO models have been showing for over 20 years, and you can, if you wish, run DCC and Sound in N!

2. Price, while we all hate to pay 'over the odds' for our models, in real terms adjusted for inflation, I feel modern locos are the same or maybe little more than I paid when I started N gauge in 1975.

3. Reliability! This is a difficult one in that modern models are more reliable 'from the box' than I remember in the late 1970s. But, if a modern loco doesn't run out of the box, other than wiggling the DCC plug there's little you can do to fix it without potentially voiding the warranty. Back in the 1970s it was a simple enough job to disassemble the loco and test connections and contacts until you found what had failed. I remember re-soldering a few dry joints on GF locos and adjusting quite a few pick ups to get reliable running but I never had to return a new loco as a none runner back then (Out of probably 20 purchases). However recently I have had a bad run of purchases, having returned 4 locos so far this year (out of a dozen purchases) as none runners. Last year I had a slightly lower percentage of returns from a slightly higher number of purchases. I regard this as a run of bad luck, rather than an accurate reflection of new built reliability.