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Is this the best time ever for RTR models?


Barry O
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...So if something rtr comes along that fits my themes then that means I have an opportunity to fill a gap and not consume valuable modelling time...

Certainly not alone in that. It's the guessing game of what will 'never' get a RTR model that I have yet to become expert at. DP1 J50  K3  N7  O1  Slowing down does have some advantages. The manufacturers have got their announcements out before I actually started on several in recent years; though I am glad I persisted on the class 21 which I had only just begun when Dapol announced availability for 2009. So far spared effort on A2, Stirling Single, C1, D16/3, K1 and class 23, and renewal of mechanism on the J15.

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While you are right regarding locomotives what is largely missing from the manufacturers' future promises is rolling stock.  Maybe that will change, but as has been posted before the work required to produce a coach is pretty much the same as for a locomotive, but the sales price is 1/3rd to 1/2.  The return for the manufacturer is therefore so much less and he has to sell many more.  I think for now I am on a safe wicket making coaches and wagons.

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While you are right regarding locomotives what is largely missing from the manufacturers' future promises is rolling stock.  Maybe that will change, but as has been posted before the work required to produce a coach is pretty much the same as for a locomotive, but the sales price is 1/3rd to 1/2.  The return for the manufacturer is therefore so much less and he has to sell many more.  I think for now I am on a safe wicket making coaches and wagons.

Although the manufacturer should hopefully expect to sell many more, even on a model with shortened trains the locomotives : stock ratio is well in to the stock's favour (well multiple units aside of course).

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To jump back in, I hope this is OK, I have a large number of Union Mills locos. Details are more 1970s than 2010s, but they are very reliable, will pull more than a prototypical maximum load and the range covers a good many models available nowhere else. Value for money is excellent IMHO but you have to order by telephone as he seems to have little (Or possibly zero) online presence.

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I think most modellers want a) to have the most realistic models that they can possibly achieve within their capabilities and b) to have a consistent standard of modelling throughout, and that this has always been the case.  In 1967 there were a few RTR models tolerable by the standards of the day, and a lot of terrible ones (Hornby Dublo couldn't even manage scale length for coaches or many locos), and some kits available that could be made into equally tolerable models but all too often weren't.  This was the environment in which modellers operated, except for a few gifted scratchbuilders.  Condition a) was aspirational for most of us and b) was achievable if you were happy to accept that the consistent standard was not high.

 

In 2017 there is a plethora of highly detailed, realistic, well finished, and scale RTR that runs properly, the kit trade is to all intents and purposes dead in the water, and condition a) is within the capacity of anyone who can open a box.  Condition b) is a given.

 

We have never had it so good, and, for the money, probably never will again!

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That sums it up for me. Whilst there is pleasure in making something, unless you are a brilliant modeller it will not be as good as rtr. Of course in some scales you have no choice but to make it yourself. This is one of my efforts. It's ok out in the garden and is reasonably robust but it wouldn't cut the mustard indoors.

 

attachicon.gifIMG_3586.JPG

 

attachicon.gifIMG_3584.JPG

 

Nice train and railway, however in the second photo you have a serious issue with petals (and the odd leaf) on the line, and clearly need a weedkiller train to spray the lineside vegetation !

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Although the manufacturer should hopefully expect to sell many more, even on a model with shortened trains the locomotives : stock ratio is well in to the stock's favour (well multiple units aside of course).

 

In some cases I would agree - BR standard coaches for example - but in others maybe not.  How many sets of SECR Birdcage coaches do you expect will be sold versus the number of C class locos in SECR livery?  My guess is one set per loco sale or maybe on average just a bit above.  So that is 3 lots of carriage research, CADs, tooling etc selling at around or a bit above the current price of an 0-6-0 tender loco. 

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I don't think it's fair to blame decent RTR for that. It assumes that in the past people would've turned to kits and repaints, instead of just not doing anything at all.

 

I agree, I think it is easy to blame RTR for the demise of kits etc and while I think there is certainly a lot to that I also think that good RTR has created it's own market and that many people in the hobby would never have made kits. I've never really been into rolling stock kits and in my case RTR models have made not a bit of difference to the rolling stock kits I haven't bought.

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I agree, I think it is easy to blame RTR for the demise of kits etc and while I think there is certainly a lot to that I also think that good RTR has created it's own market and that many people in the hobby would never have made kits. I've never really been into rolling stock kits and in my case RTR models have made not a bit of difference to the rolling stock kits I haven't bought.

I think I suggested the prevalence of RTR is just one factor in the weakening of the kit trade, there are doubtless others.

You may be right about creating its own market, maybe the hobby is bigger than it was overall (I don't know), but it is surely a fact that it could support bigger ranges of kits and bits in the past than it does now, so that bit of it presumably has shrunk.

I hope 'demise' of kits and them being 'dead in the water' is overstatement, there's still some around (or I wouldn't have come back to the hobby at all), with a bit of luck they'll last my time.

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A twisted and cynical person might suggest that it'd be worthwhile for manufacturers to produce as much new tooling as they can now, whilst a retired demographic have funds available, each with the minimum run required to cover the investment, so that as market size shrinks in the future they can rerun said models on rotation without paying much in the way of tooling/set up costs and there is still plenty of unsatiated demand for them. Plus in the meantime the high standards of RTR and availability of obscure prototypes has killed off kit producing cottage industries and deskilled the market to make them RTR dependent.

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I feel since the millennium, Hornby and others seemed to change objectives and listen more to demands for a certain model. some magazines started polling modelers for various subjects like wagons and locos etc. This has led to a great diversity models and where some models are duplicated different solutions to how they are powered. I think we as modelers have a power which we have to be aware of always. We have the power to decide if a model is a success or a failure as we do also with kit makers choosing a product or not. If we can support both sides rtr and model kits we should keep the diversity we have had for years to come. 

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A twisted and cynical person might suggest that it'd be worthwhile for manufacturers to produce as much new tooling as they can now, whilst a retired demographic have funds available, each with the minimum run required to cover the investment, so that as market size shrinks in the future they can rerun said models on rotation without paying much in the way of tooling/set up costs and there is still plenty of unsatiated demand for them. Plus in the meantime the high standards of RTR and availability of obscure prototypes has killed off kit producing cottage industries and deskilled the market to make them RTR dependent.

Not cynical at all; They'll be daft if they aren't either doing so already or planning to do so in the near future.

 

As for the last bit; the loss of cottage industry producers is cyclical and a lot of the people who have been doing it for many years, who we've come to regard as "part of the scenery" (in a good way) within the hobby, have reached an age at which retirement is beckoning, if not applying quite intense pressure.

 

Not all manage to find buyers for their businesses and not all those that do pass into new ownership continue to thrive. OK the arrival of highly detailed, largely accurate and well finished r-t-r won't have helped the transition process, but it's not the primary cause; that is anno domini.  

 

John

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I agree, I think it is easy to blame RTR for the demise of kits etc and while I think there is certainly a lot to that I also think that good RTR has created it's own market and that many people in the hobby would never have made kits. I've never really been into rolling stock kits and in my case RTR models have made not a bit of difference to the rolling stock kits I haven't bought.

Whereas all the 4mm kits and bits, and anciliaries like books and drawings, that I purchase are only because there is decent RTR OO product. Had I gone with my initial thoughts of HO, most likely North American, the sole UK manufacturing beneficiary would have been Peco.

 

Now this is not the same as saying that RTR has no effect on the kit suppliers, just that the effect may be different from a simple 'stomp them out of existence'. I haven't bought a new complete loco kit since circa 1976 for example, just before my 'midlife break' from railway modelling. But rolling stock, whereas in my 'build every loco yourself' phase I might buy one or two kits of a type - because the restriction on the size of operation I could build was limited by the locos - now I'll have ten, to supply the many trains required to run behind my sixty odd main line RTR locos.

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There may well be another factor at work here.  I certainly think it applies to me.

 

When I started serious modelling I could look forward to 45 maybe 50 years modelling.  The time taken to scratch build a coach or build a locomotive kit had no real significance.  

Now 37 years or so further on I can look forward to maybe 20 years modelling (actuarially speaking and hoping that the faculties hold out that long).  So if something rtr comes along that fits my themes then that means I have an opportunity to fill a gap and not consume valuable modelling time.  For me it is not substituting making things with a cheque book but it does allow me to make other things that are not available and never likely to be.

Wise words.........

 

Where decent RTR items are available (as is mainly the case today), which require just a little 'tweaking' to bring them up to a more realistic appearance (detailing/weathering/changing couplings, etc - Bachmann Mk. 1s, for instance), then the sensible thing to do is buy them (writing cheques?) and use the time saved for making what's necessary which isn't available RTR (the Mk.1s which Bachmann doesn't make for instance). However, it still requires modelling ability, not just the ability to write cheques, so you're definitely not doing any substituting. 

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I think it was about 1975 that I got into "scale" modelling, that is I either got other people to build kits for me, or I built them myself. All in 00 of course, and relatively crude, in fact most of my locos had no brake gear. But the RTR at the time was diabolical - I can't come up with a better word that isn't actually swearing. So I had a massive incentive, and if I'd been a little bolder (or good friends with someone a bit more skilful) I'd have probably taken to P4 and gone the whole 9 yards, Eventually, unable to decide between P4 and EM, I cut the Gordian knot by moving into 7mm scale.

 

Nowadays with the quality of RTR available, and Peco making bullhead track (ye gods!) I would almost certainly stay with RTR 4mm, if I was that age again. I doubt I would even try to build a loco kit, and even wagon kits would be a whole lot less tempting.

 

That's my frank assessment. But my niggling doubt remains about the robustness of modern RTR. For those who change their scenario every couple of years this will be no problem. But for those of us who basically stick to one location or period, I foresee difficulties. 

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Answer to the OP question: Yes.

 

(snip)

Some recent RTR locos are almost impossible to get into for servicing/attention. Too many I've had through my hands in the last two years have motors which have failed. It would appear they are nowhere near as robust as motors of yore. 

 (snip)

I agree re some models accessibility, I've come across this myself.

 

I wonder about the motors however. I don't doubt Tony sees plenty of sick ones but I've had a good number of primarily RTR stock through my hands over the past years, far more RTR than kit in the past twenty. Interestingly I've only had one motor failure, very recently a Bachmann 57xx which are very old school in their design, and one of the poles failed resulting in uneven and rough running in one direction. I got a replacement motor from a friend in the trade. There have been a few well known examples eg the first Heljan Claytons, but on various forums/internet you don't often find consistent comments about motor failures. I have my concerns that when they do fail, there's a real lack of replacements available (not just motors), but I'm not sure there's a general lack of robustness in motors throughout the RTR field.

Edited by PMP
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... my niggling doubt remains about the robustness of modern RTR. For those who change their scenario every couple of years this will be no problem. But for those of us who basically stick to one location or period, I foresee difficulties. 

I wore out the split chassis product in about six years of operation, all the plating essential to conduction worn to the extent that pick up became insufficient for reliable operation. (I operate above all else!) The only other such report I recall is from a contributor here regarding the Ormesby Hall display layout operation, wearing out a Bach split chassis A4 from the same cause, in about 2 years of daily multi-hour running throughput the season. Most people just don't run their models anything like this intensively.

 

The same treatment given to the better OO locos from China with steel axle wheelsets and wiper pick ups has yet to produce a wear out failure. That's coming up to seventeen years in on two Bachmann WD 2-8-0s, and these are ballasted to near twice the weight they came out of the factory. Shaking the carbon dust out of motors which start making 'scratchy' noises after a dozen years operation 'fixes' that problem. RTR Rolling stock on pinpoints running in plastic, no excessive wear evident. I suspect the RTR manufacturers may be thinking now that a slightly less durable product might have been a good plan...

Edited by 34theletterbetweenB&D
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G'day Gents

 

Still running a Dublo N2, and have  at least six Dublo/Wrenn 0-6-0's running, some of them are getting quite old now, but still give the new stuff a run for there money.

 

manna

Good point. Locos that run reliably are worth a great deal more on a layout than locos that look good but prove to be what our American cousins refer to as a ‘roundhouse queen’. Some of us just wanna run trains. Others buy and admire, but don’t/can’t have a layout. Neither group is wrong.
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I have never modelled the steam era in OO (apart from some recent, nostalgic purchases of IOW Terriers and 02's, due to having lived there in my very early yoof). But I "inherited" (my father and brother had lost interest) Triang steam Jinty and Princess Elizabeth plus Grafar (or Wrenn?) SR coaches, and several wagons, when I was about 8. My dad had barely started a layout based on Ryde pier I think, when we had to move. So at the new house, I built an L-shaped layout and then an eight by four layout on an old plywood base that my dad's office had thrown out. They were both rubbish, as the locos would stall frequently for no apparent reason but especially on almost every point, and I seemed to spend half the time pulling fluff out of their mechanisms and cleaning the track. I only really enjoyed making the scenery, from the odd plastic and cardboard kit and lots of home made stuff.

 

It was boring and all were part-exchanged at Beatties, New Southgate, for some N gauge track, some Peco modern wagons and a few other bits, so I could build a layout around my tiny, box-room bedroom. But I could not model my main interest, the ECML (my local station was Oakleigh Park, where I would spend hours with a frustrated border collie, waiting for Deltics and Brush 31's to roar through), so I could only model whatever Anbrico kits were available, my best attempt being a Class 50, on an Arnold chassis, Did I enjoy it? I enjoyed building the kits, painting them, and making them work, But did I enjoy building the layout and running them? Not really, not after a while. I sold the lot to buy a Honda 90 in the end.

 

A bit later, I accidentally hooked up with someone (my landlady) who was into trains, and with a number of other people, we built a few continental layouts in N gauge, that really floated my boat, and exhibited them several times. But she moved abroad, and I gave that up for real life.

 

Suddenly. MTK started to bring out 00 kits of things that I might really want to model - I had moved on by then to things Southern Electric, but DMU's would do too, due to my life having moved south of the river. I must have spent a small fortune at shows both buying the kits and then all the paraphernelia needed to build, motorise, detail and paint them. The results were appalling. I blamed myself and lost interest.

 

Then, I guess in the late 90's or early 2000's, RTR started to appear in 00 that seemed to fit what I wanted to build, in the form of Class 33's and 73's, and then later in the 4 CEP and so on. My interest re-emerged, combined with my ability to afford such things, a happy coincidence. But without these, perhaps I would never have bothered. I built a small roundy, roundy about 18 years ago, and whilst it entertained my daughter, her friends and many of their fathers (especially when I had added sound to a few), it was not what I wanted. So I just kept collecting in the hope that one day, I could build that layout, of somewhere I actually worked, and only two more outstanding models (one now announced, the other for which I have found a way to kit bash) remain to complete the stock. On the small test track I now have, virtually all the stock runs freely, with little attention, whether chipped or not, and that on its own has energised me. I am now close to building that layout, but only RTR in the end has given me the spur to get there.

 

Conversely, I have also developed a strange addiction to narrow gauge steam, again due to accidental stages of my life, and have built two garden layouts at 16mm / ft scale, in two of my gardens, and am now well along to building the largest I have ever built where I have settled here. But, apart from locos, almost everything has to be kit built or scratch built, something at which I have become quite adept in this scale.

 

So, for me, RTR expansion in 00 was a godsend, but it was the range, not particularly the quality, that sent me back (although I have since replaced what I perceive to be lower quality models with higher quality ones). I still build many rolling stock kits, primarily Cambrian, but I would never attempt a kit or scratch build 33 or 73, or, after the MTK debacle, any EMU (although I have built a Southern Pride EMU kit). But that has not put me off doing much more kit building in a larger gauge, where fidelity is far less important to me.

 

In summary, kits actually put me off, because in my case, I was no good at making a poor kit do what I wanted (unlike some of our esteemed colleagues on here), but better RTR brought me back. That may make me a bad person in some people's eyes, but, in my book, it suggests we have never had it so good.

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I'd say yes to the OP's question, without doubt there is so much good stuff available now across the scales and gauges which only twenty years ago we'd have been astounded at. As an example, look at how many R-T-R 7mm diesels we have from Heljan, not all are 100% accurate I know, but the fact that they're available is a jolly good thing and has no doubt been a springboard for many to take up the larger scale with relative ease. Hornby and Bachmann's range of quality coaching stock in 4mm is a vast improvement over what we could buy in the '70s and early '80s.

 

I think a happy side effect of the upsurge in investment, finesse and quality from the manufacturers is that large numbers of modellers have upped their own game by improving their skills when it comes to scenery, buildings and other non railway items, and overall we seem much more appreciative and open to the techniques used by military modellers than perhaps a few years ago.

 

Whether or not we're already at or approaching 'peak quality' I don't know.

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A wills flatiron.. original Triang Jinty chassis, wills bogie and Jackson wheels...

 

post-7650-0-98446900-1508842220_thumb.jpg

 

will this be an RTR model one day?

 

I would have said no but some of the RTR items appearing in the last ten years does make me wonder.

 

Baz

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A wills flatiron.. original Triang Jinty chassis, wills bogie and Jackson wheels...

The only Flatiron in town. And if it ran at all well the owner/builder would have been suitably chuffed. Imperfect, approximated, a bit short on detail, yet a Flatiron and no mistake. Now we have apoplectic online responses to relatively trivial imperfections on RTR models, some even from those who would not buy a perfect version anyway. ‘We’ are hard to please, it seems, and bashing manufacturers and commissioners has become a new sport.

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