45440

[neilkirby]

Hi,

 

Don't know if anyone here can help, but I have just bought a 2nd Hornby black 5 which I want to re-number as 45440 in early 50's livery. Problem is, looking at my references I see it is still lettered "British Railways" in a photo in what the caption claims is November '53, but another photo said to be December '52 shows the early crest with no lining. then by June '55 another photo shows in with the early crest but now lined. Clearly something is wrong with the caption dates, but what is proving difficult to work out? Considering how much the S&D was being photographed back then, this locomotive seems quite elusive! Would a loco have been repainted twice within 3 years back then? Any help much appreciated.

 

PS As an aside when I was doing my 7Fs i put together a little spreadsheet showing the dates of the various liveries on them all. Would this be of use to others? how about a team effort to expand this into all S&D allocated locos?

 

Neil

[petethemole]

Ivo Peters' The Somerset and Dorset in the Fifties has a 'train in landscape' shot (113) dated 12/07/1952 with large logo just visible, but due to the distance and lighting it's impossible to tell if it was lined.

[pH]

I think I found the two earliest photos you're referring to. Is there any chance of a tender swap between those two dates?

[CarriageShed]

PS As an aside when I was doing my 7Fs i put together a little spreadsheet showing the dates of the various liveries on them all. Would this be of use to others? how about a team effort to expand this into all S&D allocated locos?

 

Hi Neil

 

I've also collated a little info on S&D locos:

http://www.ngauge.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesS&D/locomotives.htm

 

I model 1930, so my data focuses on the pre-nationalisation period. Feel free to copy anything for a shared database.

 

Peter

[bécasse]

45440 acquired that number in August 1948, which is consistent with the tender receiving the "BRITISH RAILWAYS" logo. I don't know the shopping dates for that loco, although someone probably does, but it seems unlikely that black 5 would have run for more than three years without a significant overhaul during which the loco, and tender, would have been repainted. Three years would have been up in August 1951, strongly suggesting that the photo captioned as November 1953 was wrong, November 1950 would be more likely IF the photo was consistent with one taken on a November day. Photos dated 1952 showing the tender with the early logo but unlined, and 1955 with the early logo now lined, seem potentially OK.

 

Tender swops are possible but there doesn't seem to be an obvious reason as the the loco was at Bath Green Park throughout the period, presumably on much the same duties.

[bike2steam]

45440 was 'shopped' 5 times in the 7 years 1950-6, but kept the same tender (9676) all her life - or so it sez in the Irwell book. So temporary tender swapping could've gone on. Trouble is BGP allocated Black 5's were more often than not used on north bound workings so there's not very much photography going on as most photographers headed south thereof.

[neilkirby]

I did note that she has a different (or modifed) boiler between the lined and the unlined photograph.  There is a thing (lubricator?)  on the left-hand rear end of the smokebox. on the unlined photo it is above the handrail and on the lined photo it is below the handrail. I don't know if this detail would help date the photos?

 

Becasse, you have thrown me further into bewilderment because I was thinking, like you, the 'British Railways' comes first but then I had assumed that the lined version was next (similar to 44839) and then finally the unlined. 

 

Neil

 

[bécasse]

 

I did note that she has a different (or modifed) boiler between the lined and the unlined photograph.  There is a thing (lubricator?)  on the left-hand rear end of the smokebox. on the unlined photo it is above the handrail and on the lined photo it is below the handrail. I don't know if this detail would help date the photos?

 

Becasse, you have thrown me further into bewilderment because I was thinking, like you, the 'British Railways' comes first but then I had assumed that the lined version was next (similar to 44839) and then finally the unlined. 

 

 

Two issues there, firstly, changes of livery normally coincided with shopping so concurrent changes to the detailed appearance of any loco are to be expected, and, secondly, I believe that it was usually the case that the application of lining to mixed-traffic locos was initially more miserly than was later the case, but there were certainly cases where it was the other way round, individual works seem to have "bent" or interpreted the rules to suit themselves - try looking at reliably dated photos of other black fives to get a better feel as to which came first.

[Steamport Southport]

I would hazard a guess at the 1953 date being wrong and is before the 1952 photograph.

 

I believe that the BRITISH RAILWAYS livery was short lived and was painted over quite quickly. It's surprisingly late for a locomotive renumbered in August 1948 to receive it as that was the date that the early crest was introduced. If it was repainted at that date then it should also have received full lining.

 

I reckon it was a shed job, with the transfer being applied by shed staff. Probably the reason why it's not lined, which would have needed a visit to the paint shop.

 

 

 

Jason

[bécasse]

Ex-LMS lines aren't my primary interest so I don't have many readily accessible photos of Black Fives - unless I go hunting through magazines. However the photos I could quickly find suggest that most (if not all) of the class whose tenders received the "BRITISH RAILWAYS" lettering (which inevitably would only have been a small proportion of the total) were lined. I couldn't quickly find any photos which were definitively taken in the late 40s or very early 50s, but several emerged captioned as having been taken in 1953 which showed the locos/tenders depicted as unlined (with the large version early crest).

 

There is an interesting photo of 45088 at New Street on page 664 of the current (November) Backtrack which shows the loco still hauling a tender with the old large crest and lining and which is captioned, almost certainly correctly, as having been taken in August 1962. This was very late for an active loco to still have the large crest on its tender, almost certainly indicating a full overhaul in winter 1956-57 just before the application of the later crest became universal and showing that lining was being applied at that date. I think that 45088 was probably always (at least in BR days) a 17A loco, so the overhaul had probably been at Derby, livery changes tending to be applied by some works earlier or later than others.

[neilkirby]

Thanks for all the advice, from which I have gone with early emblem with No lining, cost me a bit though. I bought the loco profile book and supplement and realised my Hornby black 5 was the wrong version, so got another 2nd hañď one