Branch Line fiddle yard design

[howardb]

I am working on a fiddle yard design using CAD so would appreciate a review by all you experts. The station is a small two track line in the Elham valley & I am trying to get the best of both worlds - a roundy round plus the ability to operate it as a point to point layout with trains changing direction in the yard.

 

My main concern is the use of a double slip at the entrance to the yard in both directions. Fiddle yard track will be Peco OO

 

 

 

 

 

 

[imt]

I looked at this yesterday and thought "I'm not sure what he's after or why it's like that".  The absence of replies may mean that others feel as confused as I am.

 

My initial reaction would be cut the turntable and buy a couple of Peco loco lifts if you want to lift/turn loco's in a fiddle yard.  If you don't like their femmer sides use some strip wood to replace it with - 40/50mm by 3mm does nicely - it's a push fit so everything is very sturdy.  I can understand a turntable on a layout - excellent scenic feature, especially if you can make it work effectively - but not in a fiddle yard as it becomes very fiddly!!

 

I can see that you want some roundy roundy tracks - good idea if only for testing, I don't have room and have to put a circle down in the dining room on occasions.

 

It looks as if you are going to have trains coming in, stopping, being reversed buy moving the loco front to back or by attaching a new for it to go out in the way it came in.  That is to say your through station is going to appear to be between two separate fiddle yards, with the option of bypassing that sometimes.

 

Whats the problem with double slips?  I have 2 and they work fine.

 

Do I have this right?  If so what exactly do you want to discuss - the number of roads, the way to control them ......

Edited October 19, 2017 by imt

[Echo]

My comment would be that the turntable link to the main lines is very tortuous. Why not have a TT at each end connected directly to the main lines just ooutside the double slips. That way you could drive locos straight off the TT into the departure sidings.

[Oldddudders]

Small branch lines may occasionally be double track, but Clapham Junction they are not. The Elham Valley, like most rural outposts, had limited, gentle service. Your proposed yards would serve a much greater and more timetable-conscious layout.

[howardb]

Thanks for all the comments. My real concern is the throat design at the entrance to the yard as my experience using double slips (not Peco I should make clear) has resulted in a lot of derailment problems.

 

I hadn't considered using loco lifts - there is a stock lift at the bottom of the drawing (the length of line surrounded by a purple box) which will take three carriages and a tank engine - but I will have a close look at loco lifts at the end of most of the lines as this would be much easier to operate than the complex controls required for automatically moving the engines around the trains.

 

The number of lines in the yard is matched to the service on the line. On a normal day there were 12 services which require a reasonable amount of stock & from the timetable this required at least three carriage sets.

 

The 4 no red lines are for the daily passenger services - 2 x 3 car birdcage stock pulled by H Class tanks, a separate shuttle service Dover/Elham which only runs first thing in the morning. This was a steam railcar originally, but by the mid 20's this had been swapped for separate carriages. In the absence of any records I plan to use the P class with a two coach push pull service. I may use the final line for the odd light engine movement or Wickham trolley (a recent Southern Way article shows that the Elham valley line was the first SR line to use them, but unfortunately there are no photos)

 

The 2 no blue lines are for the up and down goods which are likely to have quite different composition. The up service will collect sheep from the local market loading bay which, unusually, is located on the main up line about 200 m before the station itself. The up service will also include the coal deliveries. The down service will usually include the horse boxes since the horse bay can only be accessed easily from the down line.

 

The 2 no green lines are for two typical specials that regularly operated. The passenger specials were 5/6 coaches long and sometimes included a Pullman car pulled by a 4-4-0 D1 or similar, but just as important to this line were the annual sheep sales when a dedicated train of cattle trucks would collect the sheep. Records show that this could be more than 40 trucks long, but I will make do with the 20 or so that will fit in the fiddle yard.

 

The suggestion of a second turntable is a very sensible idea,  but not possible due to space restrictions. I will probably keep the single turntable shown, but mainly for engine storage

 

Cheers

 

Howard

[Satan's Goldfish]

Looking to the prototype, would trailing crossings each end of the fiddle yard be a better option operationally? At the moment it's facing crossings, if you cross a train over to the opposite line then decide you actually want it still travelling the same way then you're a bit stuck. Trailing crossings at each end would means 1 direction for arrivals, but 2 for departures.

[howardb]

Many thanks for the ideas and I have modified the fiddle yard design considerably based on your suggestions. Here is my final plan which shows the complete layout

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chimer]

I note you haven't taken up the diabolical fish's suggestion about reversing the crossovers - to my mind a very good point, and something I've never consciously thought about, but will from now on, so thanks SG.

 

It would be a pain to amend your plan, but I don't think it would cost you any length on the loops.

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[Peter Kazmierczak]

If you're using loco lifts, I don't see the point of the complex turntable and sidings arrangement to be honest. Locos would have to go briefly onto the scenic section to get to the southern-most sidings

 

Better to use it for cassette storage.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Peter Kazmierczak

[The Johnster]

I'm not sure about the turntable either; it only seems accessible from the 'outer' circuit of track with no simple access to roads feeding the 'inner' circuit.

[DCB]

I think it would benefit from more roads or longer roads off the turntable and forget the cassettes.  You can never have too much loco storage and modern RTR and elderly Kit built locos don't take kindly to being handled and seldom survive falling from a cassette onto the cold hard linoleum or your soft warm foot.

I would try to operate so locos from the down side can can access the turntable via the upside roads from the left hand end rather than popping out into the scenic area at the right hand end.   I would have have tried to get one more through road on the up side for a loco line to facilitate this.

Using the old Hornby Dublo "Railers" or a home made version on the end of a couple of roads would facilitate changing stock

[howardb]

I didn't fully understand SG's suggestion at first but have looked at it again and unfortunately the overall effect is to reduce the fiddle yard length of all the loops by some 290mm, so a good idea but not suitable for my application

 

The main service on the line was by H class tanks plus C / O class for the goods trains. P class, D/E/L class appear to have been used on specials and there is also a picture of a River Tank! However during emergencies when the lines at Folkestone Warren or Smeeth were closed trains were diverted through the Elham Valley, which gives me an excuse for an occasional running of Schools / King Arthurs. 

 

The loco lifts are for the H class tanks which run most of the services, and any other engines will use the turntable. Its not ideal but it allows me to reduce handling. I agree that the roads from the turntable need to be as long & as many as possible & this will be finalised after I sort out the turntable.  The scenic area will be tweaked to ensure that the engines do not appear on stage ....

 

Cheers

 

Howard

[Chimer]

I didn't fully understand SG's suggestion at first but have looked at it again and unfortunately the overall effect is to reduce the fiddle yard length of all the loops by some 290mm, so a good idea but not suitable for my application

 

The main service on the line was by H class tanks plus C / O class for the goods trains. P class, D/E/L class appear to have been used on specials and there is also a picture of a River Tank! However during emergencies when the lines at Folkestone Warren or Smeeth were closed trains were diverted through the Elham Valley, which gives me an excuse for an occasional running of Schools / King Arthurs. 

 

The loco lifts are for the H class tanks which run most of the services, and any other engines will use the turntable. Its not ideal but it allows me to reduce handling. I agree that the roads from the turntable need to be as long & as many as possible & this will be finalised after I sort out the turntable.  The scenic area will be tweaked to ensure that the engines do not appear on stage ....

 

Cheers

 

Howard

 

It doesn't need to.  Here are the two designs - your original below, the one with the crossovers reversed on top.  The loops are identical, just shifted left a bit.

 

 

So it is possible - and, I think, better.

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[Satan's Goldfish]

Beaten too it! Was going to add, just mirror image the plan to make them trailing.

[howardb]

Chimer and SG.

 

Thanks for your ideas and I needed to redraw the fiddle yards before replying. The dead end sidings are shown the wrong orientation on the "original" layout sketch but this has no effect on the dimensions

 

As you will see from the drawing below, based on the suggestion by SG the fiddle yard lines are about 25mm shorter than the original design however by moving point "A" off the main board onto the lift off section across the door, it gains about 200-250mm by allowing the point to form the first part of the curve . This is worthwhile even though I will need to be very careful in the construction and location dowels for the removable section.

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I would opt for a much simpler solution, although it depends a bit on the sort of operation you envisage.

 

Two through roads in the centre. Dead-end sidings either side with trailing crossovers for reversed trains. Less pointwork and longer roads.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Could also replace the point leading to the turntable with another double slip to move everything right one point length and gain more space.