Lecorbusier Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Hi, I am currently researching trackwork and rodding connection for modelling a midland crossover and single slip at Monsal Dale station circa 1902. Would anyone be able to advise what the stretcher bar layout would have been on a typical trailing turnout for this period and how the main bar would have connected to the final crank on the point rodding run. I have examples of other railways (GWR) but not for the Midland. Any diagrams, pictures or examples modelled would be much appreciated, as currently I have pretty much drawn a blank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 I am not sure that the rodding was connected to the stretcher rod on the Midland. The few photos I have found suggest that the rodding was connected directly to the nearest point blade. I suspect the rodding went under the stock rail and the point blade then curved round and up 180 degrees to be bolted to the point blade slightly further away from the tip than the stretcher bar. Unfortunately the only good photos I have seen show points operated by hand levers, e.g. Midland Wagons vol 2 introduction page (very clear) and Midland Railway Portrait plate 107. Circumstantial evidence that this also applied to points operated from signal boxes is that no stretcher rod ever seems to have anything attached to it in photos (other than the point blades!). Plate 156 in Midland railway Portrait is a very clear photo illustrating this point (sorry for the pun). Also the only MR drawing of a stretcher rod is just a plain rod with no indication that any operating mechanism was attached to it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 I am not sure that the rodding was connected to the stretcher rod on the Midland. The few photos I have found suggest that the rodding was connected directly to the nearest point blade. I suspect the rodding went under the stock rail and the point blade then curved round and up 180 degrees to be bolted to the point blade slightly further away from the tip than the stretcher bar. Unfortunately the only good photos I have seen show points operated by hand levers, e.g. Midland Wagons vol 2 introduction page (very clear) and Midland Railway Portrait plate 107. Circumstantial evidence that this also applied to points operated from signal boxes is that no stretcher rod ever seems to have anything attached to it in photos (other than the point blades!). Plate 156 in Midland railway Portrait is a very clear photo illustrating this point (sorry for the pun). Also the only MR drawing of a stretcher rod is just a plain rod with no indication that any operating mechanism was attached to it. Thanks Echo ... very interesting and thanks for the image references .... luckily I have both volumes. I attach an image of the switch blades to a 3 way turn out at Butterly, which is one of the things which has got me puzzling and a little muddled. If I describe what I think I am looking at perhaps the muddle will become apparent. To the left hand side of the image there appear to be two stretcher bars. The rear one appears to be attached to the front switch blade and I think is a simple stretcher bar. The front one appears to house through the front blades and in to the rear blades. This bar has a bolt connection at the centre and would appear to connect to an actuation rod running beneath switch blades and stock rail. (may be required for more complex formations ... or may be a late addition -but if so is there evidence of how it might have been actuated previously? To the right of the image we the front of the leading switch blades (not sure if this is the right terminology but hopefully it is clear what I mean). Quite clearly hear we have the single blade 180 degree actuation connection you describe. However I am confused that on the far switch blade there appears to be a vacant fixing hole in line with this connection? If we now move to what appears to be the front stretcher bar (I am assuming this because there appears to be a boss on the rear of the near blade indicating a connection similar to that on the far blade). However this bar appears to continue beneath the blade and the stock rail? To further complicate matters, this front stretcher bar does not appear to match what I had assumed was the typical bar and wedge fixing of midland stretcher bars. Any thoughts much appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Something that old and with unknown provenance is difficult to use as an example TBH. It could be using secondhand or replacement components and is not guaranteed to be entirely Midland in origin. 3-way turnouts also complicate things somewhat by having two lots of operating rods and stretcher bars close together. However, this is I think a photo of an MR 3-way showing how one might have once looked. Each point has one short blade and one long blade, which confuses things quite a bit to the casual observer. The LH point lever operates the long blade of the RH turnout, whilst the RH point lever connects to the long blade of the LH turnout, which is on the side of the track nearest the camera. The LH point lever and its connection to the point blade may well be what you are after. The position of the RH point lever connection (to the nearside point blade) would be where I suggest the stretcher rod would be fitted on ordinary points. However, 3-ways are not a good example for what you want. To a large extent it is taking you down a blind alley. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) Something that old and with unknown provenance is difficult to use as an example TBH. It could be using secondhand or replacement components and is not guaranteed to be entirely Midland in origin. 3-way turnouts also complicate things somewhat by having two lots of operating rods and stretcher bars close together. However, this is I think a photo of an MR 3-way showing how one might have once looked. Each point has one short blade and one long blade, which confuses things quite a bit to the casual observer. The LH point lever operates the long blade of the RH turnout, whilst the RH point lever connects to the long blade of the LH turnout, which is on the side of the track nearest the camera. MRa.jpg The LH point lever and its connection to the point blade may well be what you are after. The position of the RH point lever connection (to the nearside point blade) would be where I suggest the stretcher rod would be fitted on ordinary points. However, 3-ways are not a good example for what you want. To a large extent it is taking you down a blind alley. Thanks for taking the trouble to do this. You are right about the casual observer ... which i am afraid in this case was me! "Each point has one short blade and one long blade' ... happily sorted things out. I assume the holes in the switch blades are because they would have been drilled in the shop for standard stretcher bar use .... but in the case of a 3 way turnout that would not be possible? The image is perfect for me to have a go at modelling the actuation .... assuming that the rod then links to a crank in my case. Regards Tim Edited October 19, 2017 by Lecorbusier Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 I am not sure that the rodding was connected to the stretcher rod on the Midland. The few photos I have found suggest that the rodding was connected directly to the nearest point blade. I suspect the rodding went under the stock rail and the point blade then curved round and up 180 degrees to be bolted to the point blade slightly further away from the tip than the stretcher bar. Unfortunately the only good photos I have seen show points operated by hand levers, e.g. Midland Wagons vol 2 introduction page (very clear) and Midland Railway Portrait plate 107. Circumstantial evidence that this also applied to points operated from signal boxes is that no stretcher rod ever seems to have anything attached to it in photos (other than the point blades!). Plate 156 in Midland railway Portrait is a very clear photo illustrating this point (sorry for the pun). Also the only MR drawing of a stretcher rod is just a plain rod with no indication that any operating mechanism was attached to it. Do you have any thought as to how locking on facing points was laid out ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Facing point locks were only applied to facing points used by passenger trains. I doubt your location would need them. I could be wrong, but weren't the turnouts on the running lines all trailing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 19, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2017 Hi Tim,Here is a drawing of a MR 15ft switch. It shows the rodding connection attached to the front stretcher rod as a dashed line: High-res version of this here: http://85a.co.uk/forum/gallery/2/original/2_191021_380000001.pngHere is the text from Allen (1915) which explains that there is "in all cases" a lug on the front stretcher rod to act as a pull rod:Lots more there about the design of the stretcher rod fixings and cotter pins if you want it?regards,Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 The Midland normally used economical FPLs (where a single lever, and thus rod, worked both the point and the FPL) for facing points which required locking because they were used by passenger trains. Unfortunately, although I can source photos for a number of designs of economical FPLs, I don't have one for the Midland version but doubtless someone can point you in the right direction - a goodly number remained in use well into the BR period. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Midland Railway EFPL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) Midland Railway EFPL. MRly EFPL .jpg I don't suppose on the off chance you would have a similar drawing for the arrangement on a typical midland trailing turnout without locking? Would a main line arrangement rodded back to the signal box have differed from actuation by hand lever? ..... meaning is the attached an anomaly or standard for sidings? I wish someone could turn up a drawing or better still a photographic example of the lug connection described earlier on the front stretcher rod which is a Midland example .... I have examples for other companies. All I have at the moment for the Midland is a dotted line on the switch drawing and a definitive text entry .... which is then directly contradicted by the examples posted - which definitely don't attach to the stretcher bar. Edited October 19, 2017 by Lecorbusier 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 I suspect there may be a date issue here - unless of course the Midland really did use different connections for hand-operated points. Photos are hard to find though - at least in the easy places. I doubt the Midland used exactly the same designs and principles all the way from 1844 to 1922. It will be interesting to see what transpires. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Have you tried Earnest Bates (Unsure of correct spelling) Trackwork site. Unfourtantly, I have lost the link, but a "Tinternet" search should find it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 http://www.oldpway.info/index.html but nothing useful, unfortunately Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 http://www.oldpway.info/index.html but nothing useful, unfortunately Many thanks for the link, now again "Book Marked". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted October 21, 2017 Author Share Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) I think that these two images also suggest that the actuation from the rodding is not connected to the front stretcher bar. Edited October 21, 2017 by Lecorbusier 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 That last one is slightly complicated as it looks like there is a ground signal with a point detector attached. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted October 21, 2017 Author Share Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) That last one is slightly complicated as it looks like there is a ground signal with a point detector attached. My reading is that there is a point detector rod running to the front of the nearest switch blade and linking to the ground signal. Then we have the front stretcher bar. Then we have the rodding which is behind the line of the front stretcher bar and appears to link separately to the switch blade just behind the stretcher bar. I think you can just make out the 'bump' of the 180 degrees attachment. Edited October 21, 2017 by Lecorbusier Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted October 21, 2017 Author Share Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) Here is another image which again shows the 180 degree actuation rod bend locating into the switch independent of the front stretcher bar. Masborough, 1907 It does seem to suggest that pre WWI at least the Midland connected rodding independently of the front stretcher bar certainly within sidings and goods yards. I am still hoping to turn up a mainline trailing turnout to see if the practice differed - we know it was different for facing due to the requirement for locking. Edited October 22, 2017 by Lecorbusier Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted October 22, 2017 Author Share Posted October 22, 2017 (edited) I think based upon what i have turned up to date that I am minded to think that at least in sidings and yards Midland point actuation pre WWI would generally have been separate to the stretcher bar and located on the near side to the rodding, connected to the stretcher from beneath the stock rail by turning the bar up through 180 degrees. I am assuming that the switch to which the rodding is attached would rely on the rodding to hold it in correct alignment to the stock rail and also to mitigate against lift? Here is a drawing of a Midland Stretcher bar - It is interesting to note that one end of the bar has an extension which houses into the stock rail (again to maintain correct alignment) ... I assume that this would be on the opposite side to the rodding fixing? Edit - correction, looking again at the drawing it would appear that there is no extension through the stock rail - I assume therefore that the switchblade relies on the undercut of the planing to ensure against lift? Edited October 24, 2017 by Lecorbusier Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted October 23, 2017 Author Share Posted October 23, 2017 At the risk of becoming a stuck record! here are some further images to substantiate the theory that the Midland pre WWI used separate rodding actuation to the turn out independent of the stretcher bars. Both of these instances clearly use rodding, and both are in mainline situations. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 23, 2017 here are some further images Hi Tim, Interesting that in the first pic there are 2 timbers in the switch front. In the second pic only 1 timber. Something else to get right, when adding the fishplates. Nowadays the switch front timbers are indeed timbers (12" wide). In pre-group days they were often plain sleepers (10" wide). Templot does include an option for this in the custom switch settings. So that's two more things to get exactly right in the face of conflicting evidence. Anyone got a pic showing a switch front of 2 timbers, one a timber and the other a sleeper? regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted October 23, 2017 Author Share Posted October 23, 2017 Here for completeness is a zoomed in detail of the rodding attachment Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted October 23, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 23, 2017 Clearly a switch front sleeper in that one, and only 1 of them. Notice also that the slide chairs on the right appear to have more-rounded corners than those on the left. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Clearly a switch front sleeper in that one, and only 1 of them. Notice also that the slide chairs on the right appear to have more-rounded corners than those on the left. Martin. .... and no v notch, but I think that it is all an optical illusion and that the left and right slide chairs are in fact matched pairs. I strongly suspect that if you were to draw the LH and RH chairs up on a 3D cad package and view them at the same angle as the photo but first from the left (as with the photo) and then from the equivalent righthand position, you would "see" the more-rounded corners change sides. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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