Precision Craft DCC/DC H0 Y6b 2-8-8-2 2195 Loksound engine won't go

[robmcg]

Hi Everyone,

 

Fool that I am I bought two versions of the lovely and impressive 2006-7 Precision Craft Models (similar to the Broadway Limited version) HO Norfolk and Western Y6b 2-8-8-2 with LokSound,   from sellers on Ebay who had many sales and 99.9-100% good feedback,  BUT did not test them when I received them 6-9 months ago because I didn't have a suitable test track, DC or DCC.

 

Now I do have a reliable test track, both were in original factory packaging, one appeared to have never been removed (had been sold 'as new'), but one is dead in every way, the other just makes the correct stationary engine sounds but will not run. On both Bachmann Spectrum DC power and Hornby Elite DCC power.

 

I cannot read the CVs in either engine using the Hornby Elite, I just get 'XXXX'

 

I have a third identical engine I bought cheaply, no box, slight damage, which runs perfectly although the sounds are rather loud! Other US steam models like the Bachmann Spectrum N&W Class A 2-6-6-4 run superbly on the test track.

 

I have taken care to insert the horizontal 8-pin plug carefully into each of the Y6bs just below the cab fall-plate, they are superb die-cast models with fine detailing, and wonder if any readers have any suggestions as to what I might try. I am loathe to take the body off engine and tender but suspect this is my only option, I have no electrical testing equipment, nor much dexterity.

 

It is all my fault, I should have opened a dispute and quite possibly would have got my money back, but too late now, I would like to explore the options for regaining some value in the models for re-sale. One is effectively dead, the other won't move, even with full voltage power.

 

below is my photo of the engine which does go, to give an idea of how good they are.

 

Any and all suggestions welcome.

 

 

best

 

 

 

 

[Miss Prism]

Reckon you'll need to strip it and get it into a plain vanilla DC mode first (without the chips and the DCC wiring), and see if it can move. (I know nothing about DCC!)

 

Magnificent beasts, those Y6bs.

 

Good luck.

[PaulRhB]

Few things to try, leave them on power for a while as if they are like the Broadway ones they seem to need a minimum charge in the capacitor.

Reset the decoder using the appropriate cv which should be in the instructions. If those don't work it might be a broken wire to the motor if the chip powers up. You have nothing to lose by taking it apart to check if there is power to the motor

[robmcg]

Thanks all for those answers, 

 

here is a review 

 

http://mrr.trains.com/news-reviews/staff-reviews/2006/07/precision-craft-ho-scale-nandw-y6b-2-8-8-2-steam-locomotive-delivers-excellent-sound-and-power

 

and an enlargement of the pic showing the layout of things, there are 4 screws holding the tender body on...

 

 

I shall take some brave pills.

 

Is that an 8-pin decoder attachment so I can put a blanking plug in for DC ?

 

Thanks again, I will keep you informed.

 

Cheers

 

edit. p.s. it says ESU sound, but the boxes and instructions say LokSound....   

Edited October 19, 2017 by robmcg

[PaulRhB]

Ah now I guess this might be an occasional ESU bug. I've had two locos 'die' and they didn't respond to reset or fiddling with cv's. What does the elite put out current wise btw?

What I found was by reading and saving the cv list on a programmer, SPROG or their own lokprogrammer, and rewriting the full file sorted it out. Something corrupts but doesn't show in the cv's. You would need access to a programmer but it's useful for these sound locos anyway and SPROG is a fair bit cheaper than the lokprogrammer but doesn't allow changing the sound recordings like their own unit does.

Edited October 19, 2017 by PaulRhB

[PaulRhB]

The locos I had it happen to were a g scale one with a XL loksound and a Bachmann 66.

The G scale one just refused to go again after changing direction and the OO one was just dead after a period in store. In both cases I compared the read off the chip to my stored file for them and there was no difference. When it happened to a friends loco I didn't have a stored file so just read the 'dead' chip and then rewrote it. I suspect quite a few ESU chips have been binned because of this when people don't have a programmer or don't think to try rewriting it

The fact that the sound works on one is a good sign as the sound side is more delicate than the motor side so rare for that to survive a problem and not the motor driver.

[robmcg]

Ah now I guess this might be an occasional ESU bug. I've had two locos 'die' and they didn't respond to reset or fiddling with cv's. What does the elite put out current wise btw?

What I found was by reading and saving the cv list on a programmer, SPROG or their own lokprogrammer, and rewriting the full file sorted it out. Something corrupts but doesn't show in the cv's. You would need access to a programmer but it's useful for these sound locos anyway and SPROG is a fair bit cheaper than the lokprogrammer but doesn't allow changing the sound recordings like their own unit does.

 

Hi Paul, the Elite puts out up to 4 amps. Not sure if that is potentially from one output.

 

I have removed the tender body and the 21-pin decoder and put an 8-pin blanking plug on the 8 socket thingamyjig  as shown in the photos below, the tender light comes on in one direction , but still dead as a door-nail as far as running is concerned on analogue DC.

 

I'm not at all comfortable about taking the engine body off, in fact have my doubts about putting the 4 screws back in the tender, having only one fully working hand, I think I might have to either buy a circuit tester (would it enable checking the power getting through the harness?) The front light comes on.  Maybe I should just ask someone else to do all this...

 

I put the 21-pin decoder back on and it still doesn't run, the lights work.  The sound doesn't go now (on DC, but it did before I put the blanking plug in  I think )  It takes me a while to convert to DCC, as I have to change the feed to the test track, as well as did out the hardly ever used Elite, power pack, adaptor, and feed, and haven't yet put together a suitable fishplate-join short feeder separately for the DC and DCC 

 

Oddly I have successfully re-wired Lucas British cars from top to bottom and used an ohmmeter for this and that, but that was 30 years ago,  and I kind of knew what every component did, and I guess it's just a confidence thing, I have difficulty with the very small bits in particular, but am generally ok with 'feeling' the 21-pin chip sockets onto the 21 pins.  Maybe I will buy a circuit tester, will it need to be one which has an ohmmeter? Do they come with useful probes?

 

Does the 8-pin blanking plug disable sound when the 21-pin sound thing is re-installed?

 

Do these pictures offer any clues at all?  I am out of my depth.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks to all for having the patienve to read all this.

 

Best,

[PaulRhB]

Unfortunately it's one of those things simple to test what's going on if you have the equipment, ie a programmer. Do you have another loco with a 21 pin socket you can test the decoder in so you can tell if it's that or the loco. At the moment it's looking like the loco but it's worth eliminating the decoder before you try taking the loco apart. If it is the loco it's probably just a loose wire.

[robmcg]

Unfortunately it's one of those things simple to test what's going on if you have the equipment, ie a programmer. Do you have another loco with a 21 pin socket you can test the decoder in so you can tell if it's that or the loco. At the moment it's looking like the loco but it's worth eliminating the decoder before you try taking the loco apart. If it is the loco it's probably just a loose wire.

 

Ah the sweet voice of reason,

 

I have now removed the 8-pin blanking plug and replaced the 21-pin decoder,  now there are no lights, no sound, nothing, but there was a slight spark when I connected the tender to the engine drawbar.  It now looks like this, I now have two Y6bs which are totally dead.

 

 

I take the point about eliminating the decoder, but would be happy to try all that AFTER by-passing the 21-pin decoder with the 8 pin plug and achieving at least some life on DC.  Is that effectively what I did? Or am I missing something.

 

I am averse to dismantling another other engines I have with DCC because I am so clumsy,  The models I have which are mostly 'as new' represent a small income in my retirement, and I might have a Bachmann G2a with a 21-pin but not sure, but in reading the issues people have with taking tender bodies off without damage... um, I'm reluctant at best..

 

Thanks again

[PaulRhB]

Yes you did which is why I suspect the loco assuming the blanking plug is labelled up the right way round

Unfortunately you're a bit remote to offer help directly from here

I had similar issues with Broadway locos after long storage and I can quite understand your worry if dexterity is an issue. No model shops with recommended dcc or loco repair expertise local?

[robmcg]

Yes you did which is why I suspect the loco assuming the blanking plug is labelled up the right way round

Unfortunately you're a bit remote to offer help directly from here

I had similar issues with Broadway locos after long storage and I can quite understand your worry if dexterity is an issue. No model shops with recommended dcc or loco repair expertise local?

 

There is one model shop which offered repairs three yeas ago and possibly still does, but it used to cost over $100 (NZ....US $70 ) just basically to have a look, and took a couple of months.

 

The blanking plug has a '10' next to one pin, 'DC' at one end and 'DCC-1001 copyright mark' at the other, there are no letters or numbers near the 8 sockets.

 

It required a LOT of pressure to remove the 21-pin chip,   did I put the 8-pin blanking plug in backwards? 

 

I have just removed the 21-pin chip again and installed the 8-pin plug the other way around, now I have lights correctly for direction, but still no movement, all on DC.

 

Thanks for your help by the way!

[PaulRhB]

Does sound like a broken wire somewhere and as the lights are correct I suspect the plug was the wrong way round.

Do you have a meter to test the continuity of a circuit? With the blanking plug in and tender connected you should get a circuit across the either side wheels as it goes via the motor. If it doesn't make a circuit then almost certainly a wire off. With the loco on it's own it's more difficult because there are 8 pins and two will be track, two the motor, at least two the lights and the other two unknown.

 

 

If you do then the motor may be the culprit. $100 is a bit steep just to look at it I agree especially when a basic continuity test could point you in the right direction in seconds.

[robmcg]

Yes you did which is why I suspect the loco assuming the blanking plug is labelled up the right way round

Unfortunately you're a bit remote to offer help directly from here

I had similar issues with Broadway locos after long storage and I can quite understand your worry if dexterity is an issue. No model shops with recommended dcc or loco repair expertise local?

 

I have now removed the 8-pin plug, replaced the 21-pin decoder, and replaced the 4 screws and secured the tender body,  and now there are no lights, nor sound, nor movement, which is rather like The Great Leap Backwards  but at least I now know I can remove a tender body at least, AND replace it, without a nervous breakdown.

 

I think perhaps I will maybe remove the engine body but am unsure how to diagnose/treat it other than looking for detached or broken wires, where a circuit-tester would presumably be essential?

 

I might try CV8 again tomorrow set to 8, as well.

 

I do apologise for my ineptitude and lack of logical planning here, but I lived in hope that the blanking plug might bring the beautiful model to life on DC.

 

 

Best,

 

Robbie

[robmcg]

Does sound like a broken wire somewhere and as the lights are correct I suspect the plug was the wrong way round.

Do you have a meter to test the continuity of a circuit? With the blanking plug in and tender connected you should get a circuit across the either side wheels as it goes via the motor. If it doesn't make a circuit then almost certainly a wire off. With the loco on it's own it's more difficult because there are 8 pins and two will be track, two the motor, at least two the lights and the other two unknown.

 

 

If you do then the motor may be the culprit. $100 is a bit steep just to look at it I agree especially when a basic continuity test could point you in the right direction in seconds.

 

Sorry my message just now got crossed in the mail, yes I will try what you advise.  Do you mean there should be 12v across the opposite wheels if the motor is getting power? Or if there is continuity? (commonality? making-a-circuit?) across the opposite wheels under any circumstances, or is that with power on, or always? 

 

I use an ohmeter to see if a wire is broken, or feed power like 12v to see if it is carrying power , so I'm not sure what 'making a circuit' means unless you mean touch the opposing wheels while power is on.

 

Sorry I don't comprehend well.

 

edit; As I understand it you are asking me to use an ohmmeter to test for continuity between opposing wheels, with tender connected and blanking plug installed the right way round, because in that condition there SHOULD be commonality via the motor windings, and thus if I applied current the engine would run.

Alternatively I apply power, 12v DC, to the model and touch probes to wheels on each side and it should read 12v, but I don't see how this could give an idea about where any fault or broken wire or duff motor exists.

 

I'm really struggling with this.

 

edit 2;

Do I need an ohmmeter to test continuity between opposing wheels or do you mean something else?

Edited October 20, 2017 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Obtain one of the multi-meters I linked to earlier, or a similar device, either from that or a local provider. They usually come with a set of leads (red and black, conveniently also the colour codes for DCC track power ) Bring the meter in operational condition (i.e. place the battery in the holder ) then either put it in 'continuity' or resistance measurement mode. Simply rotate the knob to the desired position, you may need to depress the knob before it allows rotation, depends on the model. If you have the meter on resistance-measurement setting, touch and hold the leads together, then read what's on the display. It should be a small number, something like 0.4 Ohms or similar. Keep that in the back of your head, or write it down somewhere. if the meter is on 'continuity' touching the leads together will make it beep. Now you're ready to measure stuff!

• first, open the tender and remove all plugs
• next, connect tender and loco, make sure the connector is correctly inserted. Keep it OFF the track!
• using the NMRA standard 9.1.1 (see attachment) measure for any shorts between the various pins on the 8-pin socket
• you should find that every combination bar one will read as open (i.e. there's no connection and the resistance is endless or it doesn't beep)
• the one connection that should provide you a reading is between pins 1 (orange) and 5 (grey), as this is the motor. if there isn't, a wire has broken.
• you may or may not get a reading between pins 2 and 7 and 6 and 7 (yellow, white and blue respectively) This is the case with a light bulb installed, as seems the case in your model.
• if all measurements work out to be OK, then the issue is most definitely the decoder itself.

s-9.1.1_connectors_2015.05.22.pdf

 

HTH!

 

Thanks Dutch Master,

 

I have bought a multi-meter , below,

 

 

Specifications: 

.DC Voltage measuring range: 200mv – 1000v accuracy (0.5% + 1) 

.AC Voltage measuring range: 200mv – 700v accuracy (0.8% + 3) 

.DC Current measuring range: 2mA – 20A accuracy (0.8% + 1) 

.AC Current measuring range: 20mA – 20A accuracy (1.0% + 3) 

.Resistance measuring range: 200 ohm – 2000Mohm (2.5% + 3) 

.Capacitance: 2nF -200Uf 

.Power: 9V 

.Largest display: 1999 

.Auto power off: yes 

.Transistor test: yes 

.Conduction buzzer: yes 

.Diode test: yes 

 

Package included: 

1X Bare multimeter machine 

1X User Manual 

2X Probe

 

and hope to be able to test all the sockets as you so kindly have referred to.  If all the probes bar the ones to the motor or lights prove open then that's good, but if 1 and 5 are open that's a broken wire or faulty motor?

 

p.s. my apologies again, I'm afraid I can follow only the most basic 'logic'.  Presumably if 1 and 5 are 'open' I will then be able to use the ohmmeter to discover which wire is broken and approximately where. To be honest the horizontal plug connecting the harness to the engine looks ok visually, and it still scares me somewhat  but I feel we may be getting somewhere. It is a long weekend here so I don't expect to see the multimeter until Wed next week but may be able to borrow one.

 

Cheers,

Edited October 20, 2017 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Thankyou all for your patience.

 

After a good night's sleep I am refreshed and optomistic, even to the point of enjoying fiddling with model trains!

 

It occurred to me last night that when I rebuilt older British cars full of Lucas Electrics the easiest way to 'diagnose' things was often actually simple substitution of components.

 

I have a good running DCC sound Y6b.  Why didn't I think of trying the engine and tender in various combinations with the engines and tenders of non-runners?

 

This  will give more clues, if not actually identify a broken wire or motor, while I wait for the circuit tester to arrive.  Of course there may be faults in both engine and tender of the two non-runners. 

It’ll be a little like a puzzle; Engine A, tender A (both good),  Engine B,  tender B (once had sound and lights), Engine C tender C (dead)  in any and all combinations.

I will photograph the 3 today if I can work out the logistics.

 

Above all I wish to thank readers for putting up with my uncomprehending mental blocks about ways to fix a model engine.

 

Photos will follow,

 

typo edit

Edited October 20, 2017 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Thwarted again.!

 

The excellent running Y6b 2-8-8-2, although lacking one front wheelset on the front tender bogie, runs smoothly and well.

 

I had thought it was a Precision Craft Models version just like the two non-runners, but being unboxed it may be that it is a Broadway Limited version.  No matter, the reviews in Model Railroader said they used the same tools.  

 

But no! The horizontal plug-socket under the cab fall-plate is very slightly different in dimensions, no amount of fiddling, even turning the harness un-naturally upside down, allows either tender plug to become snug in the cab housing of the 'other' engine.

 

 

above is 2195 (non-runner) with its tender,  behind it is 2191 (runner) with its tender.

 

 

a slightly different shot, each plug goes nicely into the relevant adjacent socket, no twisting nor undue force required.

 

 

here above 2195 with harness connected. Still a non-runner.

 

 

here are the two tenders, clear differences in plugs, twisting harness so they turn over does not feel right, nor does it allow fitting into the 'other' engine.

 

 

here are the two plugs which are nearly the same size.

 

 

but not quite.

 

 

so now we have non-runner 2195 on the test track, and runner 2191 in foreground.

 

Beaten again!

 

Suggestions welcome. I might try to make a short video of 2191 the 'runner' just as a temporary diversion, it also has smoke, of all things, I don't think is is electrical either, but nothing would surprise me!

 

Edit

 

 

no editing, sorry, just a camera shot.  cheers

 

edit 2   it's 2191 in foreground, not 2195

Edited October 21, 2017 by robmcg

[Phil S]

Unless you have identified each and every lead in both connectors - the probablility if you mix and match/rotate is that you will send wring voltage to places they shouldn't be !!!

 

A logical step wouls be to trace each wire back from the connectors - and to write down the results. Always useful for future reference.

[robmcg]

Unless you have identified each and every lead in both connectors - the probablility if you mix and match/rotate is that you will send wring voltage to places they shouldn't be !!!

 

A logical step wouls be to trace each wire back from the connectors - and to write down the results. Always useful for future reference.

 

Indeed you are right, of course.

 

I am no longer attempting to use the different plugs in different engines, they won't physically fit.   I would change engine-tender combinations only if the plugs and wiring were identical in appearance, and yes, your advice is right, there are no guarantees that even if they look the same they may in fact not be. Turning one over would indeed be stupid, but since they don't fit I have been spared that foolish misadventure.

 

As it stands now both 2195 Y6bs are fully assembled but dead, apart from one which has a firebox flicker. I am waiting for a circuit-tester to arrive by mail in a few days, (not easy to get to a shop)  which I hope will tell me whether its the chip, or motor, or wiring, or something else (a short?)  is at fault, then I can proceed to ether replace a chip, motor or wire as appropriate. At least that's how I rather hope it will turn out.

 

And what fine models they are!   If only they would go!

 

 

 

 

cheers

 

p.s. I am hoping that spares like chips and motors are available, if not they will have to be sold as 'spares or repair'.

Edited October 21, 2017 by robmcg

[robmcg]

In attempting further research about non-running Y6b locos by BLI or PCM  I came across this;

 

http://www.broadway-limited.com/faq.aspx

 

where there is reference to a reset button on Paragon 2 locos.

 

Also reference to many and various iterations of model, manufacturer, specifications and so on.

 

I also found a list of BLI 'discontinued' models, a very long list, but it included the Y6b code 15 DC/DCC sound models.

 

http://www.broadway-limited.com/discontinueditems.aspx

 

the Y6b is about 90% of the way to the bottom of the list.

 

I also found a site where a buyer, having had three failed-loco Y6b purchases from new, and having to wait weeks for replacement, ended up trying to fix a faulty 'chuff' unit himself. He was successful, but it required removal of cab underside detail and hand rails, before removing the loco body.  He was successful but I didn't get the idea that these models are particularly reliable or easy to fix.

 

http://www.rcgrabbag.com/archives/broadway-limited-y6b

Edited October 21, 2017 by robmcg

[robmcg]

In view of the above circumstances, unavailability of parts, trick repair if inside engine (for me)  I have decided to sell one perhaps both the 2195 models as 'spares or repair'.

 

An interesting few days.

 

Robbie

[10000]

I agree don't put them up for sale yet. Wait for the meter. 

 

There are people on here who will be willing to take you slowly through a process of testing to try and determine what is wrong.

[robmcg]

No, hang on to them a little longer. First see if you can find what exactly is wrong, after-all the meter you've ordered is en-route, if that is not repairable then there's plenty of time selling these on. I get the impression you're afraid to tackle this, in part because of cost but primarily lack of knowledge. There's not much we can do about the former, but we're happy to help on the latter! Just don't make decisions you'll bound to regret later in a hurry!

 

Alternatively, find someone who is able to attempt perform a repair in NZ, or even AU, for a modest fee.

 

Thankyou.

 

I will wait.  When I have recovered a little.   I might try a CV8 to 8 reset too.

 

Part of my problem (and yes, lack of knowledge is the main thing) is that I don't always deal very well with the limitations of having lost all fine touch and movement in my right arm and hand, and have to devise ways to do things with my left hand,  and I was always very right-handed and thought I was rather good at fine work. It's all from a very nasty motorbike crash in 1974, and an added complication is ###### it all from a wheelchair for the last 43 years, paralysed below chest level.

Not always relevant and usually people on places such as here won't know, and besides, we all have limitations, age, confidence, and so on.

 

I did devise successful ways to rebuild XK Jaguars and BMC Minis from the wheelchair back in the 1970s-1990s, including full re-wires but my speciality was head work on 12G940 Mini head castings, and AP Automatic 4-speed gearboxes. Didn't need help very often, built a workshop with hoists, rolling tables etc.  Got under cars to hook things up, but tended to break ribs when leaning over Jag bodywork! <g>

 

But enough of that.

 

I shall see what the ohmmeter suggests, and try to discover if it is the chip, the wiring or the motors...

 

Thanks again

 

typo edit

 

edit 2   I don't know why the censor has stopped me writing the word 'doing'... 

Edited October 22, 2017 by robmcg

[10000]

Rob,

thanks for the explanation.  That gives us things to think about when suggesting what you try.

 

Let us know when the meter arrives so that we can start to take you through a process of fault finding.

 

Do you have a loco cradle? If not is there anyone who could make one for you? I think in your situation you would find one useful.

[robmcg]

Rob,

thanks for the explanation.  That gives us things to think about when suggesting what you try.

 

Let us know when the meter arrives so that we can start to take you through a process of fault finding.

 

Do you have a loco cradle? If not is there anyone who could make one for you? I think in your situation you would find one useful.

 

 

I have been using folded flat bubblewrap on a tray on my lap, and an old stretch-wool black hat, which works well, locos seem to survive sitting on their side or top, depending on where the delicate bits are, I tend not to break things, the biggest limitation being that I have the use of one good hand and one insensate clumsy one.

 

Picking up these heavy die-cast engine+tender combinations with one hand is less than ideal ! I clamp my good hand over the cab, tender, firebox area after the harness is connected, I haven't got the dexterity to plug the harness in under the fall-plate with one hand while the loco is on the test track. Partly because I have no stomach muscles and cannot lean over things with two hands, if you get the drift. I can relax with the engine on the tray on my lap, use the numb hand to steady the model while applying the modest force required with my 'good' hand to plug the harness in. 

 

I had an engine cradle once and used it for Hornby engines but the body details were easily damaged, whistles, safety valves, etc  and I use the Hornby packaging as a  cradle where appropriate.

 

Cheers

Edited October 23, 2017 by robmcg