Precision Craft DCC/DC H0 Y6b 2-8-8-2 2195 Loksound engine won't go

[robmcg]

Well, I now have a circuit tester and am ready to check for continuity or open circuits.

 

One question; when I put the 8-pin blanking plug in, how am I to know which way is correct? There are no numbers or markings on the plug or near the sockets, except a '10' adjacent to one pin on the plug, and the letters 'DC' and 'DCC' +trademark at either end.

 

Also must I remove the 21-pin chip? It is very tight, and it worries me how much force is needed.

 

I will remove the tender body, insert the 8-pin plug, and plug the tender wires into the engine and then check for a measurement across opposite wheels?

 

Best,

[robmcg]

Yes, remove the 21 pin decoder, but do not place the 8-pin blanking plug! (btw, that has no orientation, safe from the fact that all 8 pins need to be in a hole ) Given you effectively have only one hand (one-and-a-half perhaps) you may find it useful to use some sort of wedge to prize the 21-pin decoder off. Toothpicks could help, clothing pegs might help too. For measuring, refer to my earlier message about this.

 

Thanks.  Pins and 5 should make a circuit, with all plugs out, plus possibly a couple of other combinations for lights.

 

What of this?

 

>>With the blanking plug in and tender connected you should get a circuit across the either side wheels as it goes via the motor. If it doesn't make a circuit then almost certainly a wire off. <<

 

from message 14. I presume this is a safe test too?

 

With the meter set to the continuity? symbol adjacent to ohms ranges it beeps when the leads are touched, when set to '200 ohms' it reads 1.4. I have the red lead in the right hand socket in the picture, 'V symbol' of the meter and the black lead in the second from right, 'com', these are marked with a schematic bridge and the words AC750V max and DC1000V above an earth symbol...  all the same as the photo below.  

 

 

Will not be able to dismantle tenders today, but probably tomorrow.

 

Thanks,

 

edit, on 200 ohms it reads 0.3 or 0.4   but it jumps around with many and various readings, I am presuming a reading of 0.4 ohms is most likely 'right' to measure the resistance through the two probes when touched together?

Edited October 25, 2017 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Oh joy!

 

The 'most dead' of the two Precision Craft Models N&W Y6bs now runs perfectly on DCC....  all I did was reset CV8 to 8 which is return to default.

It sounds and runs perfectly, complete with attempts to over-run my short 30" test track!  Using the Hornby Elite in program mode to do the reset, and track to run, of course. 

 

The other still seems dead, and is the one which originally made good sound but would not run, so I will continue my fumbling experiments on it...  nerve-wracking stuff, why didn't I think clearly and do a CV8 reset to 8 first! ?  When the CV8 was being reset on the one which now runs, it made bit of steam sounds while being written-to, the recalicitrant one never makes any sounds after I messed around with an 8-pin plug and remove/replaced the 21-pin chip, but it used to on DC..

 

Cheers,

Edited October 26, 2017 by robmcg

[Miss Prism]

 

 

[PaulRhB]

Double check the chip is fully down and the right way up.

[10000]

Ah the sweet voice of reason,

 

I have now removed the 8-pin blanking plug and replaced the 21-pin decoder,  now there are no lights, no sound, nothing, but there was a slight spark when I connected the tender to the engine drawbar.  It now looks like this, I now have two Y6bs which are totally dead.

 

Img_1401a_r1200.jpg

 

I take the point about eliminating the decoder, but would be happy to try all that AFTER by-passing the 21-pin decoder with the 8 pin plug and achieving at least some life on DC.  Is that effectively what I did? Or am I missing something.

 

I am averse to dismantling another other engines I have with DCC because I am so clumsy,  The models I have which are mostly 'as new' represent a small income in my retirement, and I might have a Bachmann G2a with a 21-pin but not sure, but in reading the issues people have with taking tender bodies off without damage... um, I'm reluctant at best..

 

Thanks again

 

First, great news about the one that is now working.

 

Is the one that is still dead the same one in your previous post where you mentioned a slight spark when you connected the drawbar to the tender. 

 

A spark like that is not good news and could indicate a short circuit. 

[robmcg]

First, great news about the one that is now working.

 

Is the one that is still dead the same one in your previous post where you mentioned a slight spark when you connected the drawbar to the tender. 

 

A spark like that is not good news and could indicate a short circuit. 

 

Thanks, yes, the spark occurred with the one which had sound but no movement and now doesn't go  (I think, but looking back, was it the one which now goes? I honestly cannot be sure), If it was theone with tender body off I forget whether the spark occurred when the chip was in or out, or whether the 8-pin blanking plug was in place, or the 21-pin chip?  was in place at the time, in any event it doesn't go, does not have sound now, but had lights at one stage, (sigh)

 

In view of the risk of a short in either engine or tender I presume it would be a bad idea to connect the good runner tender to the non-running loco, or indeed to connect the good runner loco to the non-runner tender?

 

I also forget if the spark occurred when there was some power applied to the track, it was sitting on the track (approximately), prior to having all wheels located carefully.

 

I must drive you guys nuts! 

[robmcg]

Double check the chip is fully down and the right way up.

 

Oh dear!

 

Looking at the photos in msgs  5 and 14 I may be guilty of extreme stupidity here, again!    

 

I honestly don't know why my brain disappears when confronted with basic things like, re-install  SAME WAY UP...  if indeed it is upside down, I seriously don't recall turning it over as per the photos might indicate.  

 

edit, if it is upside down, I presume the picture early in the thread of the factory photo should give sufficient clues, will it have definitely caused damage ?? I passed current through it, but not for long....

 

In any event I will remove the tender body and chip later today and re-install and set CV8 to 8 and hope....

Edited October 26, 2017 by robmcg

[robmcg]

here are the relevant pics to compare the factory appearance of the 21-pin decoder and my stupid re-assembly.

 

 

 

 

and I wondered why the chip re-fit was rather tight.!  (groan)

 

[robmcg]

You haven't read some threads on here, haven't you

 

Theoretically you should be able to do a swap, but prior to that, compare each tender (side-by-side if you can) if the wiring is exactly equal (meaning: the wires on each pin of the 8-pin socket go to the same wire on the connector to the loco). it should, but you'd never know Don't worry about inserting the 21-pin decoder the wrong way round: it won't fit as the plug and connector are keyed for this very purpose (they should be any way!)

 

Now, set your meter to the 200 Ohm range and measure, on the 8-pin connector and with tender and loco connected, between pins 1 and 5. This is, as you may recall from my earlier message, the motor and it'll give some sort of reading between 50-100 Ohms, might be more, could be less, as the model is equipped with a sizeable can motor. Numbering starts at the top-left pin if you have the socket lengthwise in front of you*, then goes counter-clockwise. Once you've established there is indeed a resistance between these pins, it means the motor and wiring to it are OK, change the setting on the meter to the beep-function and measure between each pin and all others. There should not be a connection between any of them, safe for the light bulbs I mentioned earlier

 

*see also the diagrams in the NMRA spec sheet I attached earlier!

 

Thanks,

 

I have just removed the tender body again and indeed I had installed the 21-pin chip upside down. It is now the right way up, no great force was needed, I don't think I hurt it.

 

The engine now makes steam noises again, just like it did before, I will do a CV8 to 8 then the ohmmeter tests you describe, but not until later today.

 

I'm presuming the ohmmeter tests on the 8 pins are with loco off the track.

 

Thanks again 

Edited October 26, 2017 by robmcg

[robmcg]

I have reset the non-runner on the programming track CV8 to 8 (default settings) , it still just makes noise, doesn't go when on powered track, just hisses quietly, air pumps sometimes etc..

 

Trying out my new ohmmeter, with the 8-pin plug, pins 1 and 5 are open, there is no reading, nor is there a reading on any other of the several but not combinations all I tried. I tried 1 and 5 either way, with the numbers as per the NRMA pdf ... No.1 top left, and 4 pins down, going anticlockwise, 5 bottom opposite ,with 8 above that adjacent to 1.

 

So there is no power getting to the motor?  Is it safe to connect the tender of the runner?  Identical in appearance... outwardly.

 

 

thanks as always to all,

 

edit; FWIW the headlight flashed a couple of times during the CV8 8 reset, and there was a little noise, the latter being the same as the other engine which responded to CV8 to 8 by coming to life when tested with track power..

Edited October 27, 2017 by robmcg

[chaz]

Just a thought - I bought a couple of second-hand Broadway On30 C-16s one of which had similar symptoms to your dead Norfolk Mallet. it turned out that one of the function buttons, when pressed, disables the motor. I'm sorry I can't remember which function button it was but a quick search on the net......?

 

Chaz

Edited October 27, 2017 by chaz

[10000]

OK putting it in the correct way and reset has got back sound but no movement.

 

The headlight flashing during reset is a common feature with some decoders indicating a reset has occurred (some flash after a short circuit).

 

A reset should have cleared any function key settings as well.

 

You say 1 and 5 are open which suggests a wire or motor issue.

 

Yes you could dive in and test the runner tender on the non runner but there could be differences in the wiring between the two that could be a problem. I have had issues with Hornby where tenders were not swappable because one loco/tender combination was wired wrong.

 

I would now do some testing on DC.

 

Remove the 21 pin decoder from the non runner tender and insert an 8 pin blank.

 

Place tender connected to loco on a DC track. Set to forward does the headlight come on? Set to reverse does the rear light come on? Does it move?

 

Now assuming the lights work but still no movement connect the non runner tender still with the 8 pin blank in to the running loco using the wiring harness from the runner.

 

If its lights work and its running then test again but with the wiring harness from the non runner.

 

Post when you have done this.

[Phil S]

An extra test option to the above -  -  but I would normally do this by unsoldering , which we wish to avoid at this stage - is to test the motor DIRECTLY with a 9V battery

 

You may be able to achieve it this way:

1/ Loco unplugged from tender - therefore it has no connection to the decoders and they are safe from damage.

2/ Ideally, 2 of the pins in the Loco connector should go to the motor .... and the ohm meter should have shown them with maybe 20-100 ohms as mentioned - but a wire may be broken,,,,so infinity.

 

3/ If you have a battery connector for the 9V battery PP3 type, with 2 bare leads - touch the leads to either terminal of the motor - it should run - swap and it should run in reverse.

( If you try ths with it on the test track - there will be no problem if it suddenly moves off and you lose contact with the motor .... it will stop but you will have proved it works. )

 

IF the above was successful - now use the meter and/or your eyes  - to identify the 2  indivual wires between motor and plug/socket - if a wire is not a short circuit when the meter is on each end, then there is probably a break inside it - look for cuts/kinks or it being trapped in the chassis for a reason  - this wire would then need replacing ....    you could then bypass THIS wire and the correspondng one on the other half of the connector/plug with a temporary lead - replugging the tender to the loco it should work.

 

Before risking damage to any deocder - I would prefer to see the motor running freely: I recently bought a Rivarossi Big Boy which had 2 stiff gear stacks

[tHANK GOODNESS AT THIS POINT FOR THE AUTO-SAVE RESTORE HAVING WORKED !!!]

 

I replaced the original motor with a  'Susu' Motor from Finland (about 5GBP inc post) - intended for Lima an Fleichmann Pancake Ringfield replacements -.

As it is small enough to fit within the boiler, I am tempted to fit 2, so that, like in G Scale, both sets of wheels can run independantly!

Edited October 27, 2017 by Phil S

[robmcg]

Obtain one of the multi-meters I linked to earlier, or a similar device, either from that or a local provider. They usually come with a set of leads (red and black, conveniently also the colour codes for DCC track power ) Bring the meter in operational condition (i.e. place the battery in the holder ) then either put it in 'continuity' or resistance measurement mode. Simply rotate the knob to the desired position, you may need to depress the knob before it allows rotation, depends on the model. If you have the meter on resistance-measurement setting, touch and hold the leads together, then read what's on the display. It should be a small number, something like 0.4 Ohms or similar. Keep that in the back of your head, or write it down somewhere. if the meter is on 'continuity' touching the leads together will make it beep. Now you're ready to measure stuff!

• first, open the tender and remove all plugs
• next, connect tender and loco, make sure the connector is correctly inserted. Keep it OFF the track!
• using the NMRA standard 9.1.1 (see attachment) measure for any shorts between the various pins on the 8-pin socket
• you should find that every combination bar one will read as open (i.e. there's no connection and the resistance is endless or it doesn't beep)
• the one connection that should provide you a reading is between pins 1 (orange) and 5 (grey), as this is the motor. if there isn't, a wire has broken.
• you may or may not get a reading between pins 2 and 7 and 6 and 7 (yellow, white and blue respectively) This is the case with a light bulb installed, as seems the case in your model.
• if all measurements work out to be OK, then the issue is most definitely the decoder itself.

s-9.1.1_connectors_2015.05.22.pdf

 

HTH!

 

Just to be sure, when you said, 'remove all plugs', do you mean remove the 21-pin chip?

 

 

As to the suggestions in the last two messages, I have yet to see if I can swap harnesses from the tender, are they a press fit into the white oblong housing at the tender end?

 

In previous adventures I did get lights working on DC power...  8-pin plug in no chip, as per photo.

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by robmcg

[robmcg]

OK putting it in the correct way and reset has got back sound but no movement.

 

The headlight flashing during reset is a common feature with some decoders indicating a reset has occurred (some flash after a short circuit).

 

A reset should have cleared any function key settings as well.

 

You say 1 and 5 are open which suggests a wire or motor issue.

 

Yes you could dive in and test the runner tender on the non runner but there could be differences in the wiring between the two that could be a problem. I have had issues with Hornby where tenders were not swappable because one loco/tender combination was wired wrong.

 

I would now do some testing on DC.

 

Remove the 21 pin decoder from the non runner tender and insert an 8 pin blank.

 

Place tender connected to loco on a DC track. Set to forward does the headlight come on? Set to reverse does the rear light come on? Does it move?

 

Now assuming the lights work but still no movement connect the non runner tender still with the 8 pin blank in to the running loco using the wiring harness from the runner.

 

If its lights work and its running then test again but with the wiring harness from the non runner.

 

Post when you have done this.

 

Will do, but this will take time, it exhausts me!  

 

Thanks,

 

pic shows general mess of working area.

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Cor blimey I never reaised the wiring harness could be removed from the tender like that....

[robmcg]

Here is the current state of things, ready for DC test... at least to see if lights work, then a tender-engine harness change.

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by robmcg

[robmcg]

On DC power as illustrated above the lights do not work in either direction, nor is there any sound.

 

edit; see next post, I reversed the 8-pin blanking plug.  Lights work directionally, no movement.

Edited October 27, 2017 by robmcg

[robmcg]

....

 

I would now do some testing on DC.

 

Remove the 21 pin decoder from the non runner tender and insert an 8 pin blank.

 

Place tender connected to loco on a DC track. Set to forward does the headlight come on? Set to reverse does the rear light come on? Does it move?

 

Now assuming the lights work but still no movement connect the non runner tender still with the 8 pin blank in to the running loco using the wiring harness from the runner.

 

If its lights work and its running then test again but with the wiring harness from the non runner.

 

Post when you have done this.

 

On DC is there any point in changing the tender-engine harnesses if the lights don't work?

 

edit; the lights work, directionally, but no movement.  (I reversed the 8-pin blanking plug)

 

 

 

 

 

edit 2    I think it will require extreme force to remove the harnesses from the tenders, this doesn't feel right.  Is it likely that the wires would be very tight in the whitish rectangular housing?

Edited October 27, 2017 by robmcg

[robmcg]

feeling I had nothing to lose, I used extreme force (by that I mean what I consider reasonable) and the Hornby plug removal tool to remove the harness from the tender.

 

 

Have I broken it?  It looked to me as if the black part should have come out of the housing, not the whole housing coming off as shown....  

there are two pegs to locate the white housing in the motherboard (is that what you call it?)

 

Force was applied to the black part of the harness only, which has what looks like a a locating ridge in the white housing. 

 

sigh.

Edited October 27, 2017 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Yup, that's a goner   Having said that, you may rescue the situation by snipping off the wires and soldering them directly to the PCB, but the success of that depends entirely on whether there's still some copper left to solder to and your soldering skills   Tip: next time you'd attempt such, use a toothpick to prise apart the parts of the connector. (inserting it between white and black parts)  If it doesn't work, leave it until you have confirmation it can be done.

 

Thanks.

 

I can safely say, yes, I agree.  I used force of sorts to pull the harness out of its socket, maybe 5lbs, feeling it with slight angles, applying pressure evenly at different points, with the tangs on the Hornby tool only on the black harness, waiting for a slight movement, and should indeed have waited for advice about the tightness of the harness in its socket. 

 

How else could I have separated the black harness from its tender socket?  Two hands and two tools maybe?  Or is it in fact an expected tight fit, or indeed 

 

In any event I guess I am now looking for complete new tender motherboard, which I doubt I am capable of fitting, in the unlikely event of finding a good one,  with no soldering skills of any but the most crude variety (like Lucas car instrument connections etc) .

 

There is no way a toothpick could have helped separate the black from the white.  

 

Thanks all for your patience.

Edited October 27, 2017 by robmcg

[robmcg]

moral, don't try to separate tight plug-socket connections without advice.  

 

a complete new tender chassis would be nice.   

[robmcg]

Thanks for your advice and guidance Dutch Master, it must have been frustrating.

 

I used similar force to try separating the black harness from the tender socket as some plug-socket connections I have come across before, perhaps a tad more, but I have generally been good at not breaking things like that, so I have let you down.

 

A good friend and I have subsequently had a further go at separating the black wire harness 'plug' from the broken white socket and both she and I are of the opinion that they would only come apart by destroying them, not that that is any use!

 

And yes there may be value in the decoder, two 1 1/4"speakers and perfect body etc. I did once make a living making small electrical components, chokes, transformers and such, with lots of soldering, but we had a nice dedicated workshop and I had two hands then...  and the very fine soldering these days is somewhat finer in scale if not in theory.

 

Once again my sincere thanks for your patience.  A quiet cup of tea now, I think. 

 

edit, a search on the web for model train DCC repairers has not been fruitful, and I doubt that Australian repairers would work out well, the cost of parcel post from NZ to and return Aus is horrendous (2nd class package can be 3 weeks one way from Aus and about NZ$80+ UKP40 each way) , it is cheaper usually and quicker to the UK.  But I am open to suggestions, the most appealing one right now is to sell it as damaged non-running.

Edited October 28, 2017 by robmcg

[Phil S]

Phil: retain the removed lead , plug and socket for now.

You may be able to grip the white body in a vice whilst pulling / easing with a Stanley knife blade or the Hornby tool....working your way around as evenly as possible until it comes free.

 

Then you should be able to search on eBay or component retailer's sites. Eg Farnell / RS Etc for the type used.

If you consider a replacement could not be fitted back onto the PCB, then look for an 'inline' version with attached leads which could then be soldered directly to the adjacent track or components on the PCB ....possibly having to gently scrape off the protective varnish first.

 

Hopefully testing of the decoder from this loco in the known working loco has proved positive.

Esu do offer a decoder replacement service which you can read on their website.... But you may have to use chrome/google to translate from the German version to find it. Hopefully cost plus postage is less than new!

 

What about the PCBs?...

Square-on close up photos of each board on both sides might allow the connections to be worked out of all the track.... Looking for 0 ohms on the meter...

 

If the worst comes to the worst???

What connections do you actually need to make the loco work?.....

Left side wheels - loco and tender - pickups to a common wire(s)( preferably black) (tender and loco separately for now)

Right side wheels - loco and tender - pickups to a common wire (s)( preferably red) (tender and loco separately for now)

 

A grey wire to a terminal on the motor and an orange wire to the other motor terminal - be prepared to swap these over because when the right hand side is positive the loco should go forward.

 

Whether you use Veroboard/ copper strip board or solder to back of an 8 pin nem socket, and with at least a 4way JST plug and socket ( as used by Hornby and available on eBay with 4 different coloured leads) to plug the tender to the loco, you will now have ( with a blanking plug in the nem socket) a basic working DC loco.....then swap the plug for a decoder ( perhaps a silent one at this stage) and you have a working DCC fitted loco.

 

 

For sound = 2 wires ( often brown is used ) to the speaker. Phase only relevant if 2 or more speakers are fitted.

 

Once you have enjoyed seeing it work again...

 

Then, ' at your leisure ' look at the remaining wires and add them in a similar way.... LEDs are also preferable to bulbs, but this maybe a step too far for now.

 

A important question with US manufacturers.... What voltage bulbs did they use? Are they 12-16V rating???? Or 3vmicro bulbs?.... Probably with resistors for them on the PCB ????

 

If you leave them as bulbs, then expect them to fail more often than on analogue (especially 12v bulbs)... Because when used on DCC they will be full voltage full brightness and on more often.... So we're out faster ( experience from LGB !)

 

Note that using 'standard colours' helps fault finding but does not affect electron flow 8-). The cheap prewired JST leads use red black yellow and white... So I use the yellow and white for the motor connections. Of course, standard Nem colours for the extra wiring ate Blue = common positive, white -ve forward lights, yellow negative reverse direction lights, green and violet, if present, for other switched effects eg firebox or cab light or smoke generator. These manufacturers have used black because they are visible... Hornby do the same and wiring errors can result!.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Phil S