3D printed wagons from R21 - GER brakevans and LTSR horse box

[rue_d_etropal]

I had not done much with wagons. Tend to be harder, and they need extra detail to justify cost, but Igot a request from Andy down at KESR for an ex SECR brakevan which they have at the railway.

A relatively simple shape, but all that planking meant some thinking about thicknesses

Anyway this is it

I will be concentrating on coaches, but every so ften a wagon for variety.

Edited July 21, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[Kelly]

I had not done much with wagons. Tend to be harder, and they need extra detail to justify cost, but Igot a request from Andy down at KESR for an ex SECR brakevan which they have at the railway.

A relatively simple shape, but all that planking meant some thinking about thicknesses

Anyway this is it

I will be concentrating on coaches, but every so ften a wagon for variety.

Looks pretty good. Might be better though if there was an option to have the chassis seperate from the body.

[rue_d_etropal]

a separate chassis has been considered, and can easily split the design. With any design there are always suggestions for alternativ options, and it can get over complicated to do everything. Original suggestion was for a complete brakevan, and I think most people would want that. Cost wise I amnot sure how much interest there is in wagons, and a body for this would be very easy to scratchbuild. A body on its own would not cost that musch less. Having said that an N gauge version might be body only.

[Kelly]

a separate chassis has been considered, and can easily split the design. With any design there are always suggestions for alternativ options, and it can get over complicated to do everything. Original suggestion was for a complete brakevan, and I think most people would want that. Cost wise I amnot sure how much interest there is in wagons, and a body for this would be very easy to scratchbuild. A body on its own would not cost that musch less. Having said that an N gauge version might be body only.

 

in 4mm, wagons are likely to be much more viable than coaches at current prices I think, especially opens.

[Kelly]

Another reason to consider seperate body/chassis is to allow for any problems with the printing, if the body warps even slightly, aligning the axles properly will become very difficult with  a combined chassis, where as with it seperate it can be fettled and altered to get it to sit properly.

[Trog]

in 4mm, wagons are likely to be much more viable than coaches at current prices I think, especially opens.

 

Good way of building confidence too, people who have had a good experience with a couple of wagons more likely to risk a larger dearer item.

 

Could you design a wagon so that those who want finer detail underneath could perhaps cut off the moulded on axleguards etc and then fit a brass unit between the solebars, perhaps then reusing the springs and axle boxes.

 

While you are in brakevan mode what about the LSWR road van that was built for the WD in WW1 then sold/leased to quite a few railways. Might suit a few people I know I would have one, particularly if I could find out what the LNWR/LMS livery and numbers were for them. 

[rue_d_etropal]

I have drawings for most of the LSWR vans, and one of those combined ones would be interesting. I want to see how the SECR one actually works out.

 

One another thing about the chassis. It is a bit chunky , but that is 3D printing, but the vast majority of people in the hobby would be happy with that. It is only a small minority who actually build fine scale. The drift in the hobby is towards r2r asr2r models are better, and many are either not that good or are not prepared to build a complex kit. I am aiming something at  those modellers , so that they can 'build' something and get the satisfacton of doing so. I feel some are keen to see it move in the r2r direction, but that risks leaving a large void inbetwen the kit/scratch builders and those who just use r2r. This is not meant to be a critisism of some in the hobby, just being realistic.

[JSpencer]

I was - funny enough - after such a van after seeing her on the KESR.

 

Will be interested in buying.

[Edwardian]

I had not done much with wagons. Tend to be harder, and they need extra detail to justify cost, but Igot a request from Andy down at KESR for an ex SECR brakevan which they have at the railway.

A relatively simple shape, but all that planking meant some thinking about thicknesses

Anyway this is it

I will be concentrating on coaches, but every so ften a wagon for variety.

 

Very nice.  What is the vintage of the prototype, do you know?

[rue_d_etropal]

according to books these were built between 1898 and 1914. The early ones only had the cover one end like the similar Midlands ones.

[JSpencer]

Agree, Southern wagons an illustrated history gives those dates.

 

The KESR van 2010 SECR number or 55371 SR number is one of the original SER batch built in1898 and later rebuilt to the above form (originally open ended one end, no doors on the balcony on the other) between 1914 and 1920. That said those built from 1910 onwards already were double balconies with doors.

 

I sure hope we can buy a sample at some time.

 

Side tracking a little, Bachmann could do the Dance Hall brake as its chassis design was used on the SR pillbox.(the SR considering the Dance halls accommodation excessive).

[bbishop]

according to books these were built between 1898 and 1914. The early ones only had the cover one end like the similar Midlands ones.

These were soon modified to be covered both ends. There were still differences to those built with covers at both ends.

 

Bill

[Guy Rixon]

The version with two covered verandahs arrived c1910 on the SECR (the original MR design may have been around earlier).

 

As a finescaler, I'd be glad to see a wagon like this as separate prints for the body and chassis. I'd probably buy the body and build the chassis myself.

 

I don't actually need a SECR 6-wheeled brake as I already have one and an etched kit for another. However, I do need some of the ex-SER 4-wheel brake-vans. Those are almost virgin territory: I think only one of the 6 or so variants has been done as a resin kit.

[autocoach]

Although undergoing change of ownership, there were/are several varieties of "dance hall" SECR brake van plastic kits in the Cambrian range. This is the old URL which is still available until the new owner completes his online store.

 

http://cambrianmodels.co.uk/lbseswkits.html

 

Unfortunately the proposed LSWR Dia. 1543 brake van proposal has disappeared with the change in ownership of Cambrian.  Would you please consider that as an alternative. I understand the 1543 was sold to and used by several other railways. 

Edited October 21, 2017 by autocoach

[rue_d_etropal]

I am looking at other wagons/vans to do, but my main interest at the moment is coaches and railmotors.

There seem to be so many vaiations with some wagons, so that can give me a problem, deciding which to produce. Had not noticed the original door on open end was not a door at all. Must have be difficult when they converted them. I had not realised the preserved one was one of the early ones converted.

When it comes to finescale, I am not even trying to aim at that market, certainly not separate bodies and chassis. One problem is minimum plastic thickness, and it is possible to hide some of this only if the chassis is attached.

It is not possible to satisfy everyone, so I prefer to try to provide something for those who need most help. If you aim your sights high, then you should be able to perform to that level, and if there are no kits, then scatchbuilding is best way to end up with what you want. I would rather provide something , from which someone can end up with something they are proud of, rather than(as I suspect might happen), have comments that something is not quite right. There is far too much of that with respect to some of the excellent r2r models currently being produced(and I won't even mention the incorrect distance between the rails!).

[CarriageShed]

I've just bought one of the SECR brake vans in N Gauge. I'm modelling an ex-LSWR region but couldn't refuse the chance of a different model of brake van even so.

 

There was quite a bit of classic 3D printer 'ribbing' on the roof which needed a fair bit of rubbing down with wet-n-dry paper, and the edges of the railings and posts are a little 'fluffy', but I think that it'll look pretty good once painted up. It's going to be tricky to get the red ends painted up in some places, and a test fit of Farish wagon wheels on the chassis suggests that this is going to be tricky too - I'm afraid of snapping something off. Even so, I'd be happy to buy more along the same lines.

 

I've noticed that there's a gap in the market when it comes to printing new 3D bodies for existing Union Mills N Gauge loco chassis. At the very least there are a number of Drummond ex-LSWR loco classes that will fit the existing T9 and Class 395 chassis without looking too 'wrong' with slightly incorrect wheel sizes. I'm going to have a try at hacking the metal bodies for a couple of classes but more options would be a big bonus. A watercart tender would also be a huge boon for LSWR/Western District/ Southern Region N Gauge modellers. Now that would be a relatively easy 3D print...

[rue_d_etropal]

glad to have feedback. I have looked at some LSWR brake vans . Initially I was not sure how much interest there would be, as it takes longer to design a wagon than a coach(possibly because I have not worked out a standard design path yet). 

At the moment I am concentrating on rolling stock and powered units, my own interest is HO, and only when I a certain of a chassis will I do consider a loco model, unless it is something there is interest in. I tend to switch between types of designs just to keep my own interest, so suspect  may look at doing something loco or wagon soon. When Bachmann release their new version of a J72 it should provide chassis for most 060 locos I want myself, so I may actually spend quite  bit of time doing locos then.  I have Jim Russell's book on SR locos, which is good enough to do most designs. 

 

WSF is fluffy, but when you know how to work with it , I consider it better than other plastics. WSF is the strongest of the plastics ,is UV proof, and can be painted with ANY water based paint, even cheap emulsion paint pots. Only issue is actually the limited range of green , but easy enough to mix from blue and yellow.  To smooth down ridges, as you say, wet n dry is best, if that is the green anti clog paper I use. It can also be scraped carefully with knife blade. 

One worry I had with the N gauge design was fitting wheels. I did not want to modify the design unless it was absolutely necessary. I had found my own HO models could easily take HO/OO wheels so knew the OO version would be OK, similarly the TT3 version on 12mm track, but unsure about the N gauge version. Then again N gauge is slightly under gauge, but only slightly. 

 

 

Again, for future models, I am happy to look at specific requests just list them. I thought the Union Mills models were tender driven, also I suspect being metal they use that weight to improve traction, a problem I have found with using some N gauge chassis myself for narrow gauge.

[rue_d_etropal]

My first standard gauge wagon was the common 16ton coal wagon. Initially I had trouble finding scale drawings(typical as everyone considered it too common to be documented!)

With upping up scale for some other designs, I experimented with this design, added and modified some detail, and also tested out versions with and without a floor.

I could not see much point in doing one for O gauge, but there are loads of different 16t designs so might do one. Gauge 1 looked better, and was pleasantly surprised at lowish price. Doing the chassis sepaparely from body was actually cheaper than all in one piece. Removing the floor did reduce price enough to make it worth while.

[CarriageShed]

glad to have feedback. I have looked at some LSWR brake vans . Initially I was not sure how much interest there would be, as it takes longer to design a wagon than a coach(possibly because I have not worked out a standard design path yet). 

At the moment I am concentrating on rolling stock and powered units, my own interest is HO, and only when I a certain of a chassis will I do consider a loco model, unless it is something there is interest in. I tend to switch between types of designs just to keep my own interest, so suspect  may look at doing something loco or wagon soon. When Bachmann release their new version of a J72 it should provide chassis for most 060 locos I want myself, so I may actually spend quite  bit of time doing locos then.  I have Jim Russell's book on SR locos, which is good enough to do most designs. 

 

WSF is fluffy, but when you know how to work with it , I consider it better than other plastics. WSF is the strongest of the plastics ,is UV proof, and can be painted with ANY water based paint, even cheap emulsion paint pots. Only issue is actually the limited range of green , but easy enough to mix from blue and yellow.  To smooth down ridges, as you say, wet n dry is best, if that is the green anti clog paper I use. It can also be scraped carefully with knife blade. 

One worry I had with the N gauge design was fitting wheels. I did not want to modify the design unless it was absolutely necessary. I had found my own HO models could easily take HO/OO wheels so knew the OO version would be OK, similarly the TT3 version on 12mm track, but unsure about the N gauge version. Then again N gauge is slightly under gauge, but only slightly. 

 

 

Again, for future models, I am happy to look at specific requests just list them. I thought the Union Mills models were tender driven, also I suspect being metal they use that weight to improve traction, a problem I have found with using some N gauge chassis myself for narrow gauge.

 

Hi Simon

 

For some reason I've only just received a notification of your reply, but better late than never I suppose.

 

I may need to drill out the axle sockets on the N Gauge SECR van for the wheelsets to be able to fit properly, but that's an easy enough prospect. I'm by no means an expert modeller but I can handle minor tweaks like that to get a 'kit' working. I've been distracted lately by detailing work on my two King Arthur white metal kit locos, but I hope to get back to work on the brake van soon, and then I'll be able to report back on progress.

 

Union Mills locos are indeed tender driven. The metal in their bodies and tenders really does give them a tremendous amount of traction. Hopefully a replacement loco body could be packed with added weight anyway, and the tender should have space at either end for some weight to be added. How much precisely will require some experimentation. If you're really interested in trying this then I can suggest a loco class that's similar to the Drummond T9 and can use the same loco wheels without looking especially wrong (for the average N Gauge modeller, at least).

 

As for a watercart tender, the three-wheel UM drive is unsuitable as the wheels are incorrectly spaced. I haven't done it myself but a more experienced modeller with the forum handle of DorsetMike usually replaces the UM drive with a Fleischmann tender drive from a 4-6-0 loco (Cat No 7160/61). Unfortunately this is quite a chunky beast - too wide - although apparently it can be filed down a little.

 

The Fleischmann drive typically goes under a Langley Models S15 tender body (Ref B17) to provide a watercart, but again the tender body is too wide and doesn't quite look the part. A 3D watercart body over a filed-down Fleischmann chassis would be better, I think. If it could be made without a coal load, and with a sunken coal area then this could be packed with lead weight and covered with a thin layer of real coal to hide it. A bit more weight could probably be added inside, in front of and behind the motor.

 

All theoretical for me, as I've not done any tender swaps as yet. But even without that, the 3D loco bodies would be a great addition to the options for customising UM locos.

 

Peter

[rue_d_etropal]

At the moment I am looking at coaches and railcars, plus doing resizing of existing designs. I want to do more locos, but not sure when. As I am now doing my designs in scales from N up to Gauge 1, I am kept busy. I have even resized one model down to 2mm scale, which is actually not too difficult as I then only offer it in FUD.

One option for weight in locos might be to get ten cast in brass. I know some N gauge modellers do this, but noit sure what would need to be done to design to make it worthwhile. I believe SW actually 3D print a mold then cast from it.

It doesn't surprise me that you need to drill out the axlex boxes. N gauge, and infact any 9mm gauge, suffers from some overscale with respect to wheels, and my designs are just resizing of bigger scales. I have wondered whether it is better to have or not have chassis 3D printed. Cost wise it is not much difference, and chassis can be cut off.

As for delay in message, I have found that some notifications from SW are delayed. Not sure why, but I think I have sold another item, and find it is just a delayed message. I did hav a problem with one email ccount, with no notifications from SW getting through. Direct emails from SW did get through. I created a new email account anf now only use that for SW. The old account still seems to work with other emails, as far as I can tell.

[hmrspaul]

My first standard gauge wagon was the common 16ton coal wagon. Initially I had trouble finding scale drawings(typical as everyone considered it too common to be documented!)

Plans available

 

Bartlett, P., Larkin, D., Mann, T., Silsbury, R., and Ward, A. (1985) An illustrated history of BR wagons, Volume 1 published by Oxford Publishing Company, 192 pages.

 

Drawings: slope-sided mineral ex WD 1/100 ; Mineral weld ex WD 1/102; ex SNCF Mineral 1/112 ; Weld Mineral 1/108 ; Weld Mineral rebody 1/108 ; Double door Mineral 1/110 ;  Double door VB Mineral 1/119 & 1/120 ; Double door Mineral rebody ; Double door Mineral 24.5t 1/115 ; Ironstone tippler 1/181.

 

Fidczuk, Peter. (1991a) The 16ton steel mineral wagon, part one Prewar and wartime designs.   Modellers Backtrack vol. 1 (part 3) pp 124 - 133.

     

Drawings - official of the slope sided mineral, Hurst Nelson 14/16t private owner (435), ex MWT/SNCF diag. 1/112 (119).

 

 

Fidczuk, Peter. (1991b) The 16ton steel mineral wagon, part two Later Pre-Nationalisation    developments.  Modellers Backtrack vol. 1 (part 4) pp 148 - 156.

 

Drawings - LNER diag. 188/BR diag. 1/103 ex MOT rivet (439); BR diag. 1/105 ex MOT rivet (418); BR diag. 1/102 ex WD welded (123).

Drawings - LNER diag. 188/BR diag. 1/103 ex MOT rivet (439); BR diag. 1/105 ex MOT rivet (418); BR diag. 1/102 ex WD welded (123).

 

 

Fidczuk, Peter. (1991c) The 16ton steel mineral wagon, part 3: Developments under British Railways. Modellers Backtrack vol. 1 (part 5) pp 220 - 230.

Drawings - BR diag. 1/108 welded (116); BR diag. 1/109 riveted (117); BR diag. 1/108 rebody welded.

 

Larkin, David & Mann, Trevor (1983b)  British Railways 21 ton Mineral Wagons. Model Railway Constructor vol. 50 (part 595) pp 637 - 641.

 

Drawings - Welded double door diag. 1/107 (126); Riveted double door diag. 1/110 (127); VB double door with SAB diag. 1/120 (131) and manual load  diag. 1/119 (130)

 

Larkin, David & Mann, Trevor (1983c) British Railways 21 ton Mineral Wagons - the rebuilding programme.  Model Railway Constructor vol. 50 (part 596) pp 708 - 711 & 697.

 

Drawings - Double door welded rebody; single door welded rebody.

 

Paul Bartlett

[CarriageShed]

At the moment I am looking at coaches and railcars, plus doing resizing of existing designs. I want to do more locos, but not sure when. As I am now doing my designs in scales from N up to Gauge 1, I am kept busy. I have even resized one model down to 2mm scale, which is actually not too difficult as I then only offer it in FUD.

 

In which case I'll hold on for now and just hope for locos in the future. In the meantime, some LSWR coaches would be very useful. I hack down old Farish suburbans for detailing and they come out pretty well, but of course they're not diagram-accurate.

 

 

 

It doesn't surprise me that you need to drill out the axle boxes. N gauge, and in fact any 9mm gauge, suffers from some overscale with respect to wheels, and my designs are just resizing of bigger scales. I have wondered whether it is better to have or not have chassis 3D printed. Cost wise it is not much difference, and chassis can be cut off.

 

Believe me, I'd rather have the six-wheel brake van and have to drill out the axle boxes than not have the van at all. Most N gauge wagon and van 3D prints could probably be added to a Peco chassis (if that makes it easier for the bulk of your prints), but reproducing a six-wheel chassis would involve quite a lot of cutting up.

 

 

As for delay in message, I have found that some notifications from SW are delayed. Not sure why, but I think I have sold another item, and find it is just a delayed message. I did hav a problem with one email ccount, with no notifications from SW getting through. Direct emails from SW did get through. I created a new email account anf now only use that for SW. The old account still seems to work with other emails, as far as I can tell.

 

I actually meant the RMWeb notification that you'd posted a reply. Again I didn't get a notification that you'd responded yesterday, so today I unfollowed the thread, refreshed the page, and followed it again. Perhaps that reset will make a difference.

[rue_d_etropal]

Locos will be done in the future. I have the drawings.

I am started to get more specific requests, ncluding locos.If they hit my desk at right time9ie I have not started on a new desoign), I might start on the one requested straight away.

 

For LSWR coaches I only have the book on Southern  push pull coaches which includes the gatestock. I have already done the Plymouth stock(at least it can be run as LSWR) but plan to do the others( as welll as the steam railmotors), including my own version of what Kernow have just released for OO. The gates would have to be added or accepted as more solid versions. Even in FUD you can't get the detail down that far!

 

Just pleased that people like the brakevan. It was something new for me. Doing the chassis is not too difficult, even lining up the axleboxes is easier on the computer than in reality, assuming I get first one in correct position.

 

Delays in notifications/emails are getting more common. I gather some of the problems are being caused by incompatibility between servers on the web globally, meaning some messages either just disappear or get held up.

[CarriageShed]

I have already done the Plymouth stock(at least it can be run as LSWR) but plan to do the others( as welll as the steam railmotors), including my own version of what Kernow have just released for OO. The gates would have to be added or accepted as more solid versions. Even in FUD you can't get the detail down that far!

 

Just pleased that people like the brakevan. It was something new for me. Doing the chassis is not too difficult, even lining up the axleboxes is easier on the computer than in reality, assuming I get first one in correct position.

 

Delays in notifications/emails are getting more common. I gather some of the problems are being caused by incompatibility between servers on the web globally, meaning some messages either just disappear or get held up.

 

I saw the gatestock in N, but that's not remotely applicable for the Bournemouth region that I'm modelling. Mind you, that's not to say that I might not have a pair one day just for the sake of completion.

 

I'll get the brake van completed as soon as I can so that you can see how it comes up in N.

 

Unfollowing this thread and then re-following it actually worked. Notification arrived straight away!

 

PM sent regarding LSWR books.

[Spitfire2865]

 

One option for weight in locos might be to get ten cast in brass. I know some N gauge modellers do this, but noit sure what would need to be done to design to make it worthwhile. I believe SW actually 3D print a mold then cast from it.

 

For brass, Shapeways actually uses lost wax casting where they print the master in wax.  

Decent results too.  I got some crossheads in brass for a G3 loco.